What if Wallace West/new 52 Kid Flash/ Black Wally West was from another earth ?

[QUOTE=Modamy;4640695]But Wallace isn't competing against those characters he's competing alongside them. He's [B]Kid Flash[/B]; he's Barry's partner. He'll be built up alongside Barry and if the day comes that he could potentially hold a solo title it'll be after developing and building a fanbase within the main Flash book.[/QUOTE]

Ergo this character will be nothing more than a support character to the main character. Thereby, serving only to service that character.

Therefore implying that the multitude of white characters with the same powers not only could have replaced him but hold a higher status because they are off doing their own thing and building their own names.

Yet fans are the racist ones for going "WTF" ?

[QUOTE=DragonsChi;4640700]Ergo this character will be nothing more than a support character to the main character. Thereby, serving only to service that character.

Therefore implying that the multitude of white characters with the same powers not only could have replaced him but hold a higher status because they are off doing their own thing and building their own names.

Yet fans are the racist ones for going "WTF" ?[/QUOTE]

If it ever came across as me calling fan racist that wasn't my intention, so firstly I apologize, but every character other than the main character is a supporting one. In the modern Flash book Barry is the main character so Wallace, Iris, and even Wally are supporting characters. I don't see it as some kind of racial hierarchy but as just how characters are utilized in a story.Jay and Wally may be [B]The Flash[/B], but Barry's the guy with a successful ongoing title right now. There could also totally be arcs where Wallace serves as a main character alongside Barry and there have been since he's become Kid Flash. He just needs more of them since he was pretty vanilla from the start and so long as he does get to the point where he can stand on his own what does it matter if he's only a supporting character for now?

Okay, disclaimer:

I'm saying this as 1) a life-long, middle aged Flash fan, 2) a [B]pretty vocal [/B]Wally West fan and 3) a black man (by USA standards at least), so everything I say here is colored by these 3 things.

Wallace as Kid Flash is [B]fine[/B]. Wallace as Wally's cousin is [B]fine[/B]. Wallace being from the main Earth and a member of the Flash family having equal footing to the others is more than okay. We don't need to change his identity, his heroic alias or the core of his origin (Iris nephew, Wally's cousin, etc), make him from a different Earth or anything like tat. Changing his name could serve a function, but Flash people with the same name are a staple at this point and it's also not a big deal.

That said, he [B]does[/B] need a retconned origin. First, because it doesn't fit continuity anymore (well, nothing really does, but we an hope)Because when he made his debut, I was really prepared to be offended as a Wally fan (and I was) but I was [B]really[/B] offended as a black person.

Because this...

[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/dN4ny07.jpeg[/IMG]


.... this is fucking disgusting. That grown ass blonde cop giving an arm-lock to an unarmed 12 year old black is as much "Barry Allen" to me as that thing we saw in HiC is Wally West.

This is not this kids uncle, this is not his mentor. This is a ************ that should be in jail for child-abuse and police brutality and I will [B]never[/B] accept that any kind of meaningful relationship should develop between those two, and I sure as hell don't want that **** normalized in my comics.

So yeah, keep Wallace's name, keep his status, hell, give him a promotion within the DCU if that's the case. But the origin, as it was, has to go.

[QUOTE=Modamy;4640721]If it ever came across as me calling fan racist that wasn't my intention, so firstly I apologize, but every character other than the main character is a supporting one. In the modern Flash book Barry is the main character so Wallace, Iris, and even Wally are supporting characters. I don't see it as some kind of racial hierarchy but as just how characters are utilized in a story.Jay and Wally may be [B]The Flash[/B], but Barry's the guy with a successful ongoing title right now. There could also totally be arcs where Wallace serves as a main character alongside Barry and there have been since he's become Kid Flash. He just needs more of them since he was pretty vanilla from the start and so long as he does get to the point where he can stand on his own what does it matter if he's only a supporting character for now?[/QUOTE]

You can not have a proper discussion about Wallace without talking about Race or Racism. Dan Didio did that by blatantly changing a Popular character's race from one color to another. So you have nothing to apologize for but you also can not think that this conversation can skate by Race or Racism. Because by purely changing the color the character is now FORCED to justify his existence and place in the franchise for reasons outside of his RACE. If he does not then it's a TOKEN character meant to serve undesirable intentions and motivations.

That's just the short and sweet facts of it. Sorry.

As to your accretion that all the characters are supporting characters you are still incorrect. Wally West is a MAIN CHARACTER who sometimes appears in Barry's story. Twenty to Twenty-Five years of solo time and character development in his own series stapled into being. Impulse is a MAIN CHARACTER since he too has had his own solo series and stared in a team title with him being a MAJOR MAIN CHARACTER.

Wallace is support currently. Support who was created with the intentions of keeping him as support to not surpass Barry. Created with the added intention of changing his RACE so no one could in "Good Faith" buck at without initially seeming like a terrible person.

So in the same vein of not being able to have a discussion about Wallace without addressing his RACE and RACISM, the character has the added baggage of not being able to get around the nature of him existing outside of propping up a white character.

As much as I have grown to hate the term "problematic" Wallace whole situation stinks of it. Character Development alone is not going to fix it. As much as I am and advocate of CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT, facts are facts. And as much as people like to think we have grown as a society, human core nature remains the same and follows the same patterns as it always does.

I think we can all agree this was a pretty god awful way to introduce a character in a push for diversity.

[QUOTE=Modamy;4640754]I think we can all agree this was a pretty god awful way to introduce a character in a push for diversity.[/QUOTE]


Yes.


It should have never happened. And if it were too happen the character, Wallace, should of had a substantial visible surface trait (ie power or ability) that would drastically separate him from not only other member of the Flash family but of accusations of true Racism/Prejudice.

Anyone, who has actually experience Prejudice/Racism will tell you that a true indicator of it (Prejudice/Racism) is something being presented to you that questions your intellect or capabilities of forming your own thought. Wallace does that with the add bonus of smacking you in the face for your correct opinion.

[QUOTE=DragonsChi;4640750]You can not have a proper discussion about Wallace without talking about Race or Racism. Dan Didio did that by blatantly changing a Popular character's race from one color to another. So you have nothing to apologize for but you also can not think that this conversation can skate by Race or Racism. Because by purely changing the color the character is now FORCED to justify his existence and place in the franchise for reasons outside of his RACE. If he does not then it's a TOKEN character meant to serve undesirable intentions and motivations. [/QUOTE]

I've already stated that I know Wallace was made in bad faith, but this a conversation about how to improve the character going forward not obsess over his creation.


[QUOTE]As to your accretion that all the characters are supporting characters you are still incorrect. Wally West is a MAIN CHARACTER who sometimes appears in Barry's story. Twenty to Twenty-Five years of solo time and character development in his own series stapled into being. Impulse is a MAIN CHARACTER since he too has had his own solo series and stared in a team title with him being a MAJOR MAIN CHARACTER. [/QUOTE]

What determines whether or not a character is a main character has nothing to do with whether or not they previously or currently hold solo title, but who the main character(s) of the book they are currently in and the context of the story currently being told. The current main Flash book features Barry as the main character, therefore everyone other than Barry, unless the context of the current story has elevated them to such, is a supporting character. For example; In the "Running Scared" story Iris is a main character and in "Speed of Darkness" Wallace is a main character.

[QUOTE]Wallace is support currently. Support who was created with the intentions of keeping him as support to not surpass Barry. Created with the added intention of changing his RACE so no one could in "Good Faith" buck at without initially seeming like a terrible person.

So in the same vein of not being able to have a discussion about Wallace without addressing his RACE and RACISM, the character has the added baggage of not being able to get around the nature of him existing outside of propping up a white character. [/QUOTE]

Maybe so, but just because a character was created with certain intentions doesn't mean he can't grow beyond that. Wally was not created to become the third Flash and take over for Barry, but he did and now a lot of people love the character. Given how quickly he was given a solo title Bart may have been made to hold a solo title, but he still got his start as a supporting cast member in the Flash to establish himself. I won't address anything about Wallace's race because that's not the conversation I'm trying to have.

[QUOTE]As much as I have grown to hate the term "problematic" Wallace whole situation stinks of it. Character Development alone is not going to fix it. As much as I am and advocate of CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT, facts are facts. And as much as people like to think we have grown as a society, human core nature remains the same and follows the same patterns as it always does.[/QUOTE]

I have never stated anything about the growth of society in this discussion. I am talking about what Wallace needs to improve as a character.

[QUOTE=Modamy;4640811]I've already stated that I know Wallace was made in bad faith, but this a conversation about how to improve the character going forward not obsess over his creation.[/quote]

Right, and that is basically a statement that you suggestion/solution is not and will not be good enough

[quote]
What determines whether or not a character is a main character has nothing to do with whether or not they previously or currently hold solo title, but who the main character(s) of the book they are currently in and the context of the story currently being told. The current main Flash book features Barry as the main character, therefore everyone other than Barry, unless the context of the current story has elevated them to such, is a supporting character. For example; In the "Running Scared" story Iris is a main character and in "Speed of Darkness" Wallace is a main character.[/quote]
False.

What you are stating is only half the truth. In the current conversation its a matter of stating who is an ACTUAL character and/or HEADLINER and who is a minor character serving as a PROMP to help the main character move the story along. Wally West has the ability to be an actual character who also can appear in other titles to help move the story but who existence extends further than that.

To relate this to musical performs if Jay-Z and Beyonce are two "acts" that come together create a better performance but neither needs the other to make sells, bring in crowds, or to support themselves. Better together fine without. Wallace on the other hand...is Destiny's Child waiting patiently in the conner to sing "Say My Name" and "Bootylicious" before being shooed back in the corner from which he came.

Which is a problem since we have a character created just for that purpose, when other were available, with the idea of changing him BLACK be the justifier for it being OK.

[quote]
Maybe so, but just because a character was created with certain intentions doesn't mean he can't grow beyond that. Wally was not created to become the third Flash and take over for Barry, but he did and now a lot of people love the character. Given how quickly he was given a solo title Bart may have been made to hold a solo title, but he still got his start as a supporting cast member in the Flash to establish himself. I won't address anything about Wallace's race because that's not the conversation I'm trying to have.[/quote]

Again, you cannot talk about Wallace in good FAITH without addressing his RACE in this conversation because the CREATOR IN CHIEF at DC created the character around his RACE. His whole purpose for existing is his RACE.

Yes, characters can grow. Yes, things can change to some degree for the better. However, BLACK FLASH will probably never get any real traction because of all the other baggage that comes with him and the fact that he is in direct competition with at least FIVE other characters who not only can do what he can do but have more history and fans.

You want to have an honest discussion on what can be done to make the character better? Then start addressing things that can be done that gives the character more meaning then being BLACK/NON-WHITE Flash.

I suggested POWERS. What other things can be done to grab a reader VISUALLY, since this is a VISUAL MEDIUM, that will bring in readers for this character right away?

Look we can do this all day and tomorrow, but obviously I can't change your pessimistic and superficial views on characters or the fact that you don't understand what a main and supporting character are. So I'm done.

[QUOTE=BohemiaDrinker;4640743]Okay, disclaimer:

I'm saying this as 1) a life-long, middle aged Flash fan, 2) a [B]pretty vocal [/B]Wally West fan and 3) a black man (by USA standards at least), so everything I say here is colored by these 3 things.

Wallace as Kid Flash is [B]fine[/B]. Wallace as Wally's cousin is [B]fine[/B]. Wallace being from the main Earth and a member of the Flash family having equal footing to the others is more than okay. We don't need to change his identity, his heroic alias or the core of his origin (Iris nephew, Wally's cousin, etc), make him from a different Earth or anything like tat. Changing his name could serve a function, but Flash people with the same name are a staple at this point and it's also not a big deal.

That said, he [B]does[/B] need a retconned origin. First, because it doesn't fit continuity anymore (well, nothing really does, but we an hope)Because when he made his debut, I was really prepared to be offended as a Wally fan (and I was) but I was [B]really[/B] offended as a black person.

Because this...

[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/dN4ny07.jpeg[/IMG]


.... this is fucking disgusting. That grown ass blonde cop giving an arm-lock to an unarmed 12 year old black is as much "Barry Allen" to me as that thing we saw in HiC is Wally West.

This is not this kids uncle, this is not his mentor. This is a ************ that should be in jail for child-abuse and police brutality and I will [B]never[/B] accept that any kind of meaningful relationship should develop between those two, and I sure as hell don't want that **** normalized in my comics.

So yeah, keep Wallace's name, keep his status, hell, give him a promotion within the DCU if that's the case. But the origin, as it was, has to go.[/QUOTE]

I forgot how bad that was, how can you write that in modern times and think that's ok? I'm so glad his character has moved on from that.

[QUOTE=BohemiaDrinker;4640743]Okay, disclaimer:

So yeah, keep Wallace's name, keep his status, hell, give him a promotion within the DCU if that's the case. But the origin, as it was, has to go.[/QUOTE]

And take out the White savior mess that we saw in that book as well.
Along with making sure you redo how he met Damian in Teen Titans Rebirth too.

In the Rebirth preview book (I have to find my copy) they had a written preview of the Teen Titans using Damian's voice. He pretty much referred to Wallace as his bitch.
Something to the point of "make him do what I want." What does that sound to yall?

Then for those who did NOT see Teen Titans Rebirth issue-something was done with Wallace. A robbery happened. Store owner comes out as the police comes out. Store owner SINGLES out Wallace and points at him. Mind you all-the robbery who runs past him as everyone comes out is WHITE-he looks like the real Wally. They are not even dressed the same.


[QUOTE]Which is why I'll keep screaming at the clouds all he needs are good stories focused on him and actual character development.[/QUOTE]

So who is going to do these good stories with Wallace?

And who on the EDITORIAL stuff will approve those stories?
Ask editorial to explain why in Aquaman's book-we see Aqualad for the first time at a police station? Whose writer is a BIGGER name thanks to someone named Carol Danvers.
Ask them why Doomsday Clock makes no mention of Jason Rsuch-who was Firestorm with Ronnie FIRST according to New 52.
Ask them why the one guy who wrote John Stewart well is no longer at DC. In fact ask them why all guys who can do that are NOT at DC like Rodney Barnes. Who has done it 4 times at Marvel.

[QUOTE]I forgot how bad that was, [B]how can you write that in modern times and think that's ok?[/B] I'm so glad his character has moved on from that.[/QUOTE]

When you write it in a book that can survive the backlash.

Cyborg's book could NOT do that and live to see another issue.

[QUOTE=Modamy;4640898]Look we can do this all day and tomorrow, but obviously I can't change your pessimistic and superficial views on characters or the fact that you don't understand what a main and supporting character are. So I'm done.[/QUOTE]

Nah, you just don't want address the nastiness of the situation. Which is typical of genuinely well meaning white people, due to the nature of it tends to force them to take a hard look at themselves.

I also have a very solid understanding of literature thanks to my schooling, not to say schooling makes one better then another, but based on your ill conceived lay out of main and supporting characters it at least places me a a few legs a head of you until proven otherwise.

However, thank you for the conversation all the same.

It's confusing that they call N52 Wally, Wallace. Raven always called OG Wally, Wallace.

[QUOTE=DragonsChi;4640951]Nah, you just don't want address the nastiness of situation. Which is typical of genuinely well meaning white people, due to the nature of it tends to force them to take a hard look at themselves.

I also have a very solid understanding of literature thanks to my schooling, not to say schooling makes one better then another, but based on your ill conceived lay out of main and supporting characters it at least places me a a few legs a head of you until proven otherwise.

However, thank you for the conversation all the same.[/QUOTE]

First off, I'm a black guy. I don't like being marginalized anymore than you do, but I also like to see the characters I'm interested in (black or otherwise) have actually worthwhile stories told about. The origins of some of these characters may bother me, but Wallace isn't one of them. And regardless of your your bizarre definitions not every character whose ever had a a story focused on them is a main character in every story they appear in thereafter

[QUOTE=Modamy;4640970]First off, I'm a black guy. I don't like being marginalized anymore than you do, but I also like to see the characters I'm interested in (black or otherwise) have actually worthwhile stories told about. The origins of some of these characters may bother me, but Wallace isn't one of them. [B]And regardless of your your bizarre definitions not every character whose ever had a a story focused on them is a main character in every story they appear in thereafter[/B][/QUOTE]

I never said they were. I said the issue is that Wallace is character reason for being and who's only purpose is to serve under a white character. When other characters were available to do so.

And to be honest the fact that you are a black male in such support of leaving the character as is, as opposed to giving him CLEAR defining traits outside of being just BLACK, is sad. To the point that I would argue contributes to the problem, to the extent of motivating guys like Dan Didio to continue pulling the same crap that brought Wallace into being in the first place.