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[QUOTE=Ra-El;4984762]For what I understand, Moira, Xavier, Magneto, Apocalypse and Sinister were ALL working with each other since the begining right? Everything was parte do their plan?
So is all orchestrated by tem, even AvX. Sinister found Scott when he was a kid, messed with his head, Xavier rescued him, indocrinated a teenager with his dreams at the same time turno him into a soldier since he was 16 years old. Then he had contacto with Magneto and his more radical position. Years later, after several losses of loved ones, caused by the violent life Xavier imposed on him, he was merged with the conscious of a ancient psycopath who basically tortured Scott for months.
I mean, dos the Shiar abducting his parente really a random evento, ir was it caused by Xavier through his lover? What about M-Day, Magneto mentally abusing Wanda all those years caused it, did he knew?
All the events that led into AvX were caused by a group of people that have knowlodge ofnpossibles futures and used it to manipulate people and events and achieve a goal, Krakoa nation.
Scott and Wanda aren't guilt.[/QUOTE]
Moira, Xavier and Magneto were working together from the beginning. Sinister was brought in circa X-men #1(1991) and Apocalypse seems like a recent recruit. They did not orchestrate any of these events. Thats way too much thats simply out of their control. Thats a stretch to blame Wanda and Scott's actions on them
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[QUOTE=houndsofluv;4984290]yes exactlyyy ! [B]no wonder she doesn't fw any of these people anymore[/B] they did her so dirty. obviously this is a touchy subject and no one checked up on her, offered an ounce of empathy or considered why hm maybe pulling up to Utopia w/ fighting words is grossly insensitive. but I digress[/QUOTE]
lol tooo right! lIke how you gonna squad up on my cousins WITHOUT saying sh!t to me first and expect me to stand there while you rile up your boys??:confused:
[QUOTE=Ichijinijisanji;4984347]Is breaking up nukes and other weaponry and imposing [B]peace with an ultimatum[/B] moral? Like genuine question.[B] It seems like it reduces harm significantly[/B], but you've also effectively subjugated the world.
I guess it depends on your odds of being on the receiving end of said nukes and weaponry. [B]Is this not what religion is? or Law&Order[/B]? Everything would be copacetic for you as long as you follow these rules/guidelines? [B]I'm not sure how it wouldn't reduce the threat of harm[/B]...It def didnt increase it. How much of a difference did MOST people see when the P5 took over....besides those who wanted to eat could etc...
trained her better than cyclops could though. Using wanda was necessary.
[B][B]Cyclops just didn't present a compelling argument that he'd be able to train hope and didn't really show any ways he could to the reader[/B][/B]. Like atleast talk to rachel instead of making her your inside agent
I mean if you'd ask the average reader who could handle the Phoenix Force better The team who has Never encountered it, Orrrr the team who's had more than of their members weld the PF.
Just seems like an obvious answer TO ME...TO ME.....but had to ask.
[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Tycon;4984365]
[B]Like Storm is smart, she knew what was up. That sort of meeting was only going one way with a skewed perception of the Phoenix and any dissenting opinions being been shouted down. If Rachel, the most in-control host of the Phoenix, explaining to them that Phoenix is more than death and destruction didn’t help, anything Storm said wouldn’t have mattered at all.[/B][/QUOTE]
YEs Yes This. lol Like if common sense aint workin.....
[QUOTE=Havok83;4984709]And Storm could have offered her opinion. She had no clue what Steve's interpretation of the Phoenix was bc she didnt stay long enough to hear him out. She didnt even know he talked to Logan. She literally learned nothing and bounced before she could collect any intel. Steve would have told her as that was the point of the meeting[/QUOTE]
She's seen a lynch mob or 2 in her life.
[QUOTE=Ra-El;4984762]For what I understand, Moira, Xavier, Magneto, Apocalypse and Sinister were ALL working with each other since the begining right? Everything was part of their plan?
So is all orchestrated by them, even AvX. Sinister found Scott when he was a kid, messed with his head, Xavier rescued him, indocrinated a teenager with his dreams at the same time turned him into a soldier since he was 16 years old. Then he had contact with Magneto and his more radical position. Years later, after several losses of loved ones, caused by the violent life Xavier imposed on him, he was merged with the conscious of a ancient psycopath who basically tortured Scott for months.
I mean, the Shiar abducting his parents is really a random event, or was it caused by Xavier through his lover? What about M-Day, Magneto mentally abusing Wanda all those years caused it, did he knew?
All the events that led into AvX were caused by a group of people that have knowledge of possibles futures and used it to manipulate people and events and achieve a specific goal, Krakoa nation.
Scott and Wanda aren't guilt, but victms.[/QUOTE]I mean you have Gods and Goddesses regularly put up their offspring as a sacrifice for the greater good.
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[QUOTE=Ra-El;4984762]For what I understand, Moira, Xavier, Magneto, Apocalypse and Sinister were ALL working with each other since the begining right? Everything was part of their plan?
So is all orchestrated by them, even AvX. Sinister found Scott when he was a kid, messed with his head, Xavier rescued him, indocrinated a teenager with his dreams at the same time turned him into a soldier since he was 16 years old. Then he had contact with Magneto and his more radical position. Years later, after several losses of loved ones, caused by the violent life Xavier imposed on him, he was merged with the conscious of a ancient psycopath who basically tortured Scott for months.
I mean, the Shiar abducting his parents is really a random event, or was it caused by Xavier through his lover? What about M-Day, Magneto mentally abusing Wanda all those years caused it, did he knew?
All the events that led into AvX were caused by a group of people that have knowlodge of possibles futures and used it to manipulate people and events and achieve a specific goal, Krakoa nation.
Scott and Wanda aren't guilt, but victms.[/QUOTE]
I think that they orchestrated a lot (like Legion and Proteus), but there were some drawbacks that they didn't plan for and that forced them to wait until now to create Krakoa. Like both Legion and Proteus being unstable, Onslaught, the Legacy Virus, Genosha and M'Day were definitely not part of the plan (especially the last 2, since they were regarded as great crimes of humanity that need fixing through The Five now).
And I'm not sure if Apocalypse knows about Moira, since Moira said that Apocalypse in this Life was still too unstable to be trusted.
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[QUOTE=Veitha;4984957]I think that they orchestrated a lot (like Legion and Proteus), but there were some drawbacks that they didn't plan for and that forced them to wait until now to create Krakoa. Like both Legion and Proteus being unstable, Onslaught, the Legacy Virus, Genosha and M'Day were definitely not part of the plan (especially the last 2, since they were regarded as great crimes of humanity that need fixing through The Five now).
And I'm not sure if Apocalypse knows about Moira, since Moira said that Apocalypse in this Life was still too unstable to be trusted.[/QUOTE]
You may be assuming too much. It’s possible that Moira felt she needed Genosha and M-Day to happen in order to get everyone on board for Krakoa
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[QUOTE=ARkadelphia;4984971]You may be assuming too much. It’s possible that Moira felt she needed Genosha and M-Day to happen in order to get everyone on board for Krakoa[/QUOTE]
But how would they be helpful? Both Genosha and M'Day essentially clogged the Resurrection pipelines and set back the current status of mutantdom of years.
Only thing I can think of is having Hope, Tempus and Goldballs since they were post M'Day mutants, but mutations are kinda random so there's no saying what can manifest and there's other ways of getting the desidered mutations (like they knew they could get reality warpers by mixing their DNA with a specific person). So I don't think that'd be a good enough reason to let Genosha and M'Day happen. The risk was literally too high since after both events mutants were literally almost extinct, which is what they're trying to avoid.
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[QUOTE=LP22;4981592]I don't understand how Scarlet Witch (who killed a lot of mutants with her NO MORE MUTANTS phrase) is forgiven while Cyclops (who tried to save his kind) wasn't.[/QUOTE]
Forgiven by whom?
[QUOTE=LP22;4981592]She got to become an Avenger again. Havok even forgave her by being on the same team as her and he told young Cyclops that his older self is wrong. It's weird.[/QUOTE]
Forgiven by the Avengers then? She wasn't for a long time, until it turned out she was possessed by the Life Force during Disassembled and HoM, her former teammates realizing her actions weren't her own.
Cyclops went through the same things, except he, countrary to Wanda, was fully aware of the threat the Phoenix posed beforehand.
He didn't have the same leniency from the Avengers as a result, or from his own former teammates.
[QUOTE=LP22;4981592]Her excuse was it wasn't her and that's OKAY...[/QUOTE]
Exactly. It wasn't her. She had no knowledge of the Life Force beforehand, and no idea how Dangerous it was. If she had, she wouldn't have thrown in with Doom.
[QUOTE=LP22;4981592]but when Cyclops said it wasn't him it's not.[/QUOTE]
Cyclops knew the danger of the Phoenix first hand. Furthermore, he knew the Phoenix was destroying inhabited worlds on its path to Earth, Killing billions in the process.
[QUOTE=LP22;4981592]And to put the cherry on the top in the end for all the sacrifices scott made marvel still made him say he was wrong [/QUOTE]
He was.
[QUOTE=LP22;4981592]while Wanda was instantly forgiven [/QUOTE]
She wasn't.
[QUOTE=LP22;4981592]god I hope one day she will be brought to Justice for her crimes against mutantkind.[/QUOTE]
Krakoa's justice system is currently a joke, it would be embarassing imo, but we'll see.
And tbh, if mutantkind wanted to get real on that M-Day front, they would have stormed Latveria to jail Doom a long time ago...
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[QUOTE=Havok83;4984709]And Storm could have offered her opinion. She had no clue what Steve's interpretation of the Phoenix was bc she didnt stay long enough to hear him out. She didnt even know he talked to Logan. She literally learned nothing and bounced before she could collect any intel. Steve would have told her as that was the point of the meeting[/QUOTE]
But she didn’t just bounce for no reason. That’s why I said it was apparent that this was a call to war meeting, otherwise she would have no reason to just take off. Everyone (except BP) understood why she left too.
[QUOTE=People Of The Earth;4984986]He was.[/QUOTE]
About what?
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[QUOTE=Tycon;4984991]About what?[/QUOTE]
About gambling the lives of everyone on Earth with the Phoenix.
[IMG]https://i.imgur.com/snIAr1t.jpg[/IMG]
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[QUOTE=People Of The Earth;4985047]About gambling the lives of everyone on Earth with the Phoenix.[/QUOTE]
You must admit that it's the kind of decision that super-heroes make a lot: life-death decisions that concern everyone on Earth without consulting everyone on Earth.
The difference is that the mutants can be accused of being partial and seeing only mutants' interests.
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[QUOTE=Havok83;4984709]And Storm could have offered her opinion. She had no clue what Steve's interpretation of the Phoenix was bc she didnt stay long enough to hear him out. She didnt even know he talked to Logan. She literally learned nothing and bounced before she could collect any intel. Steve would have told her as that was the point of the meeting[/QUOTE]
Storm had no guarantee that the Avengers would allow her to inform Utopia that they were going to invade them. They could have kidnapped / detained her.
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[QUOTE=Ra-El;4984762]For what I understand, Moira, Xavier, Magneto, Apocalypse and Sinister were ALL working with each other since the begining right? Everything was part of their plan?
So is all orchestrated by them, even AvX. Sinister found Scott when he was a kid, messed with his head, Xavier rescued him, indocrinated a teenager with his dreams at the same time turned him into a soldier since he was 16 years old. Then he had contact with Magneto and his more radical position. Years later, after several losses of loved ones, caused by the violent life Xavier imposed on him, he was merged with the conscious of a ancient psycopath who basically tortured Scott for months.
I mean, the Shiar abducting his parents is really a random event, or was it caused by Xavier through his lover? What about M-Day, Magneto mentally abusing Wanda all those years caused it, did he knew?
All the events that led into AvX were caused by a group of people that have knowlodge of possibles futures and used it to manipulate people and events and achieve a specific goal, Krakoa nation.
Scott and Wanda aren't guilt, but victms.[/QUOTE]
The lives moira went through aren't a certainty just a template. Unpredictable bad things happening are a part of it but i can't imagine they're planned for
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[QUOTE=BroHomo;4984911]Is this not what religion is? or Law&Order? Everything would be copacetic for you as long as you follow these rules/guidelines? I'm not sure how it wouldn't reduce the threat of harm...It def didnt increase it. How much of a difference did MOST people see when the P5 took over....besides those who wanted to eat could etc...[/QUOTE]
Imposed religion is considered barbaric and people should have the freedom to leave their religion. Laws should be able to be changed based on public support and democracy either direct or indirect through elected representatives.
[QUOTE=FluffyCyclopsRLZ;4984638]It really depends on how one feels about Western world leaders/tycoons whining about the diminishing market value of their privilege, really. If preservation of aforementioned privilege is more important than the lives/security/dignity of folks living in authoritarian/hybrid regimes, then, yeah, Pax Utopia was suuuper unethical. Otherwise, not really.[/QUOTE]
It wasn't just the western world, they went to the UN and imposed their law on everyone with an ultimatum without any form of democracy
It wasn't even like how current krakoa has a give and take thing going on: Accept these benefits for a price to recognize krakoa law.
This isn't even going in to how the phoenix 5 were clearly unstable, and their takeover of the world would certainly lead to people attacking them regardless of the avengers. Scott had already shown signs of corruption when he denied hope the power of the phoenix despite saying earlier it was for her and she would spark the return of mutants losing sight of his goal
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[QUOTE=Zelena;4985052]You must admit that it's the kind of decision that super-heroes make a lot: life-death decisions that concern everyone on Earth without consulting everyone on Earth.
The difference is that the mutants can be accused of being partial and seeing only mutants' interests.[/QUOTE]
Normally the heroes are considered reactive and that's their expected role when it comes to saving the world. They don't bet things on a sacrifice or greater good beyond their personal lives.
The illuminati was departure from this where they were far more proactive.
For example, scott also imprisoned illyana for using them like that to fight the elder gods with a bomb strapped to her.
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[QUOTE=Glio;4985067]Storm had no guarantee that the Avengers would allow her to inform Utopia that they were going to invade them. They could have kidnapped / detained her.[/QUOTE]
She didnt know they were going to invade Utopia
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[QUOTE=Zelena;4985052]You must admit that it's the kind of decision that super-heroes make a lot: life-death decisions that concern everyone on Earth without consulting everyone on Earth.
The difference is that the mutants can be accused of being partial and seeing only mutants' interests.[/QUOTE]
Oh, mutants are absolutely entitled to be partial to themselves.
Everyone is - ultimately it is a choice people can make.
The problem here was that the X-Men are supposed to transcend those limitations between mutants and sapiens. They are supposed to care for the well-being of [I]everyone[/I], not just of mutantkind.
AvX is a Failure in that regard, as Scott admitted on that page.
Scott becoming an hardliner/revolutionary would have never been this much of an issue if he had done so AFTER quitting the X-Men, rather than dragging the team into that direction while leading it.
[I]"I Believe we should care for our people first and foremost before the rest of the world.
That's why I'm leaving the X-Men effective immediately, to do exactly that: care for our people first and foremost. You guys keep the world safe, I will keep mutantkind safe. Anyone who feels the same is welcome to join me."[/I]
Bendis tried and failed to do that with his revolutionnary Scott: his team should have called itself the new Brotherhood or Something, rather than keep referring themselves as the X-Men.