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[QUOTE=trooper_thorn;5769665]According to Comichron the orders for #1 were 68k and the orders for #2 were 40k (roughly a 41% drop in sales). Typically the first book will sell far better than any other and then decline until it reaches stability about 8-9 months in (1 year at the longest).
If we assume that it will follow the standard sales trajectory then you're looking at it being in the 20k range at best by the end of the year. As for digital rankings, they're useless unless they've started releasing actual numbers.
Anyhow, they must be worried about the numbers to be doing this so shortly after the Robin gimmick.[/QUOTE]
I don't think this being done have anything to do with the state of Jon's sales, given that there was rumours about this since issue 1.
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Making Jon bi was undoubtedly something Taylor pitched from the very start. He says as much himself.
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[QUOTE=garazza;5769676]Seriously, Jon could've very easily haven been the next Miles. The funny thing is that Riri's character was rehabed and became better when Bendis left.[/QUOTE]
Miles also got better after Bendis left. He is good at creating, but should let other writers to do it. benids haven't been good for years and DC was wrong to offer him a special contract
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Also, Taylor stated something in an interview that pissed me off. I don't care about Jon's sexuality one way or the other but I do care about Lois Lane. Taylor called Lois a damsel and implied because Jon's current love interested is male that he'll be more of a true partner than Lois was to Clark. Lois Lane is one of the strongest female characters in comics. This attitude smacks of sexism to me, f' Taylor. :mad: :mad: :mad:
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[QUOTE=Sacred Knight;5769655]He's like the anti-Miles Morales. Everything Marvel did right to create, foster, and make Miles a legit Spider-Man worthy of the name is everything DC has done comically wrong with Jon Kent.[/QUOTE]
I get the frustration, but the statement still holds water. The point I'm making is in the macro. Black Spider-Man will always be Spider-Man because if he's not there's gonna be hell to pay. Similarly, Bi Superman has upped his chances of staying Superman for the foreseeable future by quite a lot, because "Superman's bi son, Solar-Guy" isn't going to go over well after the headline was "the new Superman is bi".
Also, Riri's getting her own show in the MCU. Jon should be so lucky.
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I get where you're coming from, but I still think its vastly overstated in regards to this potential backlash. I think it'd be much milder than we hardcores imagine because we're so deeply invested in a way that we're still a very niche minority.
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[QUOTE=Sacred Knight;5769655]The only thing it does is mask how one-dimensional he is. Actually I take that back,[I] this[/I] is his one dimension. He had nothing before this as an adult that wasn't explicitly taken from Superman, and repurposed as something he was but Clark wasn't quite. But its a temporary mask. It'll give a boost for a month or so and that's it. It doesn't solve the main issue, that there is nothing of true substance that makes him genuinely unique to the actual Superman to remotely justify replacing an icon with him. Just being bisexual isn't a magic bean that will make up for him being both a symbolic and literal hijacking of the Clark Kent/Kal-El/Superman character.
He's like the anti-Miles Morales. Everything Marvel did right to create, foster, and make Miles a legit Spider-Man worthy of the name is everything DC has done comically wrong with Jon Kent. He's more like Riri Williams, and even she is a better character.[/QUOTE]
I have no clue how you can point to Miles as “doing things right” yet say Jon did things wrong. Miles:
-Has the same dynamic as Peter in that he’s a nerd as a civilian and a quipster as a hero, he and Jon are both cast in the mold of the people they’re replacing
-Peter and Miles share the name Spider-Man despite Peter usually not being happy about sharing it (he’s upset with Ben Reilly for using it currently)
-Fights Peter’s villains and has no iconic villains of his own
-His most popular LI is Spider-Gwen, an alt of Peter’s iconic LI
-Went through a huge time skip pretty much immediately, he started out as 13 and then we skipped a year or two after his mom died. He’s convoluted as hell just like Jon, he was born in the UU, brought over, and his continuity is a mess of “does he remember what happened or not?” with different writers giving different answers. We don’t know how he got his powers or why he’s Spider-Man when Peter is still alive (I haven’t been following his book religiously since he switched from Ultimate to 616 so someone can correct me if I’m wrong).
Miles is popular because he’s black Spider-Man. If they push Jon in outside media the way Marvel has pushed Miles, Jon will have a fanbase as queer Superman. They’re both in pretty similar status quos.
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In the set up. He replaced Peter Parker in an alternate world first. So you got used to him without the feeling that he was replacing anyone (yes I realize Clark still has Action, but that's not the point, its how its happening, its in the taking things away and moving him around out to accommodate something else). He wasn't some classic character's child or something where there was this extra weight moves could easily feel extra rushed. The biggest problem with Jon's age ups outside with being cheap is that being the son of Superman there was a palpable feel of complete waste on Superman and Lois' end. They'd been married for 20 years and they had a kid who was a baby for one issue of a crossover and really small for one mini-series. Not an issue with Miles. He was just a new guy, no strong connections at least at first. In time, people got used to him in the costume, using the name. Yes his immediate and natural grab was that he was black, I'm not blind to that. But due to the way he was built up, by the time he came over to the main universe he was accepted with open arms. He's not Peter. I don't like him better than Peter and I'm sure the majority feel the same. But he's accepted within the lore wearing that mask and sharing that name. It felt earned on the page at least to me. And I don't feel a or two a time skip is at all comparable to two age ups of 10 years plus. That's me. Was he absolutely perfect? No. God knows I have tons of problems with Marvel just like I do with DC. and I still prefer DC despite everything. But was he built a hell of a lot better than this? In my opinion absolutely.
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[QUOTE=Vordan;5769704]I have no clue how you can point to Miles as “doing things right” yet say Jon did things wrong. Miles:
-Has the same dynamic as Peter in that he’s a nerd as a civilian and a quipster as a hero, he and Jon are both cast in the mold of the people they’re replacing
-Peter and Miles share the name Spider-Man despite Peter usually not being happy about sharing it (he’s upset with Ben Reilly for using it currently)
-Fights Peter’s villains and has no iconic villains of his own
-His most popular LI is Spider-Gwen, an alt of Peter’s iconic LI
-Went through a huge time skip pretty much immediately, he started out as 13 and then we skipped a year or two after his mom died. He’s convoluted as hell just like Jon, he was born in the UU, brought over, and his continuity is a mess of “does he remember what happened or not?” with different writers giving different answers. We don’t know how he got his powers or why he’s Spider-Man when Peter is still alive (I haven’t been following his book religiously since he switched from Ultimate to 616 so someone can correct me if I’m wrong).
Miles is popular because he’s black Spider-Man. If they push Jon in outside media the way Marvel has pushed Miles, Jon will have a fanbase as queer Superman. They’re both in pretty similar status quos.[/QUOTE]
Until the Spider-Verse movie, Miles wasn't particulary interesting. Bendis (his creator) truly was his worst enemy, because under him Miles was so and so at best.
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My takeaway from this is that DC needs to lock down Tom Taylor as a exclusive writer. He keeps giving them positive headliens and his books are always gurranteed hits.
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[QUOTE=Sacred Knight;5769702]I get where you're coming from, but I still think its vastly overstated in regards to this potential backlash. I think it'd be much milder than we hardcores imagine because we're so deeply invested in a way that we're still a very niche minority.[/QUOTE]
If he gets outside media play as the heir to the Superman name or just flat out gets the Superman name-- even in an animated film-- it'll be big, yeah.
Strange. Going into this era I'd have assumed Jon would be the one limping along as Yara and Jace dominated the conversation. But Jon is keeping up, and in some case overtaking the conversation. Doesn't hurt that his is *the* Superman book with eyes on it right now, and this only ups that.
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[QUOTE=Sacred Knight;5769709]In the building. He replaced Peter Parker in an alternate world first. So you got used to him without the feeling that he was replacing anyone. In that time, people got used to him in the costume, using the name. Yes his immediate and natural grab was that he was black. By the time he came over to the main universe he was accepted with open arms. He's not Peter. I don't like him better than Peter and I'm sure the majority feel the same. And I don't feel a year time skip to him is at all comparable to two age ups of 10 years plus.[/QUOTE]
Level with me: If they spent 10 years building up Jon would you accept him taking over for Clark? Because they’ve spent years building Miles and I assure you [B]none[/B] of the hardcore Peter guys are open to Miles taking over for Peter in any permanent capacity. They like Peter not Miles and they won’t ever want him to replace Peter.
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[QUOTE=Vordan;5769704]I have no clue how you can point to Miles as “doing things right” yet say Jon did things wrong. Miles:
-Has the same dynamic as Peter in that he’s a nerd as a civilian and a quipster as a hero, he and Jon are both cast in the mold of the people they’re replacing
-Peter and Miles share the name Spider-Man despite Peter usually not being happy about sharing it (he’s upset with Ben Reilly for using it currently)
-Fights Peter’s villains and has no iconic villains of his own
-His most popular LI is Spider-Gwen, an alt of Peter’s iconic LI
-Went through a huge time skip pretty much immediately, he started out as 13 and then we skipped a year or two after his mom died. He’s convoluted as hell just like Jon, he was born in the UU, brought over, and his continuity is a mess of “does he remember what happened or not?” with different writers giving different answers. We don’t know how he got his powers or why he’s Spider-Man when Peter is still alive (I haven’t been following his book religiously since he switched from Ultimate to 616 so someone can correct me if I’m wrong).
Miles is popular because he’s black Spider-Man. If they push Jon in outside media the way Marvel has pushed Miles, Jon will have a fanbase as queer Superman. They’re both in pretty similar status quos.[/QUOTE]
Peter's problem with sharing a mantle is probably because of the way Ben dropped the news. The way Ben revealed things was kind of douchey.
He never had a problem with sharing a mantle with Miles.
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[QUOTE=Vordan;5769716]Level with me: If they spent 10 years building up Jon would you accept him taking over for Clark? Because they’ve spent years building Miles and I assure you [B]none[/B] of the hardcore Peter guys are open to Miles taking over for Peter in any permanent capacity. They like Peter not Miles and they won’t ever want him to replace Peter.[/QUOTE]
Can't speak for him but....
Would I accept it? Yes. Would I enjoy it if it was exactly how it is here? Probably not. I'd still be disappointed but I'd complain a lot less lol
Biases aside, I just don't find Taylor's Jon to be a particularly interesting person. He's still too Clark lite for my taste. It was cute as a kid in his dad's shadow but now that he's grown and in the Superman role, himself, it's irritating. And it's part of the reason I'm not a fan of young heroes taking over for their mentors. Especially when said mentor is their parent.
Everything Taylor has been setting out to do in this book feel like things he did better in his old X-Men run and his current Nightwing run
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That's the thing though, that's what I credit Marvel with not doing. No I would not want him to replace 616 Peter. And they haven't done that and I've been thankful for it. Now I'm not going to give them too much overall credit here, because now it looks like they're going to replace him for a while with Ben. That's not for me either. But in regards to Miles I feel they did a better job.
