X-Men has always had a message against bigotry and in modern times I think we have seen a re-emergence of white supremacy and people becoming more aware of structural racism. How should the X-Men reflect this modern resurgence of bigotry?
Printable View
X-Men has always had a message against bigotry and in modern times I think we have seen a re-emergence of white supremacy and people becoming more aware of structural racism. How should the X-Men reflect this modern resurgence of bigotry?
Well, if it were me, I'd make the emphasis on tearing down the BS used to justify such terrible things. Less lip service terms, more psychology. But that's just me, and doesn't really seem like what people want.
Less 1:1 stand-ins (Xavier/Magneto for MLK/X, Legacy Virus for AIDS etc.) more structures/patterns. Also I think what makes the X-Men have such resonance for so many marginalized communities isn’t so much the specific depiction of the adversity they face, but how no matter what they might not have in common with each other, they still understand something of each other’s lives that normies could never understand, so just write them with that in mind! And let them actually be hella queer and racially diverse etc, or else it’s the District 9 / Planet of the Apes thing where the fantasy becomes a way to tell real oppressed peoples’ stories without actually depicting anyone from those communities...
[QUOTE=The Overlord;4510594]X-Men has always had a message against bigotry and in modern times I think we have seen a re-emergence of white supremacy and people becoming more aware of structural racism. How should the X-Men reflect this modern resurgence of bigotry?[/QUOTE]
with nuance
[QUOTE=staptik777;4510613]yep, more sjw pls ...
[ATTACH=CONFIG]85695[/ATTACH][/QUOTE]
lol uh Zwhat Dude?
[QUOTE=TOTALITY;4510640]And let them actually be hella queer and racially diverse etc, [/QUOTE]YAAAAAS!!
Not sure the best way to do it, but I think it's something we really need now, both as a way to help us make sense of it all, but also to help the next generation avoid some of our mistakes; it's no secret that fiction can influence people and that power should be leveraged responsibly.
I'll just repeat what I said elsewhere:
I've come to the conclusion that the mutants are as feared as much as they are in the Marvel Universe because the writers are writing them like they're still in the 1960s, if not, in a more backwards time, all while the Fantastic Four and other mutate superheroes are relatively treated less harshly despite also having supernatural powers like the mutants do.
I think the human/mutant relations is portrayed as a little too backwards/non-progressive, perhaps more than it should. I realize the X-Men were created to serve as a parallel to the Civil Rights Movement and persecuted minorities in 1963, but on the other hand, we're not in 1963 anymore and, at the very least, I think it's reasonable enough to say that the world in 2019 isn't quite the same as it was in 1963.
Yes, there's still hatred in 2019. Yes, there's still racism in 2019. Yes, there's still scapegoating of groups of various backgrounds to the point of suffering in 2019. I'm not denying any of that. At the same time though, considering how there are quite a few successful celebrities of minority backgrounds, such as black actors, black athletes, black comedians, black musicians that are popular and respected by the public by and large, which are situations that can also help spread a message of equality to them, as well as there being numerous black politicians, and America in 2019 just being in a distinctly different place than how it was in 1963, all aspects considered overall and kept in mind, then I'd like to see a shake-up in the human/mutant dynamic in the series.
I'm definitely not saying to get rid of the minority persecution aspect of the series, as black celebrities don't always have it peachy keen either. I guess I just think that having a more "human-embracing" aspect towards mutants in addition would make for a more interesting shake-up in the current status quo, which at many times can seem to pigeonhole mutants as seemingly being only destined to suffer. As well as it how it help the series be more interestingly progressive rather than uninterestingly (and perhaps over-depressingly) regressive. The human vs. mutants relation just ends up seeming more like a demon hunters vs. demons relation, resulting in more of a commentary of religion rather than other aspects such as race, despite many writers' intentions.
[QUOTE=staptik777;4510613]yep, more sjw pls ...
[/QUOTE]
-It is hilarious to this day that people think Social Justice warrior is an insult or bad thing
- It is also pretty funny that people can read X-men and not literally realize they are social justice warriors I mean that is their primary objective the equal treatment of mutants. Maybe they need scream Mutant lives matter for some people to get it.
-Thankful your post happens proves again that X-men should be using on things. I will use the Rahne death as an example a bunch of people were upset about that and in the big picture that seems silly to me. How the X-men is best used is when people don't out right realize what the thing X-men is referring to a lot people don't seem to care about Transpeople dying but a character who is a metaphor for a transperson dying might get to care about that character. Then next step is them finding out what metaphor is and hopefully relating it to real world and going oh maybe I should care about a transperson dying. I mean can't get some people to understand to Black Panther party but I can point out they are parallels between the Black Panther Party and Revolutionary Cyclops era X-men. X-men is best when people go "Oh Mutants are stand for Muslims in this" "Oh Cyclops is getting treated like a black person" "Oh mutants are stand in for ........"
As long as the X-men isn't preachy with it is fine. be overt, subtle and pretty nuance with it. I mean don't go Mutants from Mexico are flooding in should be something more like group of nuhumans are trying just to live work and US government are trying to send them to Attilan. I would love more diversity in the X-men but I do realize that people seem themselves in the X-men make them more accepting of things.
Electricmastro, that’s a good point! Where are the humans who are into, like, co-opting mutant culture, the humans with one mutant friend, the sitcoms with really pretty mutants who never make their mutantness too pronounced, the mutant President who proves human/mutant relations are totally solved forever?
That said, the moves Hickman is making, I can totally see a disruption of the status quo that big believably foregrounding the classic kind of animosity that we like to pretend is history. Like how islamophobia got super popular after 9/11. Or the straight white guys who who think a tiny bit of representation means they’re being replaced — imagine how humanity at large reacts when they find out they’re actually, literally being replaced. Welcoming the new mutant overlords starts to seem like a more radical human position. But yeah, there should definitely be humans who are like, into it in a kind of grotesque fashionable way. Hope someone nails that eventually.
I think we need to remember there was never a direct parallel with current affairs. The mutant metaphor has always been loosely applied and general. Yes it is entirely possible for a writer to tackle an individual prejudice in a story though analogy, but there is a potential to overburden the format if they try and reflect everything all at once.
Also, the audience has become more global, so Marvel have to make some choices, or at least individual writers do. Do they heavily focus in on US concerns or do they keep things broad and relevant to an international audience.
So maybe a more interesting way of asking the question is which current issues are most suitable for an X-Men analogy.
I imagine Hickman will focus on big picture issues like how easily we are manipulated by social media and the new propaganda. These are better done with indirect analogy otherwise readers will just switch off. Not many of us want to read about how Cambridge Analytica screwed over mutants. It is also quite hard to do this kind of thing. Tom Taylor was clearly interested in such issues in Red but the analogy was perhaps unfocused and not very pointed.
Issues like reproductive rights are so hot topic they can divide audiences, but they are clearly important in the US at the moment. To a European reader they can seem strange and mostly irrelevant, despite them actually being real issues under the surface of our society’s globally.
Issues in the LGBTQIAPK spectrum are all relevant to the mutant analogy, but some of them need an entire context that Marvel don’t seem eager to provide. Even tackling the issues at the left of the acronym seem difficult. Just ask Sina Grace how easy it is to write a book with a guy dating another guy. The amount of negative press that received from long time X-Men fans on otherwise mainstream podcasts and review pages was frankly embarrassing. The unconscious and non-reflective bias was palpable. How easy would it really be to seriously address trans issues or asexual issues if we still think Northstar is as far as comics can go?
[QUOTE=Killerbee911;4510679]
-Thankful your post happens proves again that X-men should be using on things. I will use the Rahne death as an example a bunch of people were upset about that and in the big picture that seems silly to me. How the X-men is best used is when people don't out right realize what the thing X-men is referring to a lot people don't seem to care about Transpeople dying but a character who is a metaphor for a transperson dying might get to care about that character. Then next step is them finding out what metaphor is and hopefully relating it to real world and going oh maybe I should care about a transperson dying.[/quote]
Yes. This is partly the issue I am referring to. The analogy can be used but does it register? Or maybe the question is does it need to register with everyone. Although Rahne’s death was in the middle of a very depressing volume that tried to do far too much, so perhaps it is unsurprising that it didn’t land with a wider readership. It was also very bleak.
[quote]I mean can't get some people to understand to Black Panther party but I can point out they are parallels between the Black Panther Party and Revolutionary Cyclops era X-men.[/quote] How relevant to the modern world is that analogy? These political movements moved on and adapted to different contexts. Divided and combined, focused on new issues. Does radical Cyclops really feel like the right character to reflect the more modern concerns of say the bias of historical narratives or social economic challenges. He’s a very privileged guy.
This was one of the advantages of having O5 back, but we never saw fruition of that idea. The less privileged, less confident characters thrust into a world that’s supposedly less prejudiced realising that they just face different prejudices. As usual fans were more focused on nonsense like bottled water, thereby missing the point that the analogy being created had to stretch artificial notions like the bloody sliding timeline.
[quote]X-men is best when people go "Oh Mutants are stand for Muslims in this" "Oh Cyclops is getting treated like a black person" "Oh mutants are stand in for ........"[/quote] I guess that’s the question. Does it still work? How black is Cyclops? Is it obvious to someone who hasn’t been here for decades. If you need to be told does it still work?
[QUOTE=TOTALITY;4510681]Electricmastro, that’s a good point! Where are the humans who are into, like, co-opting mutant culture, the humans with one mutant friend, the sitcoms with really pretty mutants who never make their mutantness too pronounced, the mutant President who proves human/mutant relations are totally solved forever?
That said, the moves Hickman is making, I can totally see a disruption of the status quo that big believably foregrounding the classic kind of animosity that we like to pretend is history. Like how islamophobia got super popular after 9/11. Or the straight white guys who who think a tiny bit of representation means they’re being replaced — imagine how humanity at large reacts when they find out they’re actually, literally being replaced. Welcoming the new mutant overlords starts to seem like a more radical human position. But yeah, there should definitely be humans who are like, into it in a kind of grotesque fashionable way. Hope someone nails that eventually.[/QUOTE]
Not sure if you're being sarcastically jokey, but I think it's worth mentioning that despite how the Hulk has caused has caused massive destruction over and over again, and how that kind of stuff has him chased by the army and reported on the news, it's shown he has a number of supporters and has even been pardoned, as Thunderbolt Ross mentioned, which seems to be a heck of a lot more appreciation given to him than the X-Men ever got, at least in more recent times, despite not purposely causing destruction like the Hulk did.
[img]https://2.bp.blogspot.com/SVCqPxh8Q-dnMUImzyU5wZpoe4BrMtjFR9QbTQ5iFtiqqOgCBL5XkIjXQ8PhuKIacH5rBjObmSS2=s0[/img]
[QUOTE=JKtheMac;4510691]
Issues in the LGBTQIAPK spectrum are all relevant to the mutant analogy, but some of them need an entire context that Marvel don’t seem eager to provide. Even tackling the issues at the left of the acronym seem difficult. Just ask Sina Grace how easy it is to write a book with a guy dating another guy. The amount of negative press that received from long time X-Men fans on otherwise mainstream podcasts and review pages was frankly embarrassing. The unconscious and non-reflective bias was palpable. How easy would it really be to seriously address trans issues or asexual issues if we still think Northstar is as far as comics can go?[/QUOTE]
I hope Hickman has an eye on those things because I feel like he could get just about anything in right now if he wanted to. Like he said a SDCC, very few people tell him ‘no’ anymore. While nothing boundary-pushing, Mystique and Destiny’s relationship felt present and so matter-of-fact in HOX2. I guess Claremont’s intentions for them are such established history at this point that it may as well have always been overt on the page (not that it was ever super subtle.) Lots of similarly untapped potential in plenty of other characters that I know some writers and editors would pass by executive order on their first day in office, yet somehow straight people keep holding the keys to the X-Men, forever the most subtext-laden Marvel franchise but never the representation standard bearer it could be. I would settle for a straight person in charge who at least tries to make some strides in that area (especially if they have the clout to make things happen), maybe if they had some queer x-fans in their brain trust...
[QUOTE=JKtheMac;4510691] How easy would it really be to seriously address trans issues or asexual issues if we still think Northstar is as far as comics can go?[/QUOTE]
Is that feature or is that the comic? The X-men is a superhero comic how much responsibility should it have in areas like this? Is the X-men superhero story that can touch on social issues or Is it a book about social issues that happens to have superhumans in it? The X-men does lionshare of work no other comic imo comes close to if the X-men wanted they could put Iceman, Northstar, Shatterstar, Rictor, Prodigy, Pyro and Anole as team for a book/story note I am not excusing them from doing better but I am saying X-men can field a team of LGBTQ superheroes where something like Justice League or Avengers you will struggle to point out one.
X-men has a natural set up to parallel stories of minorities but X-men also still has to be entertaining superhero comic with action and adventure to sell. Other comics can cover these issue as well it is not alone in the comic world and forcing it to be everything in this area is unfair. That said X-men can and should do better but when I see many other big comics so woefully under equipped to tell these type certain of stories I see that problem is with industry not necessary the X-men. X-men can have convo with Darwin,Celia Reyes and Sunspot on what it it is to be Afro Latino, The X-men can have Moonstar, Forge, and Warpath talk about issue of Indigenous Americans. I guess my big point X-men is actually has good balance of social issues/super heroism but since other comics are so bad at it .We demand more from the X-men sometimes at detriment of X-men being a dope superhero book.
[QUOTE=JKtheMac;4510703]Yes. This is partly the issue I am referring to. The analogy can be used but does it register? Or maybe the question is does it need to register with everyone. Although Rahne’s death was in the middle of a very depressing volume that tried to do far too much, so perhaps it is unsurprising that it didn’t land with a wider readership. It was also very bleak.
?[/QUOTE]
If it does for some that is good enough. I spoke on it above it. X-men does not have to be everything that doesn't excuse it from being better in that area tho
[QUOTE=Killerbee911;4510679]It is hilarious to this day that people think Social Justice warrior is an insult or bad thing[/QUOTE]
Social Justice Warrior =\= person who fights for social justice. It carries implications that they are pursuing personal validation rather than any deep-seated conviction, and engaging in disingenuous arguments.
One thing I want is no more sentinels.
Where's the humans complaining about their homes being destroyed by the giant robot trying to capture a dude who's 'threatening' mutant ability is to turn cheese into chicken ? Wheres the anti-government types yelling about how THEIR taxes are being wasted on stupid giant robots when a dude in cheaper power armour could do the same job ? Etc
[QUOTE=Killerbee911;4510716]Iceman, Northstar, Shatterstar, Rictor, Prodigy, Pyro and Anole[/QUOTE]
Yeah, I don’t want to erase these guys when I say X-Men isn’t the standard bearer it could be. There are certainly gay characters, and generally more than in other super teams. Would love if the stories themselves started to get queerer in form, though I’m not sure exactly what that would look like. Though it’s played a little like playful provocation, I have to say HOX1’s “Actually, Sophie’s my human name. I’m thinking of taking another” was actually an exciting little fragment to me!
[QUOTE=Killerbee911;4510716]Is that feature or is that the comic? The X-men is a superhero comic how much responsibility should it have in areas like this? Is the X-men superhero story that can touch on social issues or Is it a book about social issues that happens to have superhumans in it? [/quote] I am not sure any of those questions have easy answers. The history of the comic line does tend to demand the latter to some extent. If it ceases to be a comic about social issues is it really still X-Men? It found its place by being this. It wasn’t born from whole cloth but it shifted to become this thing. It also shifted to become a soap opera, is that equally necessary?
[quote]The X-men does lionshare of work no other comic imo comes close to if the X-men wanted they could put Iceman, Northstar, Shatterstar, Rictor, Prodigy, Pyro and Anole as team for a book/story note I am not excusing them from doing better but I am saying X-men can field a team of LGBTQ superheroes where something like Justice League or Avengers you will struggle to point out one.[/quote] Yes certainly, over time it did much of the heavy lifting. We couldn’t have had Gillen’s Young Avengers without the path forged by X-Men. It is equally being pushed by comics outside of the big two. Should it continue to cede some of that ground as a trailblazer? Some may think it should. It was never the cutting edge, but rather the mainstream version of that.
Again, it comes down to how far we stretch analogy and equally whether some things still need to be analogous or just in the story. The analogy has always shifted and therefore what should it be doing right now?
[quote]If it does for some that is good enough. I spoke on it above it. X-men does not have to be everything that doesn't excuse it from being better in that area tho[/QUOTE] Yes I think you are right. It doesn’t necessarily have to land with everyone. It would perhaps have a better chance of landing in a less broad context. How broad should the context be?
Mainly I was focusing on widening out the debate. Not criticising X-Men’s past so much as asking harder and less easy to define questions.
[QUOTE=Psy-lock;4510721]Social Justice Warrior =\= person who fights for social justice. It carries implications that they are pursuing personal validation rather than any deep-seated conviction, and engaging in disingenuous arguments.[/QUOTE]
It was once described to me that social justice warrior is like basically attempting to implement manners in a fascist matter. Like, manners and well-intentions are good and all, but being a jerk about it, not as much.
[QUOTE=Electricmastro;4510732]It was once described to me that social justice warrior is like basically attempting to implement manners in a fascist matter. Like, manners and well-intentions are good and all, but being a jerk about it, not as much.[/QUOTE]
We, and indeed the comics, have a cultural issue about fighting new battles as if they are the same old battles using old language. We are perhaps too quick to look at modern issues and draw the old Marxism vs Fascism lines, even when very few people in our world would currently fit into those easy categories. Kind of like you were trying to say about how race issues have moved on so has politics.
[QUOTE=TOTALITY;4510723]Yeah, I don’t want to erase these guys when I say X-Men isn’t the standard bearer it could be. There are certainly gay characters, and generally more than in other super teams. Would love if the stories themselves started to get queerer in form, though I’m not sure exactly what that would look like. Though it’s played a little like playful provocation, I have to say HOX1’s “Actually, Sophie’s my human name. I’m thinking of taking another” was actually an exciting little fragment to me![/QUOTE]
I wasn't implying the X-men were utilizing these character to best that they could do with them. I was just saying that X-men is ahead of curve of being able to integrate different viewpoints without "forcing" thing. I am saying Iceman, Rictor and Northstar could end up story together and the light bulb clicks to writer in this action story we can touch what it means to be a gay man as well. Where as something like Avengers it would be like hey we are introduce our first gay couple in the avengers because they barely have any ground work .I am saying the X-men has the flexibility after years being better at this than everyone else still we want more from them when other aren't doing half as good. If others were doing half as good we wouldn't be pressuring the X-men to do more than other comic do.
One of things I was annoyed with is when they made a big announcement of X-men all female team. The X-men for years have had teams with female ratio being way higher than males. They should have just went with like it was normal a book (Plus I mean we don't announce when X-men have all white member team , DoX X-force is all white people we get don't a announcement in 2019 hey look this all white team). The X-men can do good stuff like all female team and it feels natural that because putting in the work for diversity for years now.
[QUOTE=Psy-lock;4510721]Social Justice Warrior =\= person who fights for social justice. [/QUOTE]
I know it end up meaning to some people. It is just that the best description of someone like Martin Luther King Jr would be Social Justice Warrior and legit pursuit social justice and fighting for it will always be good however people want to twist it.
[QUOTE=JKtheMac;4510736]We, and indeed the comics, have a cultural issue about fighting new battles as if they are the same old battles using old language. We are perhaps too quick to look at modern issues and draw the old Marxism vs Fascism lines, even when very few people in our world would currently fit into those easy categories. Kind of like you were trying to say about how race issues have moved on so has politics.[/QUOTE]
I don't deny America's problems, but I'll still acknowledge progress and the credit that it's due, as well as the people that have actively worked towards solutions as I should see them. I just try look at the good, the bad, and the ugly altogether, and the evidence, facts, and research to go along with it, as opposed to just relying on the internet's reactionary hearsay.
[QUOTE=Killerbee911;4510742]
One of things I was annoyed with is when they made a big announcement of X-men all female team. The X-men for years have had teams with female ratio being way higher than males. They should have just went with like it was normal a book.
[/QUOTE]
I am not so sure this was as big a problem as it seemed. The problem seems mostly related to how these things get marketed. Marvel feel like they have a marketing team still living in the turn of the century, unable to cope with the click bait world. They are adept at creating headlines but totally inept at staying ahead of the story or controlling the message.
Nothing wrong with creating headlines about an all female team, but follow it up immediately with a ‘and so what’ message before others say it for you.
[QUOTE=Electricmastro;4510747]I don't deny America's problems, but I'll still acknowledge progress and the credit that it's due, as well as the people that have actively worked towards solutions as I should see them. I just try look at the good, the bad, and the ugly altogether, and the evidence, facts, and research to go along with it, as opposed to just relying on the internet's reactionary hearsay.[/QUOTE]
Indeed. We all should do that. But I am reminded of Alan Moore getting upset about a respected academic discussing his long running rape themes.
Moore was the one shown to be way behind the times because instead of just quietly pointing out that his message was aimed at a different audience at a different time, and was a broadly progressive message at that time, he instead got super defensive and counterattacked against a perceived over zealous liberal perspective that wasn’t actually present in the critique. Not really gaining any fans in the process.
In other words it is very easy for the good guys to end up attacking other good guys because of noise.
Which could incidentally be a nice X-Men plot. :)
[QUOTE=JKtheMac;4510753]In other words it is very easy for the good guys to end up attacking other good guys because of noise.
Which could incidentally be a nice X-Men plot. :)[/QUOTE]
That’s a really interesting point, and I think people can easily forget that X-Men is a prism through which everyone sees something about their own condition. Xavier and Magneto may be like MLK and Malcolm X, but it’s also about youth alienation, sub-cultures, inter-generational conflict, LGBTQ, autistic spectrum disorders, hippies, goths, ravers, millennials, et cetera. There’s a bit theme about the fear that your children will be very different to you - something you may not understand - and it may leave you feeling irrelevant or obsolete. “Got to make way for the homo-superior”, as someone once sang. I think it’s clear that Grant Morrison really pushed the youth culture aspects of X-Men.
You can view X-Men as a race metaphor, or whatever you choose, but it’s really reductive to not see how it might affect others. I mean, it definitely is a race metaphor - Magneto’s radicalisation from his time in the death camps as a Jew makes his cause as a mutant explicit. But it’s also not.
[QUOTE=Psy-lock;4510721]Social Justice Warrior =\= person who fights for social justice. It carries implications that they are pursuing personal validation rather than any deep-seated conviction, and engaging in disingenuous arguments.[/QUOTE]
The thing is, the people who use this term as a pejorative are almost never well-meaning allies, and the meaning you’re describing pretty much IS the negative connotation people are using it to invoke when trying to shut down talk of anything progressive. The idea that no one could hold such beliefs without selfish motivations. Not many people who use it would admit to being “against” “social” “justice”, they just happen to be skeptical that anyone is for it for the right reasons and somehow it’s never an appropriate or ‘unforced’ time to talk about it. If you do consider yourself to be for progressive ideals, then I would suggest that any energy spent on weeding out poser allies could be better spent weeding out people who always seem to have a problem with how aggressively others are advocating good things.
[QUOTE=Electricmastro;4510709]Not sure if you're being sarcastically jokey, but I think it's worth mentioning that despite how the Hulk has caused has caused massive destruction over and over again, and how that kind of stuff has him chased by the army and reported on the news, it's shown he has a number of supporters and has even been pardoned, as Thunderbolt Ross mentioned, which seems to be a heck of a lot more appreciation given to him than the X-Men ever got, at least in more recent times, despite not purposely causing destruction like the Hulk did.
[img]https://2.bp.blogspot.com/SVCqPxh8Q-dnMUImzyU5wZpoe4BrMtjFR9QbTQ5iFtiqqOgCBL5XkIjXQ8PhuKIacH5rBjObmSS2=s0[/img][/QUOTE]
this wasn't on Earth tho...
[QUOTE=TOTALITY;4510778]The thing is, the people who use this term as a pejorative are almost never well-meaning allies, and the meaning you’re describing pretty much IS the negative connotation people are using it to invoke when trying to shut down talk of anything progressive. The idea that no one could hold such beliefs without selfish motivations. Not many people who use it would admit to being “against” “social” “justice”, they just happen to be skeptical that anyone is for it for the right reasons and somehow it’s never an appropriate or ‘unforced’ time to talk about it. If you do consider yourself to be for progressive ideals, then I would suggest that any energy spent on weeding out poser allies could be better spent weeding out people who always seem to have a problem with how aggressively others are advocating good things.[/QUOTE]
Ha! Great Post Dude!!!
[QUOTE=TOTALITY;4510778]The thing is, the people who use this term as a pejorative are almost never well-meaning allies, and the meaning you’re describing pretty much IS the negative connotation people are using it to invoke when trying to shut down talk of anything progressive. The idea that no one could hold such beliefs without selfish motivations. Not many people who use it would admit to being “against” “social” “justice”, they just happen to be skeptical that anyone is for it for the right reasons and somehow it’s never an appropriate or ‘unforced’ time to talk about it. If you do consider yourself to be for progressive ideals, then I would suggest that any energy spent on weeding out poser allies could be better spent weeding out people who always seem to have a problem with how aggressively others are advocating good things.[/QUOTE]
Well said. Also worth noting, actual, used definitions for Social Justice Warrior, though classified as a pejorative/most typically used disparagingly, it does not ascribe any of the connotations or motivations (or lack thereof) that were mentioned above. It's simply an insult against those advocating a progressive orthodoxy.
[QUOTE=Mr Cochese;4510771]That’s a really interesting point, and I think people can easily forget that X-Men is a prism through which everyone sees something about their own condition. Xavier and Magneto may be like MLK and Malcolm X, but it’s also about youth alienation, sub-cultures, inter-generational conflict, LGBTQ, autistic spectrum disorders, hippies, goths, ravers, millennials, et cetera. There’s a bit theme about the fear that your children will be very different to you - something you may not understand - and it may leave you feeling irrelevant or obsolete. “Got to make way for the homo-superior”, as someone once sang. I think it’s clear that Grant Morrison really pushed the youth culture aspects of X-Men.
You can view X-Men as a race metaphor, or whatever you choose, but it’s really reductive to not see how it might affect others. I mean, it definitely is a race metaphor - Magneto’s radicalisation from his time in the death camps as a Jew makes his cause as a mutant explicit. But it’s also not.[/QUOTE]
Look at you winning me over with your casual Bowie references. Although I think I generally agree ;)
But, my point is more that right now do we need X-Men to be all of those things? The metaphor has always been very broad. Should it remain so? Should it always be open to interpretation or should it get pointed occasionally. Does even that pointedness create a problem?
Personally I think you can be very pointed in the subtext of a comic but I have lost count of the number of times I have found myself debating the meaning of something and the subtext was apparently so below the surface it seemed possible to deny it was even there. Then a book like X-Men Blue comes along starts off with dragging the subtext into the text for all to see before mostly forgetting about it and getting lost in the plot.
Can we win here? Can we have both pointed subtext that actually lands and also zany superhero romps? It seems like only some writers are fully capable of this and some, if not most, find it incredibly difficult.
[QUOTE=TOTALITY;4510778]The thing is, the people who use this term as a pejorative are almost never well-meaning allies, [/QUOTE]
This is the danger though. Because sometimes they are. Sometimes the language used comes from a place separate from the actual rhetoric. So for example a centrist who wants to try and bring reason to a polarised debate may use language that one or other side consider to be a signifier of a set of attitudes that the self appointed peace-maker does not share.
Why? Because they are culturally grounded by their use of language.
It is usually better to avoid disputed or heavily loaded phrases but that does necessitate us knowing what those phrases mean to everyone in the debate, and we don’t all have that luxury.
Hence my analogy to noise causing arguments.
(This is not as key in comics so much as politics, but we should also be aware that sometimes that noise is placed there deliberately to manipulate us and polarise us.)
[QUOTE=jetengine;4510722]One thing I want is no more sentinels.
Where's the humans complaining about their homes being destroyed by the giant robot trying to capture a dude who's 'threatening' mutant ability is to turn cheese into chicken ? Wheres the anti-government types yelling about how THEIR taxes are being wasted on stupid giant robots when a dude in cheaper power armour could do the same job ? Etc[/QUOTE]
I think the sentinels could be used like the android/cyborgs in the Wolverine: Long Night/Lost Road podcasts. They could be used analogous to ICE or FBI (COINTELPRO).
[QUOTE=JKtheMac;4510788]
Can we win here? Can we have both pointed subtext that actually lands and also zany superhero romps? It seems like only some writers are fully capable of this and some, if not most, find it incredibly difficult.[/QUOTE]
I think that is what I was trying to ask earlier as well X-men is superhero about fighting aliens, robots,vampires, demons and supervillains but some people only see X-men comic about mutants being hated and feared and metaphor for real life minorities .I think X-men is both things but while fighting Aliens X-men can also be about being a metaphor for minorities. I think the X-men has suffered some from forcing itself to be only hey mutants are feared and hated minority going as far reducing its population to fit the narrative rather it coming out in cleverly written stories about superheroes that you can see the metaphor. I think it is fine to be direct with metaphor at times. But I think X-men loses a little something when it is strong arming yeah we are hated thing.
I get on facebook and see clowish hatred nearly daily but in my life I have only had sporadic incidents of hate. X-men hate comes across clowish at times to me like this isn't reflecting the real world. When the X-men can't live among humans I don't think the can be a good metaphor for minorities
[QUOTE=Harpsikord;4510620]Are you sure you're a fan of X-Men comics? Are you [b]really[/b] sure? That you're a fan? Of the X-Men? Who have been about bigotry, hatred and more since 1963? Are you really, [b]really[/b] sure?[/QUOTE]
Found Bendis.
[QUOTE=FIGHT;4510819]Found Bendis.[/QUOTE]
If overuse of adverbs in posts is significant then I’m Bendis and so is my wife.
[QUOTE=FIGHT;4510819]Found Bendis.[/QUOTE]
needs about 3 more exclamations of "Jeez!"
[QUOTE=JKtheMac;4510788]Look at you winning me over with your casual Bowie references. Although I think I generally agree ;)
But, my point is more that right now do we need X-Men to be all of those things? The metaphor has always been very broad. Should it remain so? Should it always be open to interpretation or should it get pointed occasionally. Does even that pointedness create a problem?
Personally I think you can be very pointed in the subtext of a comic but I have lost count of the number of times I have found myself debating the meaning of something and the subtext was apparently so below the surface it seemed possible to deny it was even there. Then a book like X-Men Blue comes along starts off with dragging the subtext into the text for all to see before mostly forgetting about it and getting lost in the plot.
Can we win here? Can we have both pointed subtext that actually lands and also zany superhero romps? It seems like only some writers are fully capable of this and some, if not most, find it incredibly difficult.[/QUOTE]
The question is, also, whether today's authors are interested in making parallels, analogies, comparisons with our real difficult issues. I know Claremont was… interested in politics and all… So he couldn't help talking about it.
Hickman seems to love puzzles and mind games more… also loves to cause shocks to his readers. I may be wrong but I don't feel he's interested by in-depth questions.
Comics are no more a popular medium, the place is occupied by movies and series and I don't think that editors want to take the risk to upset a shrinking readership.
[QUOTE=Harpsikord;4510620]Are you sure you're a fan of X-Men comics? Are you [b]really[/b] sure? That you're a fan? Of the X-Men? Who have been about bigotry, hatred and more since 1963? Are you really, [b]really[/b] sure?[/QUOTE]
LOL, I know it. Every time I see someone complain about X-Men and "SJW" I'm thinking... the X-Men are the pure definition of Social Justice Warriors... LOL
[QUOTE=BroHomo;4510780][B]this wasn't on Earth tho...
[/B]
Ha! Great Post Dude!!![/QUOTE]
That page was from World War Hulk so it was on Earth.
[QUOTE=pandafarmer;4510881]LOL, I know it. Every time I see someone complain about X-Men and "SJW" I'm thinking... the X-Men are the pure definition of Social Justice Warriors... LOL[/QUOTE]
[I]Social justice warrior (SJW) is a pejorative term for an individual who promotes socially progressive views, including feminism, civil rights, and multiculturalism, as well as identity politics. [B]The accusation that somebody is an SJW carries implications that they are pursuing personal validation rather than any deep-seated conviction, and engaging in disingenuous arguments.[/B][/I]
I don't think it applies to X-men.
"Social justice warrior" is a term that only came up during this current age of the internet. MLK Jr. and Malcolm X were referred to as "revolutionaries" rather than SJWs.
[QUOTE=Zelena;4510839]The question is, also, whether today's authors are interested in making parallels, analogies, comparisons with our real difficult issues. I know Claremont was… interested in politics and all… So he couldn't help talking about it.
Hickman seems to love puzzles and mind games more… also loves to cause shocks to his readers. [B]I may be wrong but I don't feel he's interested by in-depth questions.[/B]
Comics are no more a popular medium, the place is occupied by movies and series and I don't think that editors want to take the risk to upset a shrinking readership.[/QUOTE]
Hickman is totally fascinated by in-depth questions.
For example his SHIELD book was partly about how continuity in comics is being pulled in two intractable directions and are a problem to be solved. His Avengers run was partly about modern comics and their over-reliance on darkness and by analogy with the obscure Cabbalistic notion of the Tree of Death, how they are in danger of deconstructing themselves to death. His Black Monday Murders is partly a commentary on the over reliance of digital algorithms in finance and by analogy with magic how those that write them and use them could be sinister. I won't even begin to dig into The Nightly News!
We have yet to see the full shape of the questions he is asking about mutants. I get a slight hint he may be interested in 'big data' but it is too early to tell. It might explain the exponential elements and treating mutant genetics as variables to be manipulated.
I can't think of many writers that ask such deep questions. Moore, Morrison, Ennis maybe.