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[QUOTE=Doctor Bifrost;1807483]This is not quite an answer to your question but: I consider the moment that Dick Grayson took on the Nightwing name as one of the great moments in DCU history. He said he did it to honor the two greatest heroes he knew, the ones to whom he owed the most: Batman and Superman. But to understand that, you have to know some of the history.
For many years, Batman and Superman - especially in the pages of [I]World's Finest[/I], where they teamed up (with Robin) every month - were essentially best friends. They knew each other's secret identities (when almost no one else did). They helped each other out of personal problems, sometimes disguising themselves as each other to deal with secret ID problems. Superman would visit the Batcave; Batman would go to the Fortress of Solitude. (This was at a time when guest-starring, team-ups, and crossing-overs were much more rare than they are today.) They were buddies.
And, with Robin, they formed a sort of family - spending time together, knowing each others' secrets. (Not a homosexual family so much as a homosocial one.) It was as if Robin was being raised by the two of them together.
Now, on top of that, there were a series of stories in which Superman and Jimmy Olsen visited the Bottle City of Kandor, a Kryptonian environment where Superman has no superpowers. Forced for plot reasons to disguise themselves, they take on the roles of Nightwing and Flamebird, very deliberately inspired by Batman and Robin. They even have a Nightcave, and get a dog assistant named called Nighthound. (Later, Kandorians Van-Zee - Superman's identical second cousin! - and Ak-Var take on the roles.)
So: Nightwing is essentially Superman when he's taking on the role of Batman. So when Dick Grayson said that, out of respect for the two of them, he would become Nightwing, I thought: wow. That's perfect!
So the identity always had a strong resonance to me.
Since then, there have been so many retcons and reboots that the history has been lost. Often, in the early stages of a reboot, Batman is shown to be suspicious of Superman (Thanks, Frank Miller!), so Robin doesn't really spend so much time with Superman. When the Dick-chooses-the-name-Nightwing moment is revisited, there is always a vestigial effort to connect the name to Krypton. But exactly who and what on Krypton was called Nightwing has changed frequently, and Dick's choice doesn't usually seem to make the same kind of sense it did originally - it's kind of shoehorned in as an homage or Easter egg more than anything else.
So: all that said, it doesn't mean what it used to. And at this point it would be fine with me if Dick Grayson - dealing with the fact that his old secrets are now widely known - decided to pick a new superhero name altogether. And maybe stop being Dick Grayson, too, and take on an alias. It would make sense.
But DC corporate has so much invested in the intellectual property of the names Dick Grayson and Nightwing that it's very unlikely that they would do anything like that, no matter how much sense it would make in a story. So mind-wiping/evidence-wiping superspy satellite it'll probably be.
But it's worth remembering that they did once have Dick Grayson give up the superhero name that had always been associated with him, and take on an entirely new one. It retrospect, it was a pretty bold thing for DC to do. And at the time: wow.[/QUOTE]
You pretty much hit every point I was going to type out in detail but you did it for me. Thanks :D
Agent 37 never felt like a true transition like Dick to Robin or Robin to Nightwing. There wasn't a sense of this is how things will be forever. (or at least the next decade or so) I love seeing Dick run across rooftops and be himself as a person and as a hero. Grayson as a series never did anything for me, we got to see Dick look hot and be funny and be a badass. (There were a couple issues that had great character stuff) But he never felt like he belonged or that this was an important time of his life that would have huge character repercussions for years to come.
Dick being Nightwing means something to me and it should mean something to the greater DCU. Nightwing is where Dick truly shines as himself because it's who he is. A true hero, not some errand boy for faceless organization. (pun unintended)
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Nightwing is just a piece of the Batman franchise
Costumed vigilante no different than any of the other Bat family titles and books.
Grayson was the first time he ever had his own corner of the DCU and that mostly happened because DC had not payed any attention to the spy section of the DCU
Now that he might be going back to Nightwing I'm sure it will be a return to the status quo with him back in Gotham.
DC really should work on getting people to know Dick Grayson outside of his identies as Robin or Nightwing and Grayson was that for him.
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[QUOTE=Nite-Wing;1808315]Nightwing is just a piece of the Batman franchise
Costumed vigilante no different than any of the other Bat family titles and books.
Grayson was the first time he ever had his own corner of the DCU and that mostly happened because DC had not payed any attention to the spy section of the DCU
Now that he might be going back to Nightwing I'm sure it will be a return to the status quo with him back in Gotham.
DC really should work on getting people to know Dick Grayson outside of his identies as Robin or Nightwing and Grayson was that for him.[/QUOTE]
If you can't make money then DC won't invest in you
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[QUOTE=Nite-Wing;1808315]Nightwing is just a piece of the Batman franchise
Costumed vigilante no different than any of the other Bat family titles and books.
Grayson was the first time he ever had his own corner of the DCU and that mostly happened because DC had not payed any attention to the spy section of the DCU
Now that he might be going back to Nightwing I'm sure it will be a return to the status quo with him back in Gotham.
DC really should work on getting people to know Dick Grayson outside of his identies as Robin or Nightwing and Grayson was that for him.[/QUOTE]
The painful truth.
But I'm not going to give up this fast, not until we at least know what happens with Rebirth first. Sure, "Dick Grayson is back to the centre of the DCU" could just mean Dick is Nightwing working in Gotham and leading his team of Titans, but it could also mean something way cooler, so I want to at least see if SeeKing's promise is kept to some extent.
Also, I swear, if they're going back to giving him the mask... It's so obvious that they are, but Dick being a public hero who doesn't wear a mask would be really different in the DCU right now. Visually distinct, too.
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[QUOTE=Grayson - The Dark Heir;1808395]Also, I swear, if they're going back to giving him the mask... It's so obvious that they are, but Dick being a public hero who doesn't wear a mask would be really different in the DCU right now. Visually distinct, too.[/QUOTE]
No matter what else happens, I hope he gets to keep the hypnos. It's a nifty gadget, if you can purge the nasty control mechanisms from it, and it gives him a weapon that nobody else in the Batman family has. With it, he wouldn't need a mask.
That said, I'd like to see him remain involved in the DC spy networks and spend a good part of his time globetrotting. Gotham should be the home base he always comes back to, but roaming internationally seems a good fit for the ex circus boy in him.
I will speak up for the Grayson "costume", as I rather like it and it's not getting a lot of love here right now. I would miss the casual dress if he went back to Nightwing, though I like several of the Nightwing costumes pretty well too.
But what I want most from whatever June and beyond brings for Dick, is a hybrid persona - where he takes everything he's ever been, absorbs and acknowledges it, and continues to use it going forward. That's progress, that's evolution. I don't mind if spy or superhero is uppermost, just so long as he builds on the foundations of both.
(And please, please, please... if he can keep Seeley, King, Janin or all three while doing it.)
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[QUOTE=Kurisu;1806086]A huge regression, you mean.[/QUOTE]
I've also agreed with this, but if they can somehow balance the Nightwing persona while keeping this fresh take on Dicky G., I'd be all for it.
As long as the keep the same tone and let Dick have his own corner in the DC, I don't care what they call him. When he goes back to Batman-lite, that's where the problems arise.
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[QUOTE=Vinsanity;1806810]People know him as Robin not Nightwing. All the major stuff Dick Grayson has been Robin (Batman Forever, Batman and Robin, Batman TV Show). Your normal person on the street will tell you that Dick Grayson is Robin. I would say that NW is not that marketable or popular than what comic book fans really think.[/QUOTE]
I agree with this.
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[QUOTE=byrd156;1808224]I wonder when that day will come.[/QUOTE]
It won't unfortunately. They can't even get him on tv without people backing out of the deal.
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[QUOTE=jules;1808508]No matter what else happens, I hope he gets to keep the hypnos. It's a nifty gadget, if you can purge the nasty control mechanisms from it, and it gives him a weapon that nobody else in the Batman family has. With it, he wouldn't need a mask.
That said, I'd like to see him remain involved in the DC spy networks and spend a good part of his time globetrotting. Gotham should be the home base he always comes back to, but roaming internationally seems a good fit for the ex circus boy in him.
I will speak up for the Grayson "costume", as I rather like it and it's not getting a lot of love here right now. I would miss the casual dress if he went back to Nightwing, though I like several of the Nightwing costumes pretty well too.
But what I want most from whatever June and beyond brings for Dick, is a hybrid persona - where he takes everything he's ever been, absorbs and acknowledges it, and continues to use it going forward. That's progress, that's evolution. I don't mind if spy or superhero is uppermost, just so long as he builds on the foundations of both.
(And please, please, please... if he can keep Seeley, King, Janin or all three while doing it.)[/QUOTE]
Let's toss this out there...
Superheroes tend to focus on individuals. That's what the costumes generally do, you know...they give individuality their own identities.
But those aren't the only villains around these days. While there are criminal groups, there are also villainous corporations and governments. If you put an Agent: Nightwing up against corporations, quasi governments, etc., that fits a niche that a lot of other DC heroes don't fill.
That's a way forward, and that's something I'd see a Dick Grayson embrace enthusiastically.
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I'll miss Grayson as a theme more than I thought I would 2 year or so ago, when Forever Evil happened and all we heard in the build up was this key role Dick Grayson had (turned out he was strapped to a chair for the big event) I was excited but it was another false dawn added to the identity reveal he became fodder, the talk of a new female Nightwing under Tynion (Harper then Bluebird by fan reaction, possibly) and then Dick Grayson a spy for no reason other than an editorial decision seemed so strange and pointless,
fast forward to what we've had for this book minus the last couple which I've felt it's lost it's way in a rushed through way to get in a position for Rebirth and losing the creative team (a common Nightwing problem) it hits me as another missed opportunity, Grayson may not sell as well as some of the other DC books but I can guarantee it was ten times more original and more interesting, it gave a character who had been around for 75 years an area to play in that had never been seen before and even ended up franchising out with Midnighter being re-launched on the back of it,
King and Seeley always said this was their way of elevating Dick Grayson to the status that DC hold Batman, Superman and Wonder Woman and creatively I bet they loved having a big name in comics to work with and so much freedom to play around something that doesn't happen at the other 3, I can see it being a big regret down the line that they didn't get to finish the job.
Nightwing is my favourite superhero Dick Grayson is my favourite character and going back to Nightwing no matter how much I loved all of the Titans and Dixon's Nightwing this is a regression and more in line with the doubts I had in the first paragraph that it was an editorial decision not creative because creatively he is thriving and I can't see how becoming Nightwing improves anything yet, who knows in the future of Grayson it may have naturally evolved the stories were covered and there was a job to do as Nightwing again but now a Nightwing would get lost in the shuffle, these Rebirths, New 52 and any other reboot/fresh start only benefit the few and not the full DCU they become a jumping on point for a few but as so many start at the same time people only have so much disposable money and have to drop a few, even promotionally do you think Dick Grayson going back to Nightwing will make the websites anywhere near the level of King is taking over a Batman book to be available every 2 weeks? no because the bigger players are changing at the same time as the smaller
Apologies for the long post but as I think someone else has already stated fans of Dick Grayson will not realise how good they had it until 2 years of being Nightwing and the novelty wears away as he plays a secondary role (if we're lucky) in the next Batman summer blockbuster story
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Fans of Dick Grayson already know how good we had it. Im still hoping were not losing it...
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The Rebirth interview with Johns was interesting also the comments about a certain Bat Character having such importance I'm thinking it must be Dick Grayson as the Rebirth has been about rebuilding the legacy that's been lost
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[QUOTE=Markov;1809191]The Rebirth interview with Johns was interesting also the comments about a certain Bat Character having such importance I'm thinking it must be Dick Grayson as the Rebirth has been about rebuilding the legacy that's been lost[/QUOTE]
Nah. It sounded like it was somebody that hadn't been seen or used that much. More likely Cassandra Cain or Stephanie Brown.
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[QUOTE=Dzetoun;1809624]Nah. It sounded like it was somebody that hadn't been seen or used that much. More likely Cassandra Cain or Stephanie Brown.[/QUOTE]
Willing to bet that somebody will be "fan-favorite" Harper Row, unless Snyder has no input. If not her, then likely Didio favorite Tim Drake. Dick Grayson fans are long-practiced at guarding their optimism. I'd like to see more of Damian Wayne, but he seems well on his way to becoming another DC Whipping Boy.
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I'll miss Grayson, to me it made a bold statement. There was no mask and no suit, just him. Grayson nailed it on the head in issue number six; no matter what name, suit, or role he has he'll always be Dick Grayson. I felt like Grayson was the ultimate culmination of everything he's ever been put into one. Because at the end of the day Dick doesn't need a mask or symbol to help people, it's just what he does
