people are asking
people are asking
Correct me if I'm wrong but, isn't Shang the best martial artist in terms of pure skill in the MU? If so I'd assume you'd want the person with the most skill to be Iron Fist.
No.........
[QUOTE=Dragonick;3446844]Correct me if I'm wrong but, isn't Shang the best martial artist in terms of pure skill in the MU? If so I'd assume you'd want the person with the most skill to be Iron Fist.[/QUOTE]
that would be the assumption, yes.
He might have been better for the Defenders instead of Iron fist because he requires less special effects and more of a blank canvas as a character so you could had mold him how you want. You could have had him be an ex-member of the Hand and that would have given you a chance to make the Hand less of a vague threat. His backstory is his dad is an international criminal mastermind so you could just fold that into the Hand's inner circle.
If you were really bold you could have made his mom Madame gao because her whole schtick is to be everybody's evil grandma. Literally that is the subtext btw her and Kingpin as well her and Danny.
In the canon he wouldn't have an interesting conflict like Danny or Pei so it wouldn't be as appealing to me. He would be K'un L'un safe choice like a good version of Davos.
But you could make him a different weapon like Dog Brother or the Prince of Orphans and that would be a more practical choice to me. The Prince isn't always on the up and up so you could reuse my Hand pitch.
The dog brother is considered the patron saint of orphans making him a good counterpoint to Shang-chi's father who trained orphans to be assasins.
Squirrel Girl would be the greatest Iron Fist ever.
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Yes, despite the push he's been getting with the tv show, Danny hasn't been resonating with the fans. Now with the Avengers 123809234210 B.C, they should make a story where Shang Chi gets inspired by the original Iron Fist and takes the mantle.
Shang Chi is the best Shang Chi. Iron Fist is the best Iron Fist.
[QUOTE=Mike_Murdock;3447135]Shang Chi is the best Shang Chi. Iron Fist is the best Iron Fist.[/QUOTE]
Iron Fist is a title. Shang Chi is someone's name.
[QUOTE=Michael Watkins;3447174]Iron Fist is a title. Shang Chi is someone's name.[/QUOTE]
Really thought, it's a title made for Danny Rand.
It's like Captain America. There there are other Captain America's but Steve Rogers IS Captain America. Everyone else is just keeping the shield warm for him.
[QUOTE=XPac;3447277]Really thought, it's a title made for Danny Rand.
It's like Captain America. There there are other Captain America's but Steve Rogers IS Captain America. Everyone else is just keeping the shield warm for him.[/QUOTE]
Difference is that Iron Fist is a legacy title in-story though, while Cap was created for Steve.
Shang Chi wouldn't act as an Immortal Weapon for Kun Lun so that pretty much automatically rules him out. This is an instance of character traits overriding any relevant skill sets.
[COLOR="#000080"]No.
I like Shang as Shang and Danny as Iron Fist. [/COLOR]
[QUOTE=johnnybourbon;3447317]Shang Chi wouldn't act as an Immortal Weapon for Kun Lun so that pretty much automatically rules him out. This is an instance of character traits overriding any relevant skill sets.[/QUOTE]
but a lot of Danny's problems derived from him neglecting to act as an Immortal Weapon for Kun lun. and who's to say that Shang, if he went through what Danny did, wouldn't have tried to customize the role/change Kunlun's rules? he rebelled against his father, right?
[QUOTE=XPac;3447277]Really thought, it's a title made for Danny Rand.
It's like Captain America. There there are other Captain America's but Steve Rogers IS Captain America. Everyone else is just keeping the shield warm for him.[/QUOTE]
I, personally, only acknowledge Danny as Iron Fist. but he's just one of several. Orson Randall, arguably, was cooler. Junzo Muto had his turn wielding the chi, as well. heck, wasn't he supposed to be training some little girl to be Iron Fist? I haven't actively read his title since Brubaker and Fraction left.
[QUOTE=Michael Watkins;3447360]but a lot of Danny's problems derived from him neglecting to act as an Immortal Weapon for Kun lun. and who's to say that Shang, if he went through what Danny did, wouldn't have tried to customize the role/change Kunlun's rules? he rebelled against his father, right?[/QUOTE]
Sure, maybe if we went back far enough but at some point doing so basically just leaves the characters blank slates and it all becomes "What if" (and yes I would totally read that one). That said, as it stands Shang Chi wouldn't willingly put himself in that position or tolerate the baggage that comes with it, and he is smart enough to see it before he signs up so I just cant see that working.
[QUOTE=johnnybourbon;3447471]Sure, maybe if we went back far enough but at some point doing so basically just leaves the characters blank slates and it all becomes "What if" (and yes I would totally read that one). That said, as it stands Shang Chi wouldn't willingly put himself in that position or tolerate the baggage that comes with it, and he is smart enough to see it before he signs up so I just cant see that working.[/QUOTE]
Shang appeared semi-recently in Iron Fist's book. what role did he play?
To actually become Iron Fist you have to be raised and be trained in Kun Lun by a Thunder from childhood. A person who becomes Iron Fist would also have to be willing to be Kun Luns "sworn protector", which may not be a problem for Shang. Either way Shang would need to have a recon that basically took him back to square one for it to work just based off the rules of Kun Lun. I wonder how his fan base would handle that?
It would be cool if Shang still had his duplication powers from Hickmans run on Avengers though.
[QUOTE=Michael Watkins;3447483]Shang appeared semi-recently in Iron Fist's book. what role did he play?[/QUOTE]
I cant say, I only recently started checking back into Marvels current offerings so by the time I found out about it Shang Chi had left the story and been replaced with Sabertooth
[QUOTE=Michael Watkins;3447483]Shang appeared semi-recently in Iron Fist's book. what role did he play?[/QUOTE]
they had a team up because shang-chi found out this cult wanted to kill danny for reasons.
[QUOTE=DragonsChi;3447530]To actually become Iron Fist you have to be raised and be trained in Kun Lun by a Thunder from childhood. A person who becomes Iron Fist would also have to be willing to be Kun Luns "sworn protector", which may not be a problem for Shang. Either way Shang would need to have a recon that basically took him back to square one for it to work just based off the rules of Kun Lun. I wonder how his fan base would handle that?
It would be cool if Shang still had his duplication powers from Hickmans run on Avengers though.[/QUOTE]
For whatever reason, marvel can no longer use the fu manchu angle, so you might as well completly reboot him. But what’s this about duplication powers? Is shang chi the collective man, now?
[QUOTE=Michael Watkins;3447174]Iron Fist is a title. Shang Chi is someone's name.[/QUOTE]
Iron Fist is Danny Rand. When people name characters they use their title. Hulk not Bruce Banner. Captain America not Steve Rogers.
If you ask straight forward who should be the Iron Fist, I'd probably say Shang Chi.
However, with comics, there's the factor of fate that plays into it. Marvel has retroactively provided the same fate as Peter Parker to other characters, but there is something to Peter being the guy everyone came to know as being bitten by a radioactive spider to gain powers and become Spider-Man.
In the same way, Danny Rand was in the right place and time to become the Iron Fist. He should be the Iron Fist. Now, if they ever explore the story of where Danny were to be killed and a new Iron Fist would need to rise, I say Marvel could figure out a way to create a new character to become Iron Fist. Whether that's Shang Chi or someone completely new, it would be a good way to bring things about.
I thought Orson Randall was bad ass, as well as the brief glimpses we got at prior Iron Fists, but Rand is the only Iron Fist I recognize at the moment.
Turning Shang Chi into Iron Fist would mean he would no longer be Shang Chi. The specific factors that made him Shang Chi would no longer apply if he was Iron Fist. His father, of course, but also his scorn for "games of deceit and death."
I'd much rather they bring Pei back and do more with her. Because Pei is [I]the goddamn best[/I].
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[QUOTE=nnelg;3447646]Iron Fist is Danny Rand. When people name characters they use their title. Hulk not Bruce Banner. Captain America not Steve Rogers.[/QUOTE]
I call him Steve Rogers. I consider Hulk to be a separate individual sharing space with Banner. and the Iron Fist is, both, a title and what Danny calls the display of his power.
[QUOTE=protege;3447612]For whatever reason, marvel can no longer use the fu manchu angle, so you might as well completly reboot him. But what’s this about duplication powers? Is shang chi the collective man, now?[/QUOTE]
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Hickman weirdness. he also grew to kaiju size at one point. the former was caused by incursion-related radiation exposure. I'm guessing that neither ability exists; post Secret Wars.
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[QUOTE=DragonsChi;3447530]To actually become Iron Fist you have to be raised and be trained in Kun Lun by a Thunder from childhood. A person who becomes Iron Fist would also have to be willing to be Kun Luns "sworn protector", which may not be a problem for Shang. Either way Shang would need to have a recon that basically took him back to square one for it to work just based off the rules of Kun Lun. I wonder how his fan base would handle that?
It would be cool if Shang still had his duplication powers from Hickmans run on Avengers though.[/QUOTE]
I think Shang could claim it by just punching a dragon in the heart, really. or he could kill the current Iron Fist. that was Junzo Muto's plan. being Kunlun's protector was a problem for Danny, originally. he was content to hang out in New York with Luke Cage.
Seriously about this, Shang is the better martial artist. I doubt that's up for debate. However for a character, Shang's come from his father's raising him and has turned against him working for MI-5 (or 6). the whole Doug Moench games of death and deceit was part of his growth. He left his family and found a new way in which he's learning to deal with. that works.
Danny lost his family and was raised in K'un L'un. He grew into that life and made his way there. His history is privileged white boy grows up in Asian mystery city and he gains abilities and a power. White savior big time, but he, like Shang was put into a different life and had to grow into it.
There are reasons Danny's Fist and Shang is MOKF. If all you want to boil these characters down to is who can win a fight, you're losing so much that's been built up over the years.
To even be able to face the Shao-Loa the dragon you have to be approved by the elders of Kun Lun and the Yu-ti. They only approve those who are citizens of Kun Lun.
If Shang-Chi became evil and mastered his chi he could take it from Danny though. Since Davos has done that. However, it wouldn't make him Iron Fist, he would just have the powers of an Iron Fist. The mantel of Iron Fist is something given by the Yu-ti and Kun Lun citizens after a warrior of Kun Lun beats the Shao.
[QUOTE=CaptCleghorn;3447788]
Danny lost his family and was raised in K'un L'un. He grew into that life and made his way there. His history is privileged white boy grows up in Asian mystery city and he gains abilities and a power. White savior big time, but he, like Shang was put into a different life and had to grow into it.
[/QUOTE]
Danny lost both is parents at 9 years old and was raised as pretty much a peasant in Kun Lun, where he was ridiculed for not being a "real" member of Kun Lun due to being white. He would then spend everyday of his life being yelled at and being put through intense physical and martial arts training for another 10 years before he faced Shao-Loa. He's not exactly all that privileged.
At least not until he left Kun Lun.
[QUOTE=DragonsChi;3447789]To even be able to face the Shao-Loa the dragon you have to be approved by the elders of Kun Lun and the Yu-ti. They only approve those who are citizens of Kun Lun.
[/QUOTE]
I thought that was all a sham.
[QUOTE=Michael Watkins;3447792]I thought that was all a sham.[/QUOTE]
No, Yu-ti and the elders still approve who goes into the trial of the Iron Fist.
What your referring to I believe is the battle of the "One" in the trial that was recon to be a robot by Kaaree, that supposedly allowed Danny to win. However, that was recon back out by the Great Ed Brison, one of the best Iron Fist writers ever, to not be the case.
It’s a slightly odd question. Um, I guess. Certain characters are supposed to have greater natural ability than others. I suppose that Bullseye is naturally a better marksman than Frank Castle, for example, and would probably make a [I]better[/I], or at least more murderous, vigilante (putting issues of personal psychology and motivations to one side). But ultimately Danny Rand has the 1930s vibe of young-Westerner-trained-by-secret-esoteric-order story, to put him in the tradition of the Shadow and other pulp heroes. That, I guess, is the point, or one of the points, of the character, rather than because he’s better at that martial arts thang. It’s an archaic story type, to be sure, but these are comics.
As to whether Shang-Chi might have been a better choice for a Netflix show or might have been a better choice for the Defenders, I couldn’t say, because I haven’t watched either :) I understand obviously that the Iron Fist show received a fair amount of critical ridicule at the time. But whether that’s because of the innate merits of the character or the adaptation I couldn’t say.
Absolutely! Shang chi is a great character but unfortunately iron fist has a greater mythology. If Shang was the iron fist marvel would be raking it in
Nope, you'd just be swapping white saviour trope for Asians are all super martial artists trope.
Better to stick with what's there and established, then swap to appease one set of people and yet piss off another at the same time.
Asian people need more representation, but they also need to have their stereotypes cast off. And Shang = Fist would be a massive stereotype and people should feel bad for thinking it, as they're only thinking it works because of a raving and exploitative Hollywood stereotype.
No.
Shang Chi has had his own mission in the comics which is dismantling his immortal father's criminal empire. [B]Shang Chi is Bruce Lee from Enter The Dragon mixed with Jason Bourne. [/B]
[B]
Shang Chi's thing is martial arts espionage stories with some Asian mysticism/fantasy in the mix. [/B]Shang Chi fighting his various siblings, rogue spies like Maximillian Zaran and his father's assassins sent to kill him.
Shang Chi doesn't need the power of the Iron Fist. Chi's natural abilities have been shown to rival that of Iron Fists at times.
Shang Chi doesn't have a connection to K'un-L'un and has no real reason to want to become the champion of K'un-L'un. I'm not interested in seeing Shang Chi fighting street level crime again.
[QUOTE=protege;3447612]For whatever reason, marvel can no longer use the fu manchu angle, so you might as well completly reboot him. [/QUOTE]
Marvel have been using the name Zheng Zu instead of Fu Manchu for a while now. Zheng Zu is said to be his real name while names like Fu Manchu and Han have been alias.
They have already sort of semi rebooted him. The character still fits the mystical immortal criminal template that Fu Manchu set without the dated racial caricature elements. Fu Manchu was also a inspiration for Batman villain Ra's Al Ghul.
Quite an intriguing notion. For me, I approach the topic a number of different ways.
[B]Are we talking about martial arts skills?[/B] If that's the case, then Shang ever so slightly takes the lead. I've said before on a number of occasions that the iron fist is what gives Danny an advantage over Shang. If a fight occurred b/w the two based solely on skill, Shang could win. In the latest Iron Fist series, Danny concedes this idea:
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Thus, Shang as the Iron Fist would be incredibly skilled and a potentially better fighter than Danny.
[B]Are we talking about story potential?[/B] If that's the case, then having Shang as Iron Fist would present a huge number of really interesting stories. As Chamber Music mentioned, Shang-Chi's mythos has elements of espionage and Asian mysticism. Still, I feel that Zheng Zu, his army of assassins, and MI-6 would fit perfectly with K'un Lun, Liu-Shi, the Capital Cities of Heaven, and the Immortal Weapons. Honestly, I feel that these elements should have crossed paths before (I'm thinking that Zheng Zu had to have tried to takeover K'un Lun in the past. A possible story in the future? But I digress). Having Shang as Iron Fist would bring them together.
Ultimately, for me, the decision comes down to [B]character[/B] and for me Danny wins it here. Shang is a serious character. (Indeed, I tend to think that he's portrayed as being TOO serious, almost Spock-like. Writers, c'mon, the guy can can smile, be down to earth, and crack a joke! Add more dimensions to this guy!) Shang's past is pretty complex, having to be an MI-6 agent and deal with his father. But he always treats the situation seriously. Danny, on the other hand, seems to be have more layers to him as a character. In one sense, he can be very aloof and goofy. During the Brubaker/Faction run, he had a very "....wait, what?" type of mentality. We got to see Danny exhibit this quality even more as he played the funny uncle role in the "Iron Fists" title when he was mentoring Pei. At the same time, he can be very serious. He has had to deal with a lot of pain and rage over the death of his parents. He has issues with identity, not fully belonging in either New York or K'un Lun. Obligations and responsibility haunt him, as he is supposed to be the defender of K'un Lun, which as of late, has undergone tremendous upheaval and destruction.
These are very potent character elements and because of that, I feel that Danny edges out Shang here.
At the end of the day, while Shang could be a great Iron Fist, I still feel that Danny and Shang are great as they are currently are.
[QUOTE=Tiamatty;3447726]Turning Shang Chi into Iron Fist would mean he would no longer be Shang Chi. The specific factors that made him Shang Chi would no longer apply if he was Iron Fist. His father, of course, but also his scorn for "games of deceit and death."
[B]I'd much rather they bring Pei back and do more with her. Because Pei is [I]the goddamn best[/I].
[/B]
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Definitely agree with you there. Keeping the iron fists crossed and hoping that Pei will be seen in the future!
Not he did say PROBABLY Tien Long. LOL ;)
So far both of them have been pretty even with or without the Iron Fist. With every match they have had so far ending in a stalemate.
[QUOTE=legion_quest;3448162]Nope, you'd just be swapping white saviour trope for Asians are all super martial artists trope.
Better to stick with what's there and established, then swap to appease one set of people and yet piss off another at the same time.
Asian people need more representation, but they also need to have their stereotypes cast off. And Shang = Fist would be a massive stereotype and people should feel bad for thinking it, as they're only thinking it works because of a raving and exploitative Hollywood stereotype.[/QUOTE]
That's a really weak excuse. Anyone without powers in the marvel universe better be able to fight or build themselves an iron man armor. But if they do build it, you'll probably dismiss it as a smart Asian trope. Shang has more than one side. And this thread rolled directly out of the "would rogue make a better captain marvel thread."
If that is the case you could have stage the premise of the thread better...
Something like " If Shang-Chi had arrived in K'un L'un at the same time as Danny Rand, who would be Iron Fist".
Right now the thread is based off the premise of the characters already established history giving it a slant in the only direction it really could go.
I would still choose Danny but at least the thread would have been more thought provoking.
Friendly Advise for next time. :):D;)