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Is it bad that I really don't like the Speed Force at all? And now there's a lot of other Forces, too.
The inconsistency of it and what it does, etc. just drives me crazy (big issue there with Irey and Jai fighting over it). Also don't think speedsters need any other abilities that got introduced later (speed thievery, Bart's scouts, Barry's electrokinesis, etc.).
I honestly prefer the simple meta gene.
[QUOTE=Tzigone;4440464]Is it bad that I really don't like the Speed Force at all?[/QUOTE]
I actually remember the Usenet discussions when it was first introduced in the Terminal Velocity storyline (Flash, vol 2 #95-100) in 1994-5. Everyone was in one of two camps:
1. What the heck is this garbage?
2. Eh. It's comic book "science". I've seen worse.
Nobody [B]ever[/B] actually [I]liked[/I] the Speed Force. Honestly, I'm really surprised it lasted this long, given what a silly concept it is. I'd actually call it the worst thing to come out of Mark Waid's otherwise fantastic Flash run.
[QUOTE=Tzigone;4440464]Is it bad that I really don't like the Speed Force at all? And now there's a lot of other Forces, too.
The inconsistency of it and what it does, etc. just drives me crazy (big issue there with Irey and Jai fighting over it). Also don't think speedsters need any other abilities that got introduced later (speed thievery, Bart's scouts, Barry's electrokinesis, etc.).
I honestly prefer the simple meta gene.[/QUOTE]
Not a fan of it either. I hate the electricity foolishness they tried to take on it.
[QUOTE=SixSpeedSamurai;4429709]Barry returning.
Everything they did to Tim in New 52
Wallace West
Jason Todd being at the circus when Dick's parents died
Diana not being born of clay
New 52 Wonder Girl
New 52 Superboy
New 52 Kid Flash
Supermans parents being dead
Alan Scott and Ray Terrell being gay
Batman not knowing his parents killer
Cyborg being a JL founder and not a Teen Titan[/QUOTE]
Agreed. I'm meh on Ray being gay but I wish they didn't write out his girlfriend, Jen. She was important to helping him adjust to his new life.
Also agree with this.
[QUOTE=Ropeburn;4438248]Gordon being young enough to replace Batman for a time.
Bringing back "A" Terra after the Judas Contract. Other dimensional or otherwise, just stop. It's too good of a story to mess with.
Wonder Woman being the daughter of Zeus and all the ugly designs of Azz's Olympian Gods, especially Hades, Ares and Apollo.
[B]I loved Azz's Hera though.[/B]
WW's God mode power.
Cyborg being an original member of the JLA. I also dislike his power change. He's basically a taxi service for the JLA now.
[B]Hard agree. I do not like the mother box retcon. It was nice to consider a power boost but it made him a plot device. They should've just went with promethium. [/B]
Cyborg still having daddy issues after decades. Let him grow him up already. Quit retelling the same tired origin stories.
Barry Allen returning from the dead. DC finally gets it right with a legacy character but decides to bring back Barry anyway. Wally grew up and fought with Barry. Wally deserves to be the Flash after Barry's demise unlike so many other characters that take over a mantle without ever knowing the oringial (Blue Beetle, Firestorm, Green Arrow, Kyle Rayner, basically every 90's and up replacement). Under Wally the Speed Force was created. Wally had his own villains to fight on top of Barry's old ones. He was his own man.
Revisiting Donna Troy's origin over and over again. WW rescued her as a baby, she grew up on Paradise Island, the Purple Ray gave her the same abilities as WW, let's move on.
Changeling changing his name back to Beast Boy. He can't be a kid forever. Name him Menagerie if you have to.
Raven being in high school. Back in the 80's she was taking college classes. 80 retcons later, she's a goth chick in high school. Let the Titans grow up. You have Young Justice to deal with pimples and dating problems.
[B]Goth Raven was the worst thing to happen to the character.[/B]
Martian Manhunter not being a founder of the Justice League. He is the heart and soul of the team.
NU52 Black Canary using her canary cry to fly. Her name isn't Siryn.
Black Canary being an amazing singer in a band, because her powers are sonic based (shudder).
[B]This was just stupid and is so damn juvenile.[/B]
Chief being a bad guy. Maxwell Lord being a bad guy. Jericho being a bad guy. Killer Frost being a good guy. Basically anyone designed to be good going bad and vice versa.
[B]DC turning Killer Frost good was just a way to write out Ice, DC not slick. Along with this, DC needs to stop turning female villains good[/B].[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Tzigone;4440464]Is it bad that I really don't like the Speed Force at all? And now there's a lot of other Forces, too.
[/QUOTE]
I don't like it and I don't feel bad about it. Pseudo-science in comics is fine, but this doesn't feel like science to me. It's metaphysics dressed up as science. Good comic book science has a logical pattern even if it's a bunch of hooey.
If John Broome explained that just like a straw in a hurricane can pierce a tree, so the Flash can speed through a wall--that made sense, even if it wasn't actually right. But the Speed Force doesn't take a commonplace phenomenon and use that as a metaphor to present the Speed Force. Waid's idea is really like a black box--where he shows you a box and tells you there's something in that box but never explains what's in the box.
If they had just said that the Speed Force was magic, that would've been a more honest explanation of what it is. Because that's how it's used. But because the Flash is supposed to be a science fiction hero not a supernatural hero, they tried to make the Speed Force seem like it's science--when it isn't.
[QUOTE=Fromper;4438039]Wasn't that part of Tim's original origin story, during A Lonely Place of Dying? Does that still count as a retcon? Sure, it adds a detail to Dick's origin story, but it doesn't actually change any pre-existing details.[/QUOTE]
It is tough for me keeping up with Post-Crisis continuity.
[QUOTE=Tzigone;4438069]Probably not (though the death scene plays out differently (clothes, etc.) in various versions). If Tim is roughly Jason's age, then he's 7 years younger than Dick. If Dick was 13 when his parents died, then Tim would be 6. If he's 2 years younger than Jason, then 4ish? But 13 was used in Post-Crisis (when Dick confronted Bruce about hiring Jason). And Jason was in 7th grade shorty before dying, so being close to 13 made sense. Later age changes muddied that up (Dick was 8, etc.). But Dick didn't seem 13 in that story, despite previous comments, and his age as orphaning has bounced about, though I don't know when that started. The biggest problem for me was putting Batman (rather than Bruce Wayne) at the circus. I mean, publicly, in front of entire audience. But I'm not at all sure this was the first version of the story to go that route (I just know the original didn't).[/QUOTE]If you just go by "Batman:Year 3" and "A Lonely Place of Dying" Tim would have iirc been 3 when Dick parents died. Since the main story of "Batman:Year 3" was set 10 year after the death of Dick Parents and Tim was 13 in "A Lonely Place of Dying".
That would imo made Dick 11 when his parents died. But the comics have been really inconsistent when it comes to how old Dick was, I think just in books from the post crisis/pre flashpoint continuity you can find everything from 6 to 16.
[quote] But the comics have been really inconsistent when it comes to how old Dick was, I think just in books from the post crisis/pre flashpoint continuity you can find everything from 6 to 16.[/quote]Ain't that the truth. I think a lot of fans like a baby!Dick who cuddles with Bruce after nightmares (it's shown up in canon) and younger is better. I like Bruce as a good dad, as I feel he was in the golden age (barring the masked crimefighting, which I ignore based on premise of the comic). I definitely like Bruce as a father (not brother) figure to him, and I think that's in keeping with the early depiction. But I don't think Dick acted like an 8 year old then (nor did Roy) - especially with his undercover work, which was more suited to an older child, IMO. And it's important to me, too, that the Graysons are his parents, too, and that he be old enough to remember them well. I like something a little older. It's 10-13 for me. I find that more consistent with his GA depiction, too. But, like you said, canon is all over the place.
For a more minor annoying retcon I was just reminded of - Francine Langstrom. She got vilified. Also, while I like Gotham Academy quite a bit, I still can't figure out how the Lansgtrom virus plays in. Actually, even before that, there was retconning going on with the kids' ages I didn't like.
[QUOTE=Thor-Ul;4437693]The retcon than Batman precedes Superman is something I really dislike.[/QUOTE]
Agreed. I think it worked for certain universes like DCEU. Nope for all others. I hate Superman being inspired by Batman too. It made Clark look like a incompetent Robin.
Malcolm Thawne was a pretty terrible idea, IMO. I could sort of accept the baby switcheroo premise for Mary Marvel because it was written in the 1940s. But in the 1990s?
For the record, Superman's parents being dead isn't a retcon. Them living to Clark's adulthood is the retcon.
[QUOTE=Sacred Knight;4487052]For the record, Superman's parents being dead isn't a retcon. Them living to Clark's adulthood is the retcon.[/QUOTE]
Exactly, the death of Pa Kent was a pivotal moment in Clark's life for most of his publishing history. While I understand that a lot of fans' first experiences with Superman were during the couple decades when they were alive, it shouldn't be forgotten that the Kents living was the retcon, not the other way around. Superman has existed for far, far longer than the period spanning from '86 to '09.
A retcon of a retcon is still a retcon. Claiming otherwise is hair splitting, and hair splittung isn't exactly constructive.
[QUOTE=Tzigone;4452975] But I don't think Dick acted like an 8 year old then (nor did Roy) - especially with his undercover work, which was more suited to an older child, IMO. And it's important to me, too, that the Graysons are his parents, too, and that he be old enough to remember them well. I like something a little older. It's 10-13 for me. I find that more consistent with his GA depiction, too. But, like you said, canon is all over the place.[/QUOTE]I also think that 11-12 makes the most sense.
Thats still young enough for the father son relation ship, but old enough that it is at least somehow believable (at least in comics book), ant it fits best with the actual comics.
On top of this if go with 8 (or even 6, that was used in the first Nightwing Mini series), you just massively age up Batman.
[QUOTE=Tzigone;4452975]For a more minor annoying retcon I was just reminded of - Francine Langstrom. She got vilified. Also, while I like Gotham Academy quite a bit, I still can't figure out how the Lansgtrom virus plays in. Actually, even before that, there was retconning going on with the kids' ages I didn't like.[/QUOTE]ja the kids ages are odd, his daugther was born late in the bronze age, she could at best be 7 or 8 (roughly 1 or 2 years older than Lian Harper) by the time of flashpoit, and the son should have probably still been a toodler.
[QUOTE=nhienphan2808;4425465]He has learned. Tim and Dick helped save him, and the family grew larger. Up to 2000 that is. Everything went ugly and ooc after that, no wonder Jason was angry.[/QUOTE]
I think fans have selective memories. Bruce is and has always been the worst. This a bloke that after losing his son to a dangerous lifestyle that he thrust him into decided that the best thing to do was to take on a white kid from the burbs' who had a safe and secure life, no fighting skills and get him to sneak out at night without his folks consent that eventually got the kids dad killed.
Dick might have saved Bruce but Robin isn't Batman's light and tim never saved Bruce especially when you consider that Tec Rebirth gave us in Tim's own words the real reason why he joined up. [Nothing to do with it needed to be done or batman needing a Robin more like a fanboy desperate to be part of the duo. he was the only one who could not Dick not anyone. Tim felt he was the only person who could save Bruce. Save him from what? From the grief of losing a son because that how it works. When one son dies simply replace them except when it's your blood then you have to bring them back]
Bruce has always been a bad father way before the 2000's. I can't understand why fans like to ignore that. Yon might be a fan of the older comics but don't try to spin the truth how Bruce used to be better in the good old days.They weren't.
If Bruce needs a random kid to guide him and keep him in check then he is the worst hero in the DCU and has no business being a hero.