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[QUOTE=Pav;3981601]You need to step out of your own perceptions and attempt to consider the perceptions of the writers and editors.
If Ben was disliked, he wouldn't be used at all -- and while "shock and awe" is definitely a thing, I don't think PAD's plan was to "piss off" fans. You just didn't like his attempt.
So, maybe stop projecting.
-Pav, who thought we'd covered this already...[/QUOTE]
Well, let's recap:
So far Marvel has:
- Killed Ben
- Left him on the shelf for over 20 years, teasing his return more than once but not following through
- Finally brought him back as basically a completely different character, after killing him 27 more times
- Teased redeeming him, then killed him AGAIN at the last second and doubled-down on making him a supervillain
- Will likely kill him YET AGAIN in Spidergeddon
There is a pattern of behavior here.
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[QUOTE=Mister Mets;3982322]He's starring in a movie, and has been in several TV shows.[/QUOTE]
So could Ben, if Marvel were so inclined.
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I like the idea someone had a couple pages ago where Ben travels the country like he did in the Lost Years (or his stories in Europe during the 'Web Of Spider-man' series).
Every story arc could take place in a different town. He works odd jobs and all he owns is the clothes on his back. Similar to the Bill Bixby 'Hulk" T.V. show.
The original Ben found a job at a coffee shop and bonded with those people. It made for great story-telling. This new series had none of that! In fact, did this Ben even have a job throughout the entire 25 issues?
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[QUOTE=Scarlet Spider-Man;3983069]Well, let's recap:
So far Marvel has:
- Killed Ben
- Left him on the shelf for over 20 years, teasing his return more than once but not following through
- Finally brought him back as basically a completely different character, after killing him 27 more times
- Teased redeeming him, then killed him AGAIN at the last second and doubled-down on making him a supervillain
- Will likely kill him YET AGAIN in Spidergeddon
There is a pattern of behavior here.[/QUOTE]
And your analysis of that "pattern of behavior" is skewed by your own personal biases.
It happens.
-Pav, who doesn't know why you assume he's going to die again when there's been zero evidence of it...
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[QUOTE=MJM Mystery Writer;3983457]I like the idea someone had a couple pages ago where Ben travels the country like he did in the Lost Years (or his stories in Europe during the 'Web Of Spider-man' series).
Every story arc could take place in a different town. He works odd jobs and all he owns is the clothes on his back. Similar to the Bill Bixby 'Hulk" T.V. show.
The original Ben found a job at a coffee shop and bonded with those people. It made for great story-telling.[B]This new series had none of that! In fact, did this Ben even have a job throughout the entire 25 issues?[/B][/QUOTE]
Yeah, to find a cure for the girl.
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[QUOTE=Scarlet Spider-Man;3983072]So could Ben, if Marvel were so inclined.[/QUOTE]
What makes Ben Reilly a good fit for film? It requires complex backstory, and there's a limited audience who likes him in particular (in comparison to the size of a crowd that likes the idea of a half-black/ half-latino Spider-Man)
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We act as if all the writers in the past were in perfect agreement on what Ben Reilly should be.
The Life of Reilly website illustrates clearly that the 90s writers were of varied minds, and obviously decisions had to be made and we got what was published.
Same thing is probably happening these days, as well.
As for the whole Lost Years status, I think that certainly works to some degree, as it gives Ben a distinct difference from Peter. I mean, I'd read it if that's what they decided to do with Ben -- but then, I'll read pretty much whatever :)
-Pav, who just likes reading about Ben...
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[QUOTE=TheNewFiftyForum;3982856]When exactly was the time of these heroes one could root for? I mean, looking at the mythological heroes that many like to see as the archetype for the modern superhero, they weren't exactly perfect or flawless. And as for the real world having made people cynical; I do agree that a lot of things are bad today, but it's not like we're in some kind of freefall from a golden age either. History is littered with racism, misogyny, war, plague, despair, even genocide, and you don't have to go back far to find it.[/QUOTE]
some decent points in there. often heroes were as much a warning as an inspiration in myth.
people blame GoT for its bleakness, but GRR literally lifted bits of history and existing myth and put into his books.
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[QUOTE=Pav;3983612]And your analysis of that "pattern of behavior" is skewed by your own personal biases.
It happens.
-Pav, who doesn't know why you assume he's going to die again when there's been zero evidence of it...[/QUOTE]
or ignoring context. that "pattern" doesn't exist in a void...you have to take into account the external pressures and circumstances at those different junctures too.
[I]context[/I]
at the very most, you can accuse marvel of abandoning the character out of fear/backlash and then timidly teasing him/testing the waters before miscalculating and fumbling his return. that's not hatred.
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[QUOTE=Mister Mets;3983824]What makes Ben Reilly a good fit for film? It requires complex backstory, and there's a limited audience who likes him in particular (in comparison to the size of a crowd that likes the idea of a half-black/ half-latino Spider-Man)[/QUOTE]
as much as i love ben, even more than peter, a standalone movie that isn't spun out of the [I]homecoming [/I]series makes zero sense.
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[QUOTE=TheNewFiftyForum;3982856]When exactly was the time of these heroes one could root for? I mean, looking at the mythological heroes that many like to see as the archetype for the modern superhero, they weren't exactly perfect or flawless. And as for the real world having made people cynical; I do agree that a lot of things are bad today, but it's not like we're in some kind of freefall from a golden age either. History is littered with racism, misogyny, war, plague, despair, even genocide, and you don't have to go back far to find it.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=boots;3984031]some decent points in there. often heroes were as much a warning as an inspiration in myth.
people blame GoT for its bleakness, but GRR literally lifted bits of history and existing myth and put into his books.[/QUOTE]
Perhaps, yeah. Things were never that good, I can agree with that much, but maybe it's the nostalgic blinders that got to me that day.
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[QUOTE=Huntsman Spider;3984094]Perhaps, yeah. Things were never that good, I can agree with that much, but maybe it's the nostalgic blinders that got to me that day.[/QUOTE]
i think you're right...but i also don't reckon it's just about right and wrong. i mean, heroes can be a lot of things.
superheroes aren't necessarily the same as heroes. the only thing that really separates them (traditionally) other than the costumes was their sense of optimism and idealism.
so i think there's room and there should [I]always [/I]be room for superheroes the way you describe them. but it's a big room, they can all fit.
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[QUOTE=Pav;3983612]And your analysis of that "pattern of behavior" is skewed by your own personal biases.
It happens.
-Pav, who doesn't know why you assume he's going to die again when there's been zero evidence of it...[/QUOTE]
Are you claiming that you have no bias on the subject?
Trust me, I'm every bit as big of a Ben fan as you are, but I'm not willing to accept a character I don't recognize simply because his name happens to be Ben Reilly. I gave PAD a shot, even bought all the trades, but it's clear that Marvel is intent on making Ben something else, and I don't like what that is.
It has little to do with analysis. Each item on the list I posted is a fact, except for the final item, which is TBD.
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[QUOTE=Mister Mets;3983824]What makes Ben Reilly a good fit for film? It requires complex backstory, and there's a limited audience who likes him in particular (in comparison to the size of a crowd that likes the idea of a half-black/ half-latino Spider-Man)[/QUOTE]
It really doesn't, though. You introduce Miles Warren in a film to set up Ben for another film. It doesn't have to be unnecessarily convoluted. Even the 90s cartoon was able to introduce Ben without a complex backstory. Same with Kaine in the newer cartoons.
It seems like your claim that Miles Morales is more relevant is simply due to "diversity" rather than the character himself.
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[QUOTE=Pav;3983612]And your analysis of that "pattern of behavior" is skewed by your own personal biases.
It happens.
-Pav, who doesn't know why you assume he's going to die again when there's been zero evidence of it...[/QUOTE]
I think you might be blinded by your own biased optimism if you don't think there is a chance Ben will be used as canon fodder (continuing the trend established in the 90's).