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[QUOTE=Tiamatty;3180989]Sure, let's destroy the list entirely, [I]as long as it means there are women who get to be super-geniuses[/I]! Because that's the real crux of the problem. As stupid an idea as the "Smartest Person" list was, the greater problem was, as I kept pointing out, any grouping of genius heroes was ALWAYS exclusively male. Always always always. If a bunch of genius heroes got together to work on whatever the latest threat was, it was only men. There were never women included. Female geniuses were villains or civilians. I think I could probably count on one hand the number of female genius superheroes prior to Moon Girl debuting. You had Mockingbird (who was dead for a long time), you had Kitty, and who the hell else was there? Was there anyone else?
If people want to end the idea of ranking the smartest characters - which, for the record, was something the fans began in the first place - then that's great. But if a gathering of Big Brains is all-male? That is still misogynistic as hell. If Lunella and Nadia and Riri and Bobbi and Kitty still get left out of discussions of genius characters, that's still misogynistic.
The fans who bitch about Lunella being ranked as The Smartest need to [I]actually push[/I] for more female genius characters before they can be taken seriously when they bitch about the rankings. It's that simple. People [I]do not[/I] get to be [I]completely goddamn silent[/I] on [I]50 goddamn years[/I] of there being no female genius superheroes, and then bitch when one is brought in who's stated to be smarter than one of their precious male genius superheroes. These people didn't give a single shit about the fact that women were entirely omitted from gatherings of geniuses. They didn't care. [I]They never cared.[/I] Frankly, [I][B]they still don't care[/B][/I]. They'll say that they care. "Oh, of course there should be female geniuses! I totally support there being female geniuses!" Then stop shitting on them now that they're finally getting to exist. If the next event has a bunch of smart characters working together on a way to beat the villain, and there are no women in that room, these people won't say a damn word. Hell, they'll defend it! "The writer just used the characters who made sense!" Because they still think it makes perfect sense for major STEM projects to not have a single woman involved.
So fine. Eliminate the list, and let's [I][B]ALL[/B][/I] actually push for more female genius superheroes, and for them to get more use as technical consultants outside their own books, and for them to be in the room when events have groups of geniuses working together. Can we agree on that? Can we all agree, the next time a Marvel events has a bunch of geniuses, that we will ALL call bullshit if the group is entirely male?
Because, and I really can't stress this enough, Marvel's spent the last 50+ years omitting women as genius superheroes. And the people bitching about Moon Girl never had a single damn thing to say about that.[/QUOTE]
I agree that female geniuses generally get the shaft (its the same problem with geniuses of colour) but I disagree that there weren't that many geniuses out there. We had a bunch that you forgot to mention like Moondragon, Monica Rambaeu, M, Dr Moira and Kavita Rao etc. Maybe you should read more comics huh?
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[QUOTE=Abe;3181043]As you say it's hilarious and really beyond me too...
[url]https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malleability_of_intelligence[/url][/QUOTE]
Try to understand what you link to because really nothing said in that page contradicts what I have stated. Maybe don't stop at the title next time, or at least try to understand what the title means.
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[QUOTE=16andCanadian;3181109]I agree that female geniuses generally get the shaft (its the same problem with geniuses of colour) but I disagree that there weren't that many geniuses out there. We had a bunch that you forgot to mention like Moondragon, Monica Rambaeu, M, Dr Moira and Kavita Rao etc. Maybe you should read more comics huh?[/QUOTE]
I could list like dozens and dozens of “A-list” male geniuses while after 4 minor or obscure character your examples stop. What doest that suggest you?
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[QUOTE=SignorMiracolo;3181281]I could list like dozens and dozens of “A-list” male geniuses while after 4 minor or obscure character your examples stop. What doest that suggest you?[/QUOTE]
Moira Mactaggert
Betty Ross
Valeria Richards
Black Swan
Ruby Thursday
Nightshade
Superia
Monica Rappaccini
Kavita Rao
Sage
Geiger
Alyssa Moy
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[QUOTE=SignorMiracolo;3181281]I could list like dozens and dozens of “A-list” male geniuses while after 4 minor or obscure character your examples stop. What doest that suggest you?[/QUOTE]
I already agreed females get the shaft along with any genius from the minority background when it comes to promoting the smartest people on Earth. I was trying to correct Tiamatty who claimed that Marvel barely had any female geniuses before Riri, Nadia and Lunella came along. That was a dumb and extremely false statement to make.
And he females aren't the only ones who get the shaft lol. White males suffer too. When was the last time we had Dr Nemesis belong in the room with other MALE geniuses to solve an issue? Who's going to answer for that?
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[QUOTE=16andCanadian;3181555]I already agreed females get the shaft along with any genius from the minority background when it comes to promoting the smartest people on Earth. I was trying to correct Tiamatty who claimed that Marvel barely had any female geniuses before Riri, Nadia and Lunella came along. [B]That was a dumb and extremely false statement to make.[/B]
[/QUOTE]
No it's not if they have not been shown that often. Aside from Dr. Taggert have any of those females have called genius outside of Marvel directories or bios?
[QUOTE]
And he females aren't the only ones who get the shaft lol. [B]White males suffer too.[/B] When was the last time we had Dr Nemesis belong in the room with other MALE geniuses to solve an issue? Who's going to answer for that?
[/QUOTE]
Who HONESTLY cares? Really who HONESTLY cares?
OH poor Dr Nemesis-who most folks NEVER heard of aside from the "we are victims" X-men books from almost 9 years ago. Is left out. Who cares?
And if he was included in that room does that make him smarter than all the POC & females who happen to be smart and left out?
What about Thunderball? The BLACK BRUCE BANNER. The guy who was in cartoon shows, video game and has a toy. Sad that it took almost 40+ years before someone REMINDED everyone that he was a genius in Black Panther's book.
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[QUOTE=16andCanadian;3181555]I already agreed females get the shaft along with any genius from the minority background when it comes to promoting the smartest people on Earth. I was trying to correct Tiamatty who claimed that Marvel barely had any female geniuses before Riri, Nadia and Lunella came along. That was a dumb and extremely false statement to make.
And he females aren't the only ones who get the shaft lol. White males suffer too. When was the last time we had Dr Nemesis belong in the room with other MALE geniuses to solve an issue? Who's going to answer for that?[/QUOTE]
Lol, @ when was the last time the Nazi/maybe reform Nazi (doctor nemesis) got to do something..
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I miss Moira Mactaggert too.
Also don't like Lunella being the smartest person. Have her a prodigy like say Val but having her actually be the smartest person seems incredibly stupid at her age.
I think Marvel has been listening to too many intersectional feminists and went the wrong direction with this.
If they felt there was a lack of balance here(which there totally is) they should have cast an ADULT woman in that role not a child.
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[QUOTE=SignorMiracolo;3181279]Try to understand what you link to because really nothing said in that page contradicts what I have stated. Maybe don't stop at the title next time, or at least try to understand what the title means.[/QUOTE]
I only suggested that your words : "It's not something one earn or acquire, it's a quality one is born with" should be nuanced. Because, you know, neural plasticity and all. As a teacher I don't like very much the idea that intelligence is totally determined at birth, as if the brain could be reduced to DNA.
As a reader I just think those lists have absolutely no interest.
Btw the IQ, for what it worths, takes the age in account. That's why it's a quotient. So even if the scores are the same in the way the IQ formulates them at different ages, the results to the "intelligence tests" it uses are not the same. Lunella will do more while growing up - even if her IQ stays the same.
Sorry if I wasn't clear enough. And a bit sarcastic too. But in mirror of your own wording, which I found lacking of nuance and a bit peremptory. Something I must admit I dislike in those discussions on the net. Sorry for that too. I would add that after quickly the whole thread I don't really get who are the people you were referring too in your first post.:confused:
Btw you could also notice that it's the first time I talked about Lunella here. A precision in the case you're thinking I was participating in one of those Moongirl wars...
I'm done with this thread btw which I recognize I derailed a bit talking about Jack Kirby or old Iron Man stories. Sorry for that too.
And all my apologies for the bad English : not my language. Thus my difficulties when I try to understand something in English sometimes :(. I hope you'll have the wisdom to understand that too.
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[QUOTE=Crimz;3181015]This reminds me that I hate the way supergeniuses are good at everything when they should have specific fields. Like Reed Richards, who for some reason is meant to be the best at everything scientific when he should only have one main field which is physics. He could have good knowledge of other fields, but he shouldn't be great at all things science and I wish that would change.
With the Reed example it can even help the story, like his inability over the years to cure Ben. He could have been having such a problem with it because it requires biology something that he's not an expert in.[/QUOTE]
There are a few good stories that address this. There was a great 80s FF where Reed seeks out Dr. Octopus for help during Sue's second pregnancy and Doc Ock is presented as the world's greatest expert on radiation.
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[QUOTE=blanchett;3181652]I miss Moira Mactaggert too.
Also don't like Lunella being the smartest person. Have her a prodigy like say Val but having her actually be the smartest person seems incredibly stupid at her age.
I think Marvel has been listening to too many intersectional feminists and went the wrong direction with this.
If they felt there was a lack of balance here(which there totally is) they should have cast an ADULT woman in that role not a child.[/QUOTE]
Yea it honestly feels like Marvel, in trying to course correct, veered too much in the opposite direction and overcompensated. If they were just trying to inspire young girls, why does she have to be the smartest? What about her story or character requires that she be the smartest rather than a prodigy? Take away the title and what even changes about her story? Because all the flaws that were mentioned about her character still would apply to a prodigy. The whole thing just feels like an artificial way to hype up Moon Girl rather than real story development. The publicity certainly hasn’t helped her character either with her questionable inclusion in the Secret Warriors or that terrible scene of her in America.
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I think plenty of people have made good points, but I have an honest question:
Would y'all recommend the book for my nieces? They are 7 and 6, and I want to start getting books for them because they're constantly asking me to read them my books. Of course, I can't because they contain lots of NSFW elements. Just because I might not like the book doesn't mean I want the character to go away.
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[QUOTE=Grim Ghost;3181913]There are a few good stories that address this. There was a great 80s FF where Reed seeks out Dr. Octopus for help during Sue's second pregnancy and Doc Ock is presented as the world's greatest expert on radiation.[/QUOTE]
Yeah I also remember an early story where the FF needed Hank Pyms help when they were shrunk by Doom. Unfortunately nowadays things are worse and a supergenius seems to be an expert in all fields, it's especially bad with Reed. Like when this crap happened between Reed and Hank:
[IMG]https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11116/111164369/4740583-2339483-2101899_1354467_pym_particles_super.jpg[/IMG]
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To be honest, I am not much of a fan of Moon Girl, though her intelligence is nothing to do with it. I just think she is a bit... unlikable? No, arrogant is the word I am more thinking off. I mean yeah, she is just a kid but still... I am also not that keen on how they portray her and Devils relationship. I dunno, she seems to just put up with him, rather then there being a real classic connection on the level of say... Rocket and Groot. I just feel sorry for Devil when I read the books! Thats just me though, I may not like the character all that much, but I love the message that Marvel do send out with her. I think she, along with the likes of Kamala and perhaps even America Chavez, are character Marvel are priming for success outside the comics.
[QUOTE=Hizashi;3181970]I think plenty of people have made good points, but I have an honest question:
Would y'all recommend the book for my nieces? They are 7 and 6, and I want to start getting books for them because they're constantly asking me to read them my books. Of course, I can't because they contain lots of NSFW elements. Just because I might not like the book doesn't mean I want the character to go away.[/QUOTE]
I think the ultimate book for youngsters I would recommend is The Unbeatable Squirrel Girl, but yeah, I think Moon Girl would be a good book for them too.
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[QUOTE=Tiamatty;3180989]So fine. Eliminate the list, and let's [I][B]ALL[/B][/I] actually push for more female genius superheroes, and for them to get more use as technical consultants outside their own books, and for them to be in the room when events have groups of geniuses working together. Can we agree on that? Can we all agree, the next time a Marvel events has a bunch of geniuses, that we will ALL call bullshit if the group is entirely male?
[/QUOTE]
You know what was unbelievable bullshit? Marvel made a recent list of the smartest people on earth and it had 4 GIRLS, not one single adult WOMAN on that fucken list! If memory serves me quickly, it was two girls under 10(MG and Val) and two teens(RiRi and Nadia). Seriously, WTF? NO ADULT WOMEN? 4 KIDS? Has Marvel become a Shojo company?
There was a thread on this and I'm not going to search for it. Quite honestly I don't give a SHIT about the list, but c'mon Marvel, use some ADULT WOMEN. And there were no boys or male teens in that list.
