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[QUOTE=Vakanai;4301308]Fashion and trends reporter would be consistent.[/QUOTE]
In terms of giving her a journalism job that actually deals with stuff she is a specialist in, yeah, but Mary Jane is more the type to walk, talk, and interact with people then she is to write and jot stuff down in my opinion.
[QUOTE=gregpersons;4300515]Okay but what would be the point of this? She is still adjacent to the main story and separate from the action. So why change her from model / actress? There's no reason to do this, other than change for change sake, which is not what is being advocated.[/QUOTE]
It would make more sense for a former model/actress to become a Youtube personality/influencer than it would an investigative reporter. If Mary Jane needs is to get a new job, then it should be something that makes sense for her character.
Betty Brant and Norah Winters already fill the investigative reporter niche.
[QUOTE=Lee;4301332]It would make more sense for a former model/actress to become a Youtube personality/influencer than it would an investigative reporter. If Mary Jane needs is to get a new job, then it should be something that makes sense for her character.
Betty Brant and Norah Winters already fill the investigative reporter niche.[/QUOTE]
You're entirely missing the point. Try to have a little imagination here, okay?
The idea being batted around isn't simply to "update" the job, it is to bring MJ closer into Peter's life rather than just bringing him chicken soup in bed when he's sick, or missing him when he's gone, which is her current 616 status quo. Her role in the PS4 game -- a story that has near universal acclaim -- makes MJ a far more compelling and necessary character. Adapting that creative decision into the 616 is the idea.
[QUOTE=Frontier]In terms of giving her a journalism job that actually deals with stuff she is a specialist in, yeah, but Mary Jane is more the type to walk, talk, and interact with people then she is to write and jot stuff down in my opinion.[/QUOTE]
Walking, talking, and interacting is precisely what a reporter would do -- and, for all we know, she's been writing off-panel this entire time.
[QUOTE=gregpersons;4301418]
The idea being batted around isn't simply to "update" the job, it is to bring MJ closer into Peter's life rather than just bringing him chicken soup in bed when he's sick, or missing him when he's gone, which is her current 616 status quo. Her role in the PS4 game -- a story that has near universal acclaim -- makes MJ a far more compelling and necessary character. Adapting that creative decision into the 616 is the idea.[/QUOTE]
I think that's more of a stereotype of 616 Mary Jane's status quo and relationship with Peter then the actual status quo of Mary Jane.
MJ, when written correctly, is a very independent and strong career woman.
[QUOTE][B]Walking, talking, and interacting is precisely what a reporter would do[/B] -- and, for all we know, she's been writing off-panel this entire time.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, but in a different way from how I'm imagining it where it's more in a celebrity/entertaniment bent then it would be for reporting a news story.
So I guess she might have a secret journalism degree :p?
[QUOTE=gregpersons;4301418]You're entirely missing the point. Try to have a little imagination here, okay?
The idea being batted around isn't simply to "update" the job, it is to bring MJ closer into Peter's life rather than just bringing him chicken soup in bed when he's sick, or missing him when he's gone, which is her current 616 status quo.[/QUOTE]
If she's currently being written as a doting housewife with no life of her own, then that's a separate problem. As Peter's friend or girlfriend, Mary Jane is already closely involved in Peter's life. It sounds like what you're talking about is her getting actively involved in super-hero/crime side of things on a regular basis. I don't think that's necessary or desirable for every supporting cast member. If a story calls for Peter to have a news journalist friend, then Betty Brant and Norah Winters are available. It makes more sense to do something different with Mary Jane, something that actually fits her history, abilities and personality, rather than shoehorning her into a role that's already covered. The more kinds of people Peter interacts with, the more kinds of stories can be told. Having a friend in the entertainment industry, that's something that can be used. Having three friends who are young, white, female investigative reporters is less useful.
[QUOTE=Frontier;4301321]In terms of giving her a journalism job that actually deals with stuff she is a specialist in, yeah, but Mary Jane is more the type to walk, talk, and interact with people then she is to write and jot stuff down in my opinion.[/QUOTE]
Part of journalism is doing interviews, so plenty of walking, talking, and interacting.
Especially in some of the more modern, media savvy, television and online presence having versions of the Bugle we see these days besides just the paper. She could work for the Bugle more in a filmed interview and review scenario than typing away on a keyboard.
[QUOTE=Vakanai;4301602]Part of journalism is doing interviews, so plenty of walking, talking, and interacting.
Especially in some of the more modern, media savvy, television and online presence having versions of the Bugle we see these days besides just the paper. She could work for the Bugle more in a filmed interview and review scenario than typing away on a keyboard.[/QUOTE]
I could see her as maybe an E! style reporter or interview person, which isn't the bare-knuckle reporting of, say, Lois Lane.
"you don't like my ideas 'cos you all have no imagination!" - best pitch ever
[QUOTE=Frontier;4301468]I think that's more of a stereotype of 616 Mary Jane's status quo and relationship with Peter then the actual status quo of Mary Jane.
MJ, when written correctly, is a very independent and strong career woman.[/QUOTE]
I'd like to see more of that strength and independence, because even in comics/runs that tend to be cited having a strong Mary Jane, it's fleeting. For instance, the JMS run tends to be credited as having a strong MJ, but as much as I love that run, it's just not true. She is crying in over half of her on-panel appearances.
[QUOTE=Lee]If she's currently being written as a doting housewife with no life of her own, then that's a separate problem. As Peter's friend or girlfriend, Mary Jane is already closely involved in Peter's life. It sounds like what you're talking about is her getting actively involved in super-hero/crime side of things on a regular basis. I don't think that's necessary or desirable for every supporting cast member. If a story calls for Peter to have a news journalist friend, then Betty Brant and Norah Winters are available. It makes more sense to do something different with Mary Jane, something that actually fits her history, abilities and personality, rather than shoehorning her into a role that's already covered. The more kinds of people Peter interacts with, the more kinds of stories can be told. Having a friend in the entertainment industry, that's something that can be used. Having three friends who are young, white, female investigative reporters is less useful.[/QUOTE]
Right. She is kind of being written as doting housewife. So she is "in his life" but as a 1-dimensional cliche... and Spider-Man is a story that historically subverts 1-dimensional cliches, so it's frustrating to see her reduced to this, particularly when we have examples -- very recent and successful examples -- of how MJ can be in his life in a complementary win-win way... and doesn't take away from Betty, Norah, or anyone else.
[QUOTE=Vakani]
Part of journalism is doing interviews, so plenty of walking, talking, and interacting.
Especially in some of the more modern, media savvy, television and online presence having versions of the Bugle we see these days besides just the paper. She could work for the Bugle more in a filmed interview and review scenario than typing away on a keyboard.[/QUOTE]
100%
[QUOTE=Frontier]I could see her as maybe an E! style reporter or interview person, which isn't the bare-knuckle reporting of, say, Lois Lane.[/QUOTE]
Exactly. And once she's in this kind of scenario, she might be able to suss out a lead on a story that she's not "supposed" to be pursuing, because her beat is the entertainment lane. Lois Lane is respected by her peers -- but a lane (;P) that MJ could inhabit is the "cub reporter" thing... I thought it was a fun wrinkle in the PS4 story that MJ wasn't supposed to be chasing the stories she was after, she was just determined to do it anyway.
The reason I keep pointing to PS4 is it's the first time I've seen her fully realized in a way that I think the character deserves... Insomniac beautifully realized May and Mary as "do-gooders" in the same spirit as Peter, just without the superheroes, and I think it's perfect.
[QUOTE=Frontier]So I guess she might have a secret journalism degree ?[/QUOTE]
I mean, I know you're being facetious, but do we even know if she has a degree, or what it's in? There's a lot of MJ's backstory that's just fog.
Ohh but check this out. Her biological father was a writer and an experienced newspaper journalist. [url]https://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/Philip_Watson_(Earth-616)[/url]
Here's an EVEN EASIER way to implement the PS4 characterization -- Mary Jane could have been writing this entire time as a way to deal with her anger toward her father... or, alternatively, perhaps she was hesitant to write because she associated it with him... but now that she's moved past that anger, she's able to access her inner talent.
She perhaps begins by writing a One Woman Show for herself, which leads to maybe Entertainment Journalism, which leads to full on Journalism.
[QUOTE=gregpersons;4302169]I'd like to see more of that strength and independence, because even in comics/runs that tend to be cited having a strong Mary Jane, it's fleeting. For instance, the JMS run tends to be credited as having a strong MJ, but as much as I love that run, it's just not true. She is crying in over half of her on-panel appearances.[/QUOTE]
I don't know. I feel like that run did a good job of depicting Mary Jane's strengths and importance to Peter while still writing her very in-character...the only time I can really remember her crying is one instance when she and Peter are reconciling and another when Peter was getting the living @#$% kicked out of him by Morlun.
(I don't count the OMD moments).
[QUOTE]Exactly. And once she's in this kind of scenario, she might be able to suss out a lead on a story that she's not "supposed" to be pursuing, because her beat is the entertainment lane. Lois Lane is respected by her peers -- but a lane (;P) that MJ could inhabit is the "cub reporter" thing... I thought it was a fun wrinkle in the PS4 story that MJ wasn't supposed to be chasing the stories she was after, she was just determined to do it anyway.[/QUOTE]
It just kind of sounds like trying to force 616 Mary Jane into a role that a fairly different interpretation of her filled in a certain context.
[QUOTE]The reason I keep pointing to PS4 is it's the first time I've seen her fully realized in a way that I think the character deserves... Insomniac beautifully realized May and Mary as "do-gooders" in the same spirit as Peter, just without the superheroes, and I think it's perfect.[/QUOTE]
I enjoyed the PS4 interpretation and establishing that MJ is an effective and active heroine, as well as how it depicted her and Peter's relationship, but I felt the reporter aspect downplayed other aspects of her character that I like while also pigenholing her personality into something that's really pretty common as far as Superhero love interests go. Some of Mary Jane's unique traits were taken away to make room for a girl who felt like a young Lois Lane with red hair.
So positive in some respects, but not in all.
[QUOTE=boots;4302091]"you don't like my ideas 'cos you all have no imagination!" - best pitch ever[/QUOTE]
This is one of the least imaginative takedowns imaginable, so I believe this is what the kids call a "self own"
[QUOTE=gregpersons;4302192]This is one of the least imaginative takedowns imaginable, so I believe this is what the kids call a "self own"[/QUOTE]
are...are you aware you're actually just doing it again? is this a self owning of my self owning? this is the most postmodern thing i've seen all this morning.
on the actual topic of making mj more part of peter's world for the sake of streamlining and bringing them closer together, the undesirable flipside of that is that you make peter's life [I]smaller[/I]. the scope of his social circle shrinks as it and all his support cast are pulled into orbit the exact same space (or overlapping spaces). it becomes more a "situation" and less a real, breathing world.
if the intention is to allow mj more agency as an independent character, i'd be more inclined to lean into the idea of her independence further, rather than pull her in more tightly.
[QUOTE=boots;4302215]are...are you aware you're actually just doing it again? is this a self owning of my self owning? this is the most postmodern thing i've seen all this morning.
on the actual topic of making mj more part of peter's world for the sake of streamlining and bringing them closer together, the undesirable flipside of that is that you make peter's life [I]smaller[/I]. the scope of his social circle shrinks as it and all his support cast are pulled into orbit the exact same space (or overlapping spaces). it becomes more a "situation" and less a real, breathing world.
if the intention is to allow mj more agency as an independent character, i'd be more inclined to lean into the idea of her independence further, rather than pull her in more tightly.[/QUOTE]
Did you play the Spider-Man PS4 game? What I am advocating for is to bring the 616 more in line with how May & MJ interact with Peter in the Game-Verse, because that story wove both characters in beautifully, and showed how much stronger this makes all 3 characters when they each have agency, they each have their own inner lives, and you can see why that are bonded, because despite their differences, they have deeply shared values of helping people that are expressed in distinct ways. May works at a charity; MJ wants to help as part of the 4th estate; Peter's responsibility is as a superhero. It clicks, it's refreshing, it's true to the characters and the overall spirit of the mythos.
"The Game-Verse doesn't need to be the 616, and we have a Game-Verse comic." Yes, but it is NOT a stretch to incorporate these aspects into 616... it'd be a lot easier and more beneficial than trying to adapt in organic webshooters. We're already seeing it for Aunt May a little bit as she's perhaps looking to revive FEAST -- a good choice -- I'd like to see it with MJ.
There are a number of ways in which Nick Spencer (or whoever) could bring it about. Two such options were thrown out, but I'd bet even more could be thought of when the vibe of the room isn't "Uh, no, change is impossible, Mary Jane would never write, everything has to remain static forever" which, thanks again for your contribution.
I am advocating for it because I'd like to enjoy the ongoing Spider-Man comic stories as much as I enjoyed the game's story -- which received virtually universal acclaim -- and though the current ASM is pretty good, there are still some gaps in the new status quo, like what to do with MJ and Aunt May, what job Peter should have, etc.
[QUOTE=Frontier;4302177]I don't know. I feel like that run did a good job of depicting Mary Jane's strengths and importance to Peter while still writing her very in-character...the only time I can really remember her crying is one instance when she and Peter are reconciling and another when Peter was getting the living @#$% kicked out of him by Morlun.
(I don't count the OMD moments).[/QUOTE]
I just finished re-reading it. She cries A LOT outside of OMD and Morlun. She gets more insight in the JMS run than she usually gets, but it's still not that high of a bar to clear.
(She does have some good moments in that run, I'm not saying she doesn't -- JMS was obviously interested in developing MJ, May, and Peter's non-Spidey life, and I feel like that's why the run is so great.)
[QUOTE]I enjoyed the PS4 interpretation and establishing that MJ is an effective and active heroine, as well as how it depicted her and Peter's relationship, but I felt the reporter aspect downplayed other aspects of her character that I like while also pigenholing her personality into something that's really pretty common as far as Superhero love interests go. Some of Mary Jane's unique traits were taken away to make room for a girl who felt like a young Lois Lane with red hair.
So positive in some respects, but not in all.[/QUOTE]
I (somewhat) agree, I also like the traditional aspects of Mary Jane's non-girlfriend life — an actress, model, partier, entrepreneur — all of that. I like how it contrasts with Peter. And you're right that we don't really see that side of her in the PS4 game.
Now, a blend of the two... hmm, well, that could be something! ;)
I am all for MJ getting a cool/hero based role in spidey stories that help Peter as a hero and as a man.