I'm just looking at the last page here, so I may be out of context, but something very important to keep in mind is knowing who the comicbook audience was for decades: young white males.
They were the ones buying and reading the comics more than any other demographic. So, sure, it makes sense to tell things through that lens. Luckily now, however, things are more equitable and interesting, if you will.
[QUOTE=Wandering_Wand;4717017]I'm just looking at the last page here, so I may be out of context, but something very important to keep in mind is knowing who the comicbook audience was for decades: young white males.
They were the ones buying and reading the comics more than any other demographic. So, sure, it makes sense to tell things through that lens. Luckily now, however, things are more equitable and interesting, if you will.[/QUOTE]
For sure. You write for your target audience and one can pull the stories apart a zillion ways but thats hardly a big achievement given how ridiculous the premises are.
it would be great if there was a John Stewart mini series that managed to incorporate several of the black heroes of DC. Don't "announce" every guest star. Just do it.
[QUOTE=Wandering_Wand;4717017]I'm just looking at the last page here, so I may be out of context, but something very important to keep in mind is knowing who the comicbook audience was for decades: young white males.
They were the ones buying and reading the comics more than any other demographic. So, sure, it makes sense to tell things through that lens. Luckily now, however, things are more equitable and interesting, if you will.[/QUOTE]
And yet, as a white dude, I don't find the kids who inherit sole control of billion-dollar companies (Wayne, Stark, Danny Rand, etc.) to be all that relatable, no matter how white or male they are. Ditto the aliens (Superman) or Norse gods (Thor) or WW2-era super-soldiers (Cap) or alien space cops who might be reincarnated Egyptian royalty (WTFman).
I always felt it was more of an excuse than anything. I could read and enjoy stories about Martian Manhunter, or Shadow Lass or Machine Man or Donald Duck or Casper the Friendly Ghost, and it never really mattered that they weren't white dudes. It feels explicitly pandering to white fear to not have showcased more black heroes back in the day, because white dudes don't feel threatened by imaginary aliens or robots or anthopomorphic animals the way they do around black men.
[QUOTE=Sutekh;4717481]And yet, as a white dude, I don't find the kids who inherit sole control of billion-dollar companies (Wayne, Stark, Danny Rand, etc.) to be all that relatable, no matter how white or male they are. Ditto the aliens (Superman) or Norse gods (Thor) or WW2-era super-soldiers (Cap) or alien space cops who might be reincarnated Egyptian royalty (WTFman).
I always felt it was more of an excuse than anything. I could read and enjoy stories about Martian Manhunter, or Shadow Lass or Machine Man or Donald Duck or Casper the Friendly Ghost, and it never really mattered that they weren't white dudes. It feels explicitly pandering to white fear to not have showcased more black heroes back in the day, because [B]white dudes don't feel threatened by imaginary aliens or robots or anthopomorphic animals the way they do around black men.[/B][/QUOTE]
Yes Yes Lawd!!
[QUOTE=Sutekh;4717481]And yet, as a white dude, I don't find the kids who inherit sole control of billion-dollar companies (Wayne, Stark, Danny Rand, etc.) to be all that relatable, no matter how white or male they are. Ditto the aliens (Superman) or Norse gods (Thor) or WW2-era super-soldiers (Cap) or alien space cops who might be reincarnated Egyptian royalty (WTFman).
I always felt it was more of an excuse than anything. I could read and enjoy stories about Martian Manhunter, or Shadow Lass or Machine Man or Donald Duck or Casper the Friendly Ghost, and it never really mattered that they weren't white dudes. It feels explicitly pandering to white fear to not have showcased more black heroes back in the day, [I][B]because white dudes don't feel threatened by imaginary aliens or robots or anthopomorphic animals the way they do around black men[[/B]/I].[/QUOTE]
Did you pick that up from Sunday's episode of Watchmen? :p
Yea, sorry I don't fall into that camp. I can see your points, but we just have to understand that's how things were back then. It was due to ignorance and blind hatred from said ignorance. We can't change the past, nor should we try. What we need to do is learn from the past and appreciate how far we've come and celebrate the diversity there is in comics now and hope it continues. I'm going to keep supporting one of my all time favorite comic characters in John Stewart. I'm going to keep hoping Cyborg breaks through the barrier he's been under. And I want Vixen as one of the leading ladies of the DC Universe. It's ultimately up to us fans to make these things happen.
[QUOTE=Wandering_Wand;4718089]Did you pick that up from Sunday's episode of Watchmen? :p
Yea, sorry I don't fall into that camp. I can see your points, but [B]we just have to understand that's how things were back then.[/B] It was due to ignorance and blind hatred from said ignorance. We can't change the past, nor should we try. What we need to do is learn from the past and appreciate how far we've come and celebrate the diversity there is in comics now and hope it continues. I'm going to keep supporting one of my all time favorite comic characters in John Stewart. I'm going to keep hoping Cyborg breaks through the barrier he's been under. And I want Vixen as one of the leading ladies of the DC Universe. It's ultimately up to us fans to make these things happen.[/QUOTE]
Criticizing a 'black' comic company for writing chars with a uniquely black background/experience while dismissing the complete whiteness of earlier books as " just the way things were" make you sound as if you've always had the privilege of constantly seeing [B]Your[/B] experience normalized in various media
There was a point in time when black america had the potential to be a very real threat. In that first wave of independence the narrative was ok now weve broken free from chains of colonial oppression we can become mighty nations. If that had actually come to fruition then youve got a lot of your population back in usa potentially thinking in militant terms and with a lot of potential backing from these african superstates. Obviously everything turned to **** almost immediately so that never happened. Then in second wave you had the russians move in to africa preaching their situation was a result of capitalism. If those african communist states had been successful then you got big problems back in usa but again it all turned to crap almost immediately.
But none of that was the fault of the artists writers and publishers of comics. Theyd had their freedom of speech effectively taken from them by the government.
[QUOTE=BroHomo;4718136]Criticizing a 'black' comic company for writing chars with a uniquely black background/experience while dismissing the complete whiteness of earlier books as " just the way things were" make you sound as if you've always had the privilege of constantly seeing [B]Your[/B] experience normalized in various media[/QUOTE]
Maybe I'm missing something here. I don't recall criticizing a black comic company at all. Can you please point me to where I did?
Also, my only intent to explain how things were is to say that I can't change it, nor can you - it's in the past; that's how things were. Let's learn from it and evolve as we have been.
[QUOTE=BroHomo;4718136]Criticizing a 'black' comic company for writing chars with a uniquely black background/experience while dismissing the complete whiteness of earlier books as " just the way things were" make you sound as if you've always had the privilege of constantly seeing [B]Your[/B] experience normalized in various media[/QUOTE]
I didn't see any criticism of him criticizing a black comic company. Where was that at?
[QUOTE=Sutekh;4717481]And yet, as a white dude, I don't find the kids who inherit sole control of billion-dollar companies (Wayne, Stark, Danny Rand, etc.) to be all that relatable, no matter how white or male they are. Ditto the aliens (Superman) or Norse gods (Thor) or WW2-era super-soldiers (Cap) or alien space cops who might be reincarnated Egyptian royalty (WTFman).
I always felt it was more of an excuse than anything. I could read and enjoy stories about Martian Manhunter, or Shadow Lass or Machine Man or Donald Duck or Casper the Friendly Ghost, and it never really mattered that they weren't white dudes. It feels explicitly pandering to white fear to not have showcased more black heroes back in the day, because white dudes don't feel threatened by imaginary aliens or robots or anthopomorphic animals the way they do around black men.[/QUOTE]
I think the point is-there is a COMFORT level.
I can tell the story of a white Superman and nobody throws a fit.
I can tell the story of a martian from Mars that liked Oreos and nobody threw a fit.
I can tell the story of Donald Duck and all sorts of animals and nobody threw a fit.
It was not about a young white male relating to Bruce or Clark or Thor or Tony or Reed or Conan.[U][I] It was about making sure that is what they saw was acceptable by those in charge.[/I][/U]
Look at Franklin-white folks did not mind him in Peanuts as long as he was NOT shown in the same school as the white kids. Or sitting by them in that infamous Peanut special.
[URL="https://shadowandact.com/theres-more-to-franklin-than-just-being-the-black-kid-in-a-charlie-brown-thanksgiving"]https://shadowandact.com/theres-more-to-franklin-than-just-being-the-black-kid-in-a-charlie-brown-thanksgiving[/URL]
[QUOTE]
As NPR details, Franklin's entrance into the Peanuts world was widely praised[U][B] except in the south, where his inclusion was protested[/B][/U]. As reported, "Schulz kept Franklin but never developed him into as nuanced a character as the other Peanuts."
[/QUOTE]
It boiled down to writers doing enough to pander to the audience of what they felt was COMFORTABLE or ACCEPTABLE.
Batman can have do anything except have a black male sidekick. 30 year readers of Batman dropped the book over Duke Thomas. Mind all of you-Duke did not appear in that book at all in 2018. All his appearances couldn't fill up ONE complete comic.
Most of the backlash we have seen towards certain blacks have been trying to make them more than background fodder.
Silencer with a book is NOT an issue. Trying that with Vixen seems to be. Same with Cyborg, John Stewart, Jason Rusch and others. The ones who have been here since 1970s.
We got this pandering going on while everyone else is not trying to do that. Lion Force & Vault are NOT playing. And what DC does not get-those books are the ones KIDS are going to read. Then they wonder why they go to cons and see a kid dressed up as Noble from Lion Forge and not Cyborg. Cyborg keeps getting denied what Noble has.
[QUOTE=Sodam Yat;4718351]I didn't see any criticism of him criticizing a black comic company. Where was that at?[/QUOTE]
I am not sure if he meant this but-
Milestone dealt with that when they worked with Dc. Lead by other black comic book companies and even Wizard the Guide the Comics. Who questioned the blackness of the company.
A lot of those black companies had books that never made it past issue one.
Wizard screamed Static did not act black enough. The same company that propped up Image books that unlike Milestone had trouble coming out on time. Not one Milestone book was ever late despite not having the talent of Image.
Funny folks remember Static. unlike everyone NOT named Spawn, Savage Dragon or Wildcats.
[QUOTE=Wandering_Wand;4718203]Maybe I'm missing something here. I don't recall criticizing a black comic company at all. Can you please point me to where I did?
Also, my only intent to explain how things were is to say that I can't change it, nor can you - it's in the past; that's how things were. Let's learn from it and evolve as we have been.[/QUOTE]
Ha sorry dude.... shopping/family hangover TOOOOTALLY misread your whole deal. I'll just bow out gracefully lol
[QUOTE=skyvolt2000;4718397]Batman can have do anything except have a black male sidekick. 30 year readers of Batman dropped the book over Duke Thomas. Mind all of you-Duke did not appear in that book at all in 2018. All his appearances couldn't fill up ONE complete comic.
Most of the backlash we have seen towards certain blacks have been trying to make them more than background fodder.
Silencer with a book is NOT an issue. Trying that with Vixen seems to be. Same with Cyborg, John Stewart, Jason Rusch and others. The ones who have been here since 1970s.[/QUOTE]A lot of this backlash is usually more due to them sidelining old popular characters (or even wore use them as jobbers) to prop up their new creations.
That mostly minority characters get this kind of Backlash is to a good part because they hardly create new "non minority" characters, a if they do it it is usually not to take over the place of another "non minority" character.
My view is that it's unlikely any time soon for any of them, or any other characters to really achieve that status. Of those listed, I'd say John Stewart, Black Lightning, or Vixen. Nobody outside of hardcore DC readers even know Naomi exists. Cyborg's real problem is that DC took him, rewrote his origin to power him up and make him convenient for a particular story, and have been pushing him very, very heavily for about a decade now, with no real results. Judging from both his solo title sales and restarts, and the collective public yawn given the character's appearance in Justice League, I'd say he struck out in the role of new Trinity type. He's a fine character in his original incarnation, but he's just not that type.
I think the conditions that led to the popularity of the Trinity members don't exist anymore.