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[QUOTE=Agent Z;4611591]Those characters actually trained to be detectives. Diana wasn't operating as a detective in WW2, she was a soldier which is something else entirely.[/QUOTE]
And yet if they're implementing things from the movie, she was at the party for the same reason Bruce was and one-upped him by making off with his data ;)
I'm fine with Diana as the first superhero, though I do find her going back to Paradise Island after the atomic bomb... perplexing.
[QUOTE=LordUltimus;4612253]though I do find her going back to Paradise Island after the atomic bomb... perplexing.[/QUOTE]
Yeah. I guess it could be a "the world doesn't deserve her" bit, but that doesn't really work very well. I guess maybe she's dispirited by what happened (and the internment camps weren't enough to break her spirit) and what the "good guys" did. But the firebombings caused more deaths, just took more bombs. And her leaving instead of trying to change things doesn't exactly sit right with me, though for those who want a Bane-breaker, maybe. Seems unlikely, though, since retconning out having her walk away from the world seemed a very popular decision in movie-verse.
Or she could just leave because the war is over, but I think it would be worded differently in that case. Or maybe atomic bombs could pose a threat to Themyscira the way others couldn't and she goes back home because of that - let her people know, develop defenses. I don't know Plenty of possibilities.
Before this timeline ever came out, I've said that Diana's origin being tied to WW II was hurdle for her in terms of a consistent goal, setting, or supporting cast. I only see that getting worse when she's spread this far across time.
In the abstract, I don't mind Diana as the first superhero. But I don't think this could do her any favors. I'd hoped that DC had maybe decided to stop with the incessant rebooting of Wonder Woman in particular with Rebirth. Whether or not you think Rucka's version was the best possible, it was solid, cohesive, evergreen.
DC keeps thinking they need to change Diana's origin / status quo because she doesn't have one as iconic as Supes or Bats, but the reason for that is [I]because[/I] they keep fucking around with it.
[QUOTE=H-E-D;4613253]In the abstract, I don't mind Diana as the first superhero. But I don't think this could do her any favors. I'd hoped that DC had maybe decided to stop with the incessant rebooting of Wonder Woman in particular with Rebirth. Whether or not you think Rucka's version was the best possible, it was solid, cohesive, evergreen.
DC keeps thinking they need to change Diana's origin / status quo because she doesn't have one as iconic as Supes or Bats, but the reason for that is [I]because[/I] they keep fucking around with it.[/QUOTE]
That is very true. I just keep imagining that now every new creative team won't just change her location and supporting cast, but also change her time-frame.
Welp.
DC giveth Diana.
And DC (possibly) taketh Diana away.
[QUOTE]A new Batman, a new Superman, a new generation of DC Comics heroes. It was all starting to fit together. And now we know more. New first issue relaunches for both. That the first title to be relaunched will be Wonder Woman. Initially planned for January 2021, it may be rescheduled for November 2020. And every month from then on, a new relaunch of a DC Comics superhero title, with a new character in the lead. And not the obvious replacement either, this is not about sidekicks of legacies getting a promotion but the new generation of DC Comics superheroes getting their shot.[/QUOTE]
[url]https://www.bleedingcool.com/2019/10/07/gossip-wonder-woman-first-die-replaced-dc-comics-5g/[/url]
This sounded good on paper, but I can't see a way that this can be executed well.
I know I'm probably in the minority here, but I'm not crazy about the idea of them sticking classic WW supporting characters such as Steve and Etta in the distant past. Steve Trevor is a particularly difficult case, since his first meeting with Diana ties so closely to her origin story, and having her meet him later in life takes away all the impact. The way it stands, killing him off in WWII then resurrecting him in present time is the only solution. It's far from ideal, but there it is.
I don't want creepy Generation Xerox descendants. Just because comic books are absurd doesn't make it good storytelling.
I'm also suffering from Reboot fatigue. I know that as a comic book fan going in I should've known reboots and retcons will always be looming around the corner whether I like it or not, but it's only been 3 years since Rebirth retconned WW's origin, I'm not sure this is a good time to try to turn everything upside down all over again, regardless of your opinion on Year One. And this new timeline is trying (in vain) to incorporate all previous canon back into a single chronological series of events, including some writing decisions I was glad to leave behind (like Diana snapping Maxwell Lord's neck). Not sure I'm thrilled about that.
This just doesn't work. There's a reason comic books resorted to a floating timeline with no significant sign of time progression (or in DC's case, just rebooting with a clean slate) after years and years of floundering and wrestling with this age-old question. I could see this as a temporary thing or something that runs concurrently with the main continuity. Otherwise, this is just as doomed as Nu52 was. I just don't see it as sustainable long-term.
[QUOTE=H-E-D;4613253]DC keeps thinking they need to change Diana's origin / status quo because she doesn't have one as iconic as Supes or Bats, but the reason for that is [I]because[/I] they keep fucking around with it.[/QUOTE]
^^ THIS ^^
If this is yet another reboot, I hope that it is clear, simple and CANONICAL. Once it is established, it needs to remain in place for the next 20+ years (except for Elseworld stories) so that Diana's origin actually has an opportunity to become iconic like Batman and Superman's origins. And it needs to be able to be easily summed up in the same way as the origins for Batman (vigilante orphan of murdered parents) and Superman (sole survivor of an alien planet).
[QUOTE=Agent 86;4615260]^^ THIS ^^
If this is yet another reboot, I hope that it is clear, simple and CANONICAL. Once it is established, it needs to remain in place for the next 20+ years (except for Elseworld stories) so that Diana's origin actually has an opportunity to become iconic like Batman and Superman's origins. And it needs to be able to be easily summed up in the same way as the origins for Batman (vigilante orphan of murdered parents) and Superman (sole survivor of an alien planet).[/QUOTE]
It depends heavily on what they do with [i]other[/i] characters, too, I think and how the 60 year timeline works without Bruce being in his 50sin the present day. If it was just WW retreating to the island, that would allow for time progression. But with the JSA, and particularly with their kids playing a role. Dinah is back to being daughter of golden age Canary, which I think is a terrible idea, since they are firmly tying the JSA to WWII, and she doesn't work as the daughter of a WW II era heroine (again, if it was actually 82 years ago and not 60). And the others have kid that play roles, too. I still can't figure out how they are making WWII only 60 years ago - it seems unnecessarily confusing and doomed to failure if they are actually doing it. Which I'm not sure of, because we must be missing some key info on this timeline to make it make sense. But anyway, the issue comes down to whether non-time-skip characters are being pegged to WWII and the progression of time. If their histories don't make sense in a few years after whatever-makes-them-make-sense-now is applied, then they have to rewritten. And if they are, Diana is likely rewritten, too.
I've said before that Diana's original origin being tied to WW II has historically been a hurdle for the character, and I think this is just going to make it worse.
[QUOTE=Tzigone;4615441]
I've said before that Diana's original origin being tied to WW II has historically been a hurdle for the character, and I think this is just going to make it worse.[/QUOTE]
It's frustrating that most superheroes have since gotten updated, contemporary versions of their origin story and yet WW is still inexplicably stuck with WWII. The WWII setting is just not necessary or relevant anymore, there have been origin stories that have nothing to do with any war and work just fine (Smallville, Year One). They could've easily had Steve Trevor crash-land on Themyscira but instead of telling her about a world war raging in the outside world he could just be like, "hey, we're fighting an alien invasion, we could really use a hand," or they could just have the Amazons interpret his arrival as a sign from the gods that Themyscira must not remain closed off from the rest of the world anymore and they must choose a champion, an ambassador to be their bridge to the World of Men. Seriously, there are so many ways to tweak Diana's origin story so that all the basic components are still there but without the outdated, unnecessary WWII setting. It's like DC refuses to even make an effort and instead is just retreading the same worn-out territory over and over again.
[QUOTE=TheAnn;4615594]It's frustrating that most superheroes have since gotten updated, contemporary versions of their origin story and yet WW is still inexplicably stuck with WWII. The WWII setting is just not necessary or relevant anymore, there have been origin stories that have nothing to do with any war and work just fine (Smallville, Year One). They could've easily had Steve Trevor crash-land on Themyscira but instead of telling her about a world war raging in the outside world he could just be like, "hey, we're fighting an alien invasion, we could really use a hand," or they could just have the Amazons interpret his arrival as a sign from the gods that Themyscira must not remain closed off from the rest of the world anymore and they must choose a champion, an ambassador to be their bridge to the World of Men. Seriously, there are so many ways to tweak Diana's origin story so that all the basic components are still there but without the outdated, unnecessary WWII setting. It's like DC refuses to even make an effort and instead is just retreading the same worn-out territory over and over again.[/QUOTE]
Uhhm, the Post-Crisis origin has nothing to do with World War II nor does Rebirth's. They're both updated and contemporary.
Didn't' Marvel try something like this recently? I don't know if they established a whole new timeline, but Jane Foster became Thor, Falcon becomes Captain America, female Wolverine, etc...If I remember it correctly, there was a huge backlash & everything is pretty much to status quo again.
[QUOTE=Koriand'r;4615788]Uhhm, the Post-Crisis origin has nothing to do with World War II nor does Rebirth's. They're both updated and contemporary.[/QUOTE]
True. I'm honestly not sure if going back is a movie-similarity (not really same, but you know, in flavor of a the movie was for the original origin) or just wanting a Trinity member there. I've said before I like the three roughly the same in hero experience (so post-COIE bugged me in that regard), but it's not a deal-breaker.
I just don't get this timeline. I can get going back to WWII, even if I'd prefer the JSA on another earth if they're previous gen [i]and[/i] I don't think they need to be WWII-era anyway. But why not just start WWII era then instead of this "60 year" thing? They're nearly as too-old-to-work at 85 as they are at 107 and the same shenanigan will be need to make them still working as heroes.
I don't like a non-aging Clark with Lois not there from day one of Superman. But either compress it to a reasonable age - make it "x years ago" (if Superman has Jon, anywhere from 35-45 years ago and accept several events have changed with the earlier-in-life marriage and parenthood) or actually make WW II era and do all the things I don't like with Superman by having him and Wonder Woman way older than Lois and Bruce. I can't really see them having WW exist in 1938 and Clark not until later. If he's not significant, then use 1939-1941, when many of the JSA debuted. Or go sort of the post-COIE route and have all three trinity debut as second-gen.
I think tying to WWII time frame is mistake. It left Diana in a lurch through much of the silver age in that her old origin/setting didn't really work as well anymore. And now they won't stick to an origin, because only an original origin holds enough weight, I guess.
I do, however, think there's some important piece of information in regards to this timeline that we don't have, since it doesn't make sense as-is.
[QUOTE=Koriand'r;4615788]Uhhm, the Post-Crisis origin has nothing to do with World War II nor does Rebirth's. They're both updated and contemporary.[/QUOTE]
Yes (I mentioned Year One in my post didn’t I?) and now they’ve reverted back to the WWII origin. Doesn’t matter that we managed to break away from that a couple times, somehow her origin always ties back to WWII in some form or another. Despite everything it still has staying power. Out of all superheroes, hers is the only origin story where adaptations will still dredge up the war thing no matter in which year they were written. Which was, you know, my original point. I wasn’t trying to argue that ALL WW origin stories have involved WWII, which is obviously neither true nor the point here.
Like, I was literally arguing that WW doesn’t need the WWII origin back because some stories have had her completely disconnected from WWII and they worked just fine.
[quote]now they’ve reverted back to the WWII origin. Doesn’t matter that we managed to break away from that a couple times, somehow her origin always ties back to WWII in some form or another.[/quote]Because it's the "true" origin, the original. That usually holds some weight. And then there's nostalgia. I agree with you it should go, though.
[quote]Yes (I mentioned Year One in my post didn’t I?) and now they’ve reverted back to the WWII origin. Doesn’t matter that we managed to break away from that a couple times, somehow her origin always ties back to WWII in some form or another. Despite everything it still has staying power. Out of all superheroes, hers is the only origin story where adaptations will still dredge up the war thing no matter in which year they were written. [/quote]Well, I mean Captain America...but he's Marvel. I think Magneto has been de-aged to keep his at some point (and it wasn't even there from day 1)? He's Mavel, too, though.
What other superheroes had a WWII-based (not just happening during the era, but involved the war) origin that moved on from such an origin? Genuine curiosity on that.