The Dark Triad (Black Clover) vs. Special Grade Curses (Jujutsu Kaisen)

Just wanted to test out a few characters from some, relatively, new manga. I've only seen the Jujutsu Kaisen anime so I don't know if this is a mismatch or not. Feel free to include spoilers regarding the characters' abilities and whatnot. I don't mind.

But anyway, we've got three devil possessed mages taking on three special grade curses here. The Dark Triad will not have access to any gate to the demon realm, so they can only access 70-80% of their respective devil's magic. Let's see how this goes.

[B]Dante vs. Jogo[/B]
Gravity and body magic against the curse born from humanity's fear of the earth.

[B]Vanica vs. Hanami[/B]
Curse-warding and blood magic against the curse born from humanity's fear of forests.

[B]Zenon vs. Dagon[/B]
Space and bone magic against the curse born from humanity's fear of the ocean.

[B]Group fight[/B]
Both full trios go at it.

Which group wins the most matches?

The Dark Triad tend to play in a higher ballpark than the Special Grades as far as I recall of them, though my level of recollection on Black Clover is admittedly pretty superficial.

Jogo has a ton of firepower to draw upon and he's strong but he's a pretty dumb brick guy when it comes down to it. His Domain Expansion is just "You're in a volcano now," which is pretty basic. I think Dante has the regen and solid defences and greater diversity of options to take it fairly clean.

Hanami has decent versatility and strength and, broadly speaking, is pretty resistant to curses as are most high grade people in JJK so I imagine Vanica might have a hard time getting her stuff to really stick. That said, I'll confess I really don't remember anything about Vanica though beyond vague aesthetics.

Dagon has an extremely powerful Domain Expansion which is quite difficult to deal with. However, Zenon's spatial magic might be a get-out-of-jail-free card to the whole concept of Domain Expansion so he could, possibly, bait Dagon into wasting a ton of energy.

EDIT: No Mahito?

[QUOTE=Nik Hasta;5412552]The Dark Triad tend to play in a higher ballpark than the Special Grades as far as I recall of them, though my level of recollection on Black Clover is admittedly pretty superficial.

Jogo has a ton of firepower to draw upon and he's strong but he's a pretty dumb brick guy when it comes down to it. His Domain Expansion is just "You're in a volcano now," which is pretty basic. I think Dante has the regen and solid defences and greater diversity of options to take it fairly clean.

Hanami has decent versatility and strength and, broadly speaking, is pretty resistant to curses as are most high grade people in JJK so I imagine Vanica might have a hard time getting her stuff to really stick. That said, I'll confess I really don't remember anything about Vanica though beyond vague aesthetics.

Dagon has an extremely powerful Domain Expansion which is quite difficult to deal with. However, Zenon's spatial magic might be a get-out-of-jail-free card to the whole concept of Domain Expansion so he could, possibly, bait Dagon into wasting a ton of energy.[/QUOTE]
Dante's regen is pretty nuts. First example we saw of it was when Yami erased his torso and after getting over the initial surprise Dante just regrew his torso and turned into a large monster man. He's also got that attack that carved out a sizeable protion of a mountain. Unless Jogo can match that and deal with increased gravity pushing him he might be outmatched here.

Vanica probably has the least raw power oomph out of the Dark Triad, at least in terms of feats. She is able to summon up a beast made out blood that easily destroyed Noelle's water dragon attack and she has some general degree of super strength. Her curse-warding magic has so far been used as a long-winded death curse, giving her disciples the ability to come back from death or explode when she's tired of them, and instantly weaken the effect of other magic on her, she also completely immobilised a powerful elemental spirit into basically a puddle by just injecting a curse into. Stabbing her doesn't really do much either. So she and Hanami might be going at it for a while.

Zenon's bone magic has some solid defensive capabilities, covering a large area and regenerating, so he might be able to withstand Dagon's domain expansion for a bit, depending on how it works, before lol-noping out of there. How dangerous is Dagon without it?
[QUOTE=Nik Hasta;5412552]EDIT: No Mahito?[/QUOTE]
As the name implies there's only three of the Dark Triad and I didn't think that Mahito was a proper fit to fight any of them.

[QUOTE=Dark Soul # 7;5412591]Dante's regen is pretty nuts. First example we saw of it was when Yami erased his torso and after getting over the initial surprise Dante just regrew his torso and turned into a large monster man. He's also got that attack that carved out a sizeable protion of a mountain. Unless Jogo can match that and deal with increased gravity pushing him he might be outmatched here.[/quote]

Yeah, Jogo's top stuff is on the level of messing up an entire city block. He's got pretty okay regen, he came back from Sukuna tearing off his lower jaw and piledriving him through an entire skyscraper roof to foundations and was healed in literally an instant.

Like, end of, his main offensive game is "gigantic burning meteor to your face," Dante is going to notice that and it's going to hurt a lot. But he's got a lot of raw power to offset it. I could see Jogo taking 1 or 2 matches here but Dante seems to have the advantage.

[quote]Vanica probably has the least raw power oomph out of the Dark Triad, at least in terms of feats. She is able to summon up a beast made out blood that easily destroyed Noelle's water dragon attack and she has some general degree of super strength. Her curse-warding magic has so far been used as a long-winded death curse, giving her disciples the ability to come back from death or explode when she's tired of them, and instantly weaken the effect of other magic on her, she also completely immobilised a powerful elemental spirit into basically a puddle by just injecting a curse into. Stabbing her doesn't really do much either. So she and Hanami might be going at it for a while.[/quote]

I think Hanami has the best chance of getting a majority win here. She's mad strong and has all kinds of nasty plant tricks that could be implanted into Varnica to wear her down faster. If the curse plants get into her or whatever then that will help with the attrition.

It's shame we never saw her Domain as I recall.

[quote]Zenon's bone magic has some solid defensive capabilities, covering a large area and regenerating, so he might be able to withstand Dagon's domain expansion for a bit, depending on how it works, before lol-noping out of there. How dangerous is Dagon without it?[/quote]

Dagon is, by broad presentation, pretty much the weakest of the Special Grades. His Domain Expansion is mad powerful but he also got completely owned by Toji with Playful Cloud just fighting his way through the Domain and stabbing him to death.

Outside of Domain; he's strong but not overwhelming so. He has a water shield that blocks attacks and allows him to counter at the same time but it got overwhelmed by Nanami, Maki and another Grade 1 Sorcerer going at him. He was unable to kill Maki, the weakest there, in one shot and Nanami and Moustache Guy both survived his Domain for an extended period even though they were largely maimed by it.

Zenon has much more powerful defensive abilities, than Nanami or Moustache Guy, and regeneration, which they didn't have, so he might not even care about the Domain too much. I'm not really seeing a path for Dagon to win this.

[quote]As the name implies there's only three of the Dark Triad and I didn't think that Mahito was a proper fit to fight any of them.[/QUOTE]

I feel like Dagon could use the support haha T_T

The only remaining thing we've not covered is speed. JJK isn't a very speed heavy series but neither is BC, might be some blitz chances in there maaaaybe? But... yeah... I feel like the Triad sweep this with the exception of Hanami who can probably take it after a prolonged fight.

[QUOTE=Nik Hasta;5412624]Yeah, Jogo's top stuff is on the level of messing up an entire city block. He's got pretty okay regen, he came back from Sukuna tearing off his lower jaw and piledriving him through an entire skyscraper roof to foundations and was healed in literally an instant.

Like, end of, his main offensive game is "gigantic burning meteor to your face," Dante is going to notice that and it's going to hurt a lot. But he's got a lot of raw power to offset it. I could see Jogo taking 1 or 2 matches here but Dante seems to have the advantage.[/QUOTE]
So they can probably pummel the snot out of each other for a while with their super strength and healing. But I'm thinking that Dante's gravity manipulation shenanigans gives him more of an edge. He can disrupt any movement on Jogo's part, and if nothing else his mountain gouging black hole probably counters Jogo's giant burning rock to the face.
[QUOTE=Nik Hasta;5412624]I think Hanami has the best chance of getting a majority win here. She's mad strong and has all kinds of nasty plant tricks that could be implanted into Varnica to wear her down faster. If the curse plants get into her or whatever then that will help with the attrition.

It's shame we never saw her Domain as I recall.[/QUOTE]
While we've not seen her do this exact thing, I don't think it's too much of a stretch for Vanica to like push out any curse plants that get stuck in her with her own blood, maybe by forming them it into spikes. But yeah, this is a war of attrition with lots of debuffs being tossed around and Hanami in general having somewhat better feats.
[QUOTE=Nik Hasta;5412624]Dagon is, by broad presentation, pretty much the weakest of the Special Grades. His Domain Expansion is mad powerful but he also got completely owned by Toji with Playful Cloud just fighting his way through the Domain and stabbing him to death.

Outside of Domain; he's strong but not overwhelming so. He has a water shield that blocks attacks and allows him to counter at the same time but it got overwhelmed by Nanami, Maki and another Grade 1 Sorcerer going at him. He was unable to kill Maki, the weakest there, in one shot and Nanami and Moustache Guy both survived his Domain for an extended period even though they were largely maimed by it.

Zenon has much more powerful defensive abilities, than Nanami or Moustache Guy, and regeneration, which they didn't have, so he might not even care about the Domain too much. I'm not really seeing a path for Dagon to win this.

I feel like Dagon could use the support haha T_T[/QUOTE]
Alrighty then. Would adding Mahito change that much, he seems to be a bit of an ill fit against Zenon's forest of giant stabby bones.
[QUOTE=Nik Hasta;5412624]The only remaining thing we've not covered is speed. JJK isn't a very speed heavy series but neither is BC, might be some blitz chances in there maaaaybe? But... yeah... I feel like the Triad sweep this with the exception of Hanami who can probably take it after a prolonged fight.[/QUOTE]
I do think that BC does a bit more of the shonen speed thing, but otherwise I don't think there's enough quantifiable material to say one is noticeably faster than the other.

[QUOTE=Dark Soul # 7;5412715]Alrighty then. Would adding Mahito change that much, he seems to be a bit of an ill fit against Zenon's forest of giant stabby bones.[/quote]

Mahito has some advantages and disadvantages to bring to the table.

Unfortunately, sharing your body/soul with a suitably powerful demon is in an in-canon counter to Mahito's Idle Transfiguration which lets him trivialise most of his opponents. It's dependent on the demon in Zenon being comparable to Sukuna which is a big if given how ridiculous Sukuna actually is but it's not like Mahito can just slap him and end the fight.

However, he's way more flexible and adaptable than Dagon and could actually stretch and contort his body to navigate the forest of bones. He also, by the end of his time in the series, is meant to be more powerful than Jogo physically so he's going to hit like a bit of a train. Plus he's also much harder to hurt permanently since flesh and manipulating his flesh means he can heal or adapt to most injuries.

Also given that Zenon is making bones, there's a real change Mahito could manipulate them right back at him. His whole medium is flesh and bones after all.

Depending on how powerful the demon inside Zenon is, Mahito's Domain Expansion could either be very good (he can effectively attack the demon aspect at will) or quite bad (demon aspect can attack him at will).

I think the combo of Mahito in Dagon's Domain could present some interesting problems and make it a much fairer match.

[quote]I do think that BC does a bit more of the shonen speed thing, but otherwise I don't think there's enough quantifiable material to say one is noticeably faster than the other.[/QUOTE]

I'll agree to that. Neither series really does that much with it.

[QUOTE=Nik Hasta;5412552]Dagon has an extremely powerful Domain Expansion which is quite difficult to deal with. However, Zenon's spatial magic might be a get-out-of-jail-free card to the whole concept of Domain Expansion so he could, possibly, bait Dagon into wasting a ton of energy.
[/QUOTE]

I'd actually say the opposite. Gojo's power is fairly bullshit Spatial manipulation, and Domain Expansion was presented as a viable counter to it.

[QUOTE=Nik Hasta;5412624]
I feel like Dagon could use the support haha T_T

The only remaining thing we've not covered is speed. JJK isn't a very speed heavy series but neither is BC, might be some blitz chances in there maaaaybe? But... yeah... I feel like the Triad sweep this with the exception of Hanami who can probably take it after a prolonged fight.[/QUOTE]

As far as Jujutsu Kaisen goes Speedwise, Maki is a fairly clear Bullet Timer, she cut a bullet out of the and caught one too.

Hanami had a brief fight with Maki, so that's useful for scale

Additional note on Speed: In Jujutsu Kaisen, there's something called Black Flash, a Phenomena that happens when Cursed Energy is applied within 0.000001 seconds of a physical hit. It's stated that no Jujutsu Sorceror can do it at will, not even Gojo Satoru.

[QUOTE=Jcogginsa;5413560]I'd actually say the opposite. Gojo's power is fairly bullshit Spatial manipulation, and Domain Expansion was presented as a viable counter to it.[/quote]

I don't really see the logic in this. Gojo's cursed technique is based on space manipulation but, like all JJK skills, it's pretty hyperspecific in application. Zenon can just open gates and teleport places so he could just leave a Domain Expansion since I don't think we've had confirmation that they block teleporting.

[quote]As far as Jujutsu Kaisen goes Speedwise, Maki is a fairly clear Bullet Timer, she cut a bullet out of the and caught one too.

Hanami had a brief fight with Maki, so that's useful for scale[/QUOTE]

Not as much as you'd think actually. Maki didn't blitz or be blitzed by Hanami in their encounter. Hanami mostly relied on her durability and just kind of stood there and ate what Maki and Megumi had to offer. There was one moment where Hanami fired a root spike a Maki's heart and she's able to just twist away so it hits her shoulder and Hanami is like "you have good reactions,"

So we can deduce that Hanami thinks bullet catching speed is pretty fast but not much about how that relates to her own abilities.

The next time we see her, as recall, she gets utterly flattened by Gojo but then Gojo flattens basically everyone.

[QUOTE=Jcogginsa;5413577]Additional note on Speed: In Jujutsu Kaisen, there's something called Black Flash, a Phenomena that happens when Cursed Energy is applied within 0.000001 seconds of a physical hit. It's stated that no Jujutsu Sorceror can do it at will, not even Gojo Satoru.[/QUOTE]

No one in this fight can do Black Flash so this is kind of a pointless addition.

Also, I think the ludicrous number attached to Black Flash renders it a bit SMvsFL based on everything else in the series.

[QUOTE=Nik Hasta;5413665]I don't really see the logic in this. Gojo's cursed technique is based on space manipulation but, like all JJK skills, it's pretty hyperspecific in application. Zenon can just open gates and teleport places so he could just leave a Domain Expansion since I don't think we've had confirmation that they block teleporting.
[/QUOTE]

Ah, my bad. I thought you were saying that Zenon could use Space manipulation to defend themselves, I forgot about escape as a possibility.

[QUOTE]
Not as much as you'd think actually. Maki didn't blitz or be blitzed by Hanami in their encounter. Hanami mostly relied on her durability and just kind of stood there and ate what Maki and Megumi had to offer. There was one moment where Hanami fired a root spike a Maki's heart and she's able to just twist away so it hits her shoulder and Hanami is like "you have good reactions,"

So we can deduce that Hanami thinks bullet catching speed is pretty fast but not much about how that relates to her own abilities.

The next time we see her, as recall, she gets utterly flattened by Gojo but then Gojo flattens basically everyone.
[/QUOTE]

Fair.

But on the topic of Maki, I did some more digging and she fights both Dagon and Jogo later on in the manga, alongside Nanami and Naobito, who is referred to as "The fastest Sorceror (That isn't Gojo Satoru)".

[QUOTE]
No one in this fight can do Black Flash so this is kind of a pointless addition.

Also, I think the ludicrous number attached to Black Flash renders it a bit SMvsFL based on everything else in the series.[/QUOTE]
1. I mostly bring it up as a way of establishing an upper limit on the setting's speed.

2. The fact that Black Flash's happening is largely a matter of luck causes me to think it's not really SMvsFL. The characters are just rolling natural 20s

[QUOTE=Jcogginsa;5413792]But on the topic of Maki, I did some more digging and she fights both Dagon and Jogo later on in the manga, alongside Nanami and Naobito, who is referred to as "The fastest Sorceror (That isn't Gojo Satoru)".[/quote]

My interpretation of that statement was that Naobito's speed is more derived from the nature of his powers rather than specific speed feats that we seem perform. When your primary form of offense is thought-activated ranged-stasis capture of your enemies apparently based on line of sight that leaves them completely vulnerable to you, your meaningful attacking speed is pretty damn quick.

It's less a statement on his reflexes though.

He's faster than Maki but we only really see her react to the aforementioned instant thought activate stasis capture power.

[quote]1. I mostly bring it up as a way of establishing an upper limit on the setting's speed.

2. The fact that Black Flash's happening is largely a matter of luck causes me to think it's not really SMvsFL. The characters are just rolling natural 20s[/QUOTE]

An upper limit that no one, not even Gojo the most comically overpowered person in the series, can achieve at will is not really an upper limit. It's literally meaningless in terms of how we gauge the speed of the characters because none of them can do it.

Like, Gojo opening and closing his Domain Expansion in 0.2 seconds to stunlock a crowd of people and curses without harming the humans is pretty ridiculous in terms of reaction feats but it is miles away from the proposed 0.000001 second timing on Black Flash.