Questions about DC Speedsters

Hello,

I have some questions:

1. How do Max Mercurys and Jay Garricks Powers work?
They were there BEFORE Barry Allen and if Barry created the Speedforce how can they run?

2. As far as I remember Bart (as adult) said to Jay Garrick that he is the fastest Man alive again, because Speedforce disappeared.
So Jay is indipendent from the Speedforce?

3. NEW52 Kid Flash had Super-Speed BUT without Speedforce...
Barry said that NEW52 Kid Flashs Powers worked in another way than his powers...

4. Wallace is the son of Reverse Flash II....
But Reverse Flash II had different Speed-Force than Barry,Wally,Bart.....
But Wallace seemingly uses the Speed-force and not the other source like his father or?

5. At the beginning of the Button Story Reverse Flash was killed by Dr. Manhattan (if I remember right)
Barry checked his body and found out that Reverse Flash was now using same Speed-Force as Barry did and not the negative Speed-Force..

6. Did Godspeed ever met Bart?

[QUOTE=Masterff;5038163]Hello,

I have some questions:

1. How do Max Mercurys and Jay Garricks Powers work?
They were there BEFORE Barry Allen and if Barry created the Speedforce how can they run?

2. As far as I remember Bart (as adult) said to Jay Garrick that he is the fastest Man alive again, because Speedforce disappeared.
So Jay is indipendent from the Speedforce?

3. NEW52 Kid Flash had Super-Speed BUT without Speedforce...
Barry said that NEW52 Kid Flashs Powers worked in another way than his powers...

4. Wallace is the son of Reverse Flash II....
But Reverse Flash II had different Speed-Force than Barry,Wally,Bart.....
But Wallace seemingly uses the Speed-force and not the other source like his father or?

5. At the beginning of the Button Story Reverse Flash was killed by Dr. Manhattan (if I remember right)
Barry checked his body and found out that Reverse Flash was now using same Speed-Force as Barry did and not the negative Speed-Force..

6. Did Godspeed ever met Bart?[/QUOTE]

The Speedforce situation is weird, either Barry created it or was the first person to actually discover it, depending on the writer. Some writers imply that the Speedforce and Barry are in some sort of weird temporal loop, Barry created the Speedforce and to ensure it's own creation, the Speedforce 'arranged' the specific set of circumstances that would lead Barry to create it.

I think that the Speedforce always existed and is just using speedsters as pawns for its own agenda, whatever that may be.

I'm not too familiar with Max Mercury, but I recall writers implying that Jay's powers declined due to his age. So Jay in his prime might've been good as or better than Barry.

[QUOTE=king81992;5038208]

I think that the Speedforce always existed and is just using speedsters as pawns for its own agenda, whatever that may be.
[/QUOTE]
I’ve always thought the former, but not the latter. Has any writer ever touched on the SF being less than benevolent?

[QUOTE=Riv86672;5038229]I’ve always thought the former, but not the latter. Has any writer ever touched on the SF being less than benevolent?[/QUOTE]

As far as I know, nobody has. Writers haven't actually defined the Speed Force yet, it always does whatever the plot wants it to. The only consistent thing about the Speed Force is that its what allows Barry and other Speedsters to time travel.

[QUOTE=king81992;5038208]The Speedforce situation is weird, either Barry created it or was the first person to actually discover it, depending on the writer. Some writers imply that the Speedforce and Barry are in some sort of weird temporal loop, Barry created the Speedforce and to ensure it's own creation, the Speedforce 'arranged' the specific set of circumstances that would lead Barry to create it.

I think that the Speedforce always existed and is just using speedsters as pawns for its own agenda, whatever that may be.

I'm not too familiar with Max Mercury, but I recall writers implying that Jay's powers declined due to his age. So Jay in his prime might've been good as or better than Barry.[/QUOTE]

Yes I know that Jays powers declined, thats absolutely logical....

My question related to JAY GARRICK was that after the fight with Superboy Prime there was a panel in which the ADULT BART said that the Speedforce is gone and he gives the Flash Costume to JAY and says that JAY is THE FASTEST MAN ALIVE again.

This implies for me that Jay Garrick doesnt need the Speedforce....

[QUOTE=Masterff;5038163]Hello,

I have some questions:

1. How do Max Mercurys and Jay Garricks Powers work?
They were there BEFORE Barry Allen and if Barry created the Speedforce how can they run?

2. As far as I remember Bart (as adult) said to Jay Garrick that he is the fastest Man alive again, because Speedforce disappeared.
So Jay is indipendent from the Speedforce?

3. NEW52 Kid Flash had Super-Speed BUT without Speedforce...
Barry said that NEW52 Kid Flashs Powers worked in another way than his powers...

4. Wallace is the son of Reverse Flash II....
But Reverse Flash II had different Speed-Force than Barry,Wally,Bart.....
But Wallace seemingly uses the Speed-force and not the other source like his father or?

5. At the beginning of the Button Story Reverse Flash was killed by Dr. Manhattan (if I remember right)
Barry checked his body and found out that Reverse Flash was now using same Speed-Force as Barry did and not the negative Speed-Force..

6. Did Godspeed ever met Bart?[/QUOTE]

1. The speedforce cascades through and exist independent of time. once it came into being it retroactively permeated all of time from that moment onward, from that present moment into the future and the past; effectively making it always exist once it existed.

2. IIRC Jay used to be independent of the speedforce but he's been retconned into a speedster for a while now.

3. Wallace's powers have always been from the speedforce, he gave himself powers.

4. Wallace's power's have nothing to do with his dad. he got his powers from his future self, then got a more pure and stable connection after the speedforce storm.

5. Probably an earlier Thawne, the dude's all over history and he's used all kinds of variations on the speedforce; it's why he's so hard to kill, he's a living paradox.

6. Yes, Bart beat his ass. August (Speedforce rest his soul) probably woulda waxed that ass at his peak tho.

[QUOTE=king81992;5038248]As far as I know, nobody has. Writers haven't actually defined the Speed Force yet, it always does whatever the plot wants it to. The only consistent thing about the Speed Force is that its what allows Barry and other Speedsters to time travel.[/QUOTE]
That is some untapped story material right there. Well done!

[QUOTE=Masterff;5038284]Yes I know that Jays powers declined, thats absolutely logical....

My question related to JAY GARRICK was that after the fight with Superboy Prime there was a panel in which the ADULT BART said that the Speedforce is gone and he gives the Flash Costume to JAY and says that JAY is THE FASTEST MAN ALIVE again.

This implies for me that Jay Garrick doesnt need the Speedforce....[/QUOTE]

Jay was never connected to the Speed Force, being connected to the Speed Force seems only necessary for time travel and without it, most speedster would probably keep their powers. This is very inconsistent though, recently writers have implied that no Speed Force= no speedsters.

[QUOTE=king81992;5038336]Jay was never connected to the Speed Force, being connected to the Speed Force seems only necessary for time travel and without it, most speedster would probably keep their powers. This is very inconsistent though, recently writers have implied that no Speed Force= no speedsters.[/QUOTE]

This is one of the reasons I moved away from The Flash. The paradoxical nature of the Speed Force was giving me migraines.

[QUOTE=DrNewGod;5038376]This is one of the reasons I moved away from The Flash. The paradoxical nature of the Speed Force was giving me migraines.[/QUOTE]

Not only is it truly convoluted, it took away Barry's agency as a character. He's like a meat suit getting dragged into unpleasant situations by a force he can't control or understand.
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I still don't really understand the Speed Force.

Is the Speed Force sentient? Has it "talked" or communicated to any of the speedsters? Or is it just a force that empowers speedsters?

[QUOTE=Phoenixx9;5038509]I still don't really understand the Speed Force.

Is the Speed Force sentient? Has it "talked" or communicated to any of the speedsters? Or is it just a force that empowers speedsters?[/QUOTE]

70% of the problem is that each author seems to have a different answer to that.

Leaving room for future authors to world-build? Awesome.

"It's Magic!"? There lies the path to chaos.

I'm convinced that one of the reasons Marvel came up so fast, and so successfully in The Silver Age is because Lee figured out that (in addition to characterization) it's The Limitations that make superheroes more compelling than The Abilities. The Abilities? Great visuals. The Limitation? Great plot points.

[QUOTE=Phoenixx9;5038509]I still don't really understand the Speed Force.

Is the Speed Force sentient? Has it "talked" or communicated to any of the speedsters? Or is it just a force that empowers speedsters?[/QUOTE]

Not even the writers know, at some point it's done all of these things. The only consistent thing about the Speed Force is its inconsistency.

Jay's just a metahuman, with no direct ties to the speed force. In the New52 he got his powers from Mercury/Hermes, if I recall correctly, but classic Jay is just a meta with speed abilities.

I think there has been a few stories where Jay was able to....touch....the speed force, as a kind of application of his metagene, but if you accept the idea that the speed force is the source of kinetic energy and motion in the multiverse then it's not really crazy to assume that Jay, with speed powers, could push against the speed force a little and manipulate it to a small degree. Not really much different from a person with fire powers being able to freeze a room by pulling all the heat out of the local molecules.

Max got his powers from the speed force in a bolt of lightning, just like Barry and Wally. He's the guy who first discovered that there was more to the lightning than just "weird, I have powers now!" and he spent his life studying it from a philosophical angle; the original zen master of speed. He tried to enter the force a few times, but was never fast enough (or was rejected intentionally, depending on who you ask), and each time he'd bounce off the speed force and tumble through time. He almost ended up dating his own daughter once because of that.

When Bart was the Flash the speed force had imploded and embedded itself in him, if I recall correctly. That's why he was so much faster in his short time as Flash than he had been as Impulse or Kid Flash; he was mainlining the entire speed force....or at least it's manifestation on earth-prime/1/whatever designate we're using this month. And when he died, I'm pretty sure the force was released from him and returned to its natural place, which I think is what allowed Wally to finally return home with Linda and the kids?

As for Barry creating it....that seems like something most writers try to ignore and move away from. Supposedly when it was created it spread through time and space, and thus had always existed, but "moment zero" was Barry getting struck by lightning. It's probably the stupidest thing in modern Flash mythology and I'm glad most writers don't acknowledge it.

If we look at Morrison's multiverse map, the speed force is the barrier between physical matter and higher dimensional energy. It's the speed of light and encompasses all earths. I think we can assume then, that the speed force is a multiversal fundamental force. In the same way that the universe has fundamental forces like gravity, electromagnetics, and the strong/weak forces, the multiverse has the speed force and....whatever else. If the speed force is kinetic motion then it represents physical space and the ability to move through it, so the still force is likely the manifestation of time and the ability to move through that, which would fit both the Turtle and Hunter Zolomon's power sets, though they use the power in different ways.

I'm not sure how the other two forces from Williamson's run would fit into the idea of multiversal fundamental forces, though the strong force's connection to gravity; the power that "holds things together" may be tied to the Bleed, which is the stuff between realities that keeps universes from colliding.