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[QUOTE=Doctor Bifrost;5087468](A) No. Steve Trevor. And there's been others over the years. Diana just doesn't have a stable supporting cast.[/QUOTE]
Ferdinand is also pretty popular, and as far as I've seen he's heterosexual.
[QUOTE=Mel Dyer;5086357]Are the [B]only males,[/B] welcome (by fans) into the Wonder Woman family ..to be LGBTQA males? When it comes to Wonder-fans, is [I]all[/I] masculinity taken for [B][COLOR="#008000"]toxic[/COLOR][/B] masculinity?[/QUOTE]
Seriously, Mel Dyer. What a silly, silly question. Especially when the quote you're referring to (from yourself) states that LGBT+ characters haven't been very successful in the past in the Wonder Woman universe.
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[QUOTE=Nyssane;5095794]Ferdinand is also pretty popular, and as far as I've seen he's heterosexual...Mel Dyer. What a silly, silly question. Especially when the quote you're referring to (from yourself) states that LGBT+ characters haven't been very successful in the past in the Wonder Woman universe.[/QUOTE]
The WW comic typically has such poor illustrations of masculinity. I think I've given up on ever seeing Diana played off a male lead, straight or LGBTQA, ..who doesn't make me [COLOR="#008000"][B]sick.[/B][/COLOR]
That said, when it comes to building a Wonder Woman family, I think we have to follow the Bat and Super models. Superhero families are typically made up of heroic companions, who express something that the leading character cannot. The younger or kid sister figure, who needs the lead hero's guidance - Cassie or Batgirl? The mother and counsel to the hero, like a Ben Kenobi or Merlin - the Queen? A wild, bad-behaving sister figure - Artemis, Nubia or Huntress? A purple Rottweiler, super-canine companion, in a green cape, like Hippolyta's in the 1950s? The sibling or trusted friend, who expresses the lead's superheroics, ..but, in a masculine or feminine way, the lead's gender does not allow - the Olympian ..or Catwoman.
We must ask ourselves what or who do Wonder Woman's stories need? What role would the characters in a Wonder Family play, which compliment Diana?
One reason I would like to see Mala join her in Man's World is because I think it woudl be interesting to see Diana be the darker, more assertive figure in a friendship, with another woman. Mala has typically been the more optimistic of the two. It would be interesting to see Mala be Diana's light, when she needs it, ..and in a way that Etta, edgy Artemis or her mother, Queen of the Amazons, ..cannot.
Anyway, ..Etta, Donna, Artemis, the Queen, Steve Trevor, heroic Perez Hercules, Wonder Dog...good start!
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[QUOTE=Mel Dyer;5099485]The WW comic typically has such poor illustrations of masculinity. I think I've given up on ever seeing Diana played off a male lead, straight or LGBTQA, ..who doesn't make me [COLOR="#008000"][B]sick.[/B][/COLOR]
That said, when it comes to building a Wonder Woman family, I think we have to follow the Bat and Super models. Superhero families are typically made up of heroic companions, who express something that the leading character cannot. The younger or kid sister figure, who needs the lead hero's guidance - Cassie or Batgirl? The mother and counsel to the hero, like a Ben Kenobi or Merlin - the Queen? A wild, bad-behaving sister figure - Artemis, Nubia or Huntress? A purple Rottweiler, super-canine companion, in a green cape, like Hippolyta's in the 1950s? The sibling or trusted friend, who expresses the lead's superheroics, ..but, in a masculine or feminine way, the lead's gender does not allow - the Olympian ..or Catwoman.
We must ask ourselves what or who do Wonder Woman's stories need? What role would the characters in a Wonder Family play, which compliment Diana?
One reason I would like to see Mala join her in Man's World is because I think it woudl be interesting to see Diana be the darker, more assertive figure in a friendship, with another woman. Mala has typically been the more optimistic of the two. It would be interesting to see Mala be Diana's light, when she needs it, ..and in a way that Etta, edgy Artemis or her mother, Queen of the Amazons, ..cannot.
Anyway, ..Etta, Donna, Artemis, the Queen, Steve Trevor, heroic Perez Hercules, Wonder Dog...good start![/QUOTE]
What exactly is your idea of good portrayals of masculinity? Because often it seems any male character who doesn't act like some panty-dropping casanova whom men want to be and women want to be with is considered a bad male character.
We've seen male character presented as heroic, sympathetic figures with good relationships with Diana, romantic or otherwise. I would think that would be enough. Hell, we've gotten more focus on Diana's relationship with Steve in the past four or so years than that of her mother, her sister, her sidekick or almost any of the other female characters she's had over the decades
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[QUOTE=Agent Z;5100700]What exactly is your idea of good portrayals of masculinity? Because often it seems any male character who doesn't act like some panty-dropping casanova whom men want to be and women want to be with is considered a bad male character.
We've seen male character presented as heroic, sympathetic figures with good relationships with Diana, romantic or otherwise. I would think that would be enough. Hell, we've gotten more focus on Diana's relationship with Steve in the past four or so years than that of her mother, her sister, her sidekick or almost any of the other female characters she's had over the decades[/QUOTE]
Lois Lane climbs in and out of giant, alien cheese-graters, with no care for what harm Superman will endure to save her, ..and all for a news story. She is a sexy, ambitious, fiercely independent, entirely absurd character, ..but, what a woman!
Steve Trevor, by comparison, isn't a portrait of masculinity, in any way. He's been completely defined by his relationship to Wonder Woman, since the Golden Age. He follows her around, like a little dog...like an accessory. He doesn't even have enough oumf to occasionally be a smartass or make an off-color joke. A man would never be content, with such a droll existence! He may as well be a bloody handbag.
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[QUOTE=Mel Dyer;5101494]Lois climbs in and out of giant, alien cheese-graters, with no care for what harm Superman will endure to save her. She is a fiercely independent, entirely absurd character, ..but, what a woman!
Steve Trevor, by comparison, isn't a portrait of masculinity, in any way. He's been completely defined by his relationship to Wonder Woman, since the Golden Age. He may as well be a bloody handbag.[/QUOTE]
I'm sorry but this is a very narrow-minded and outdated view of masculinity. And Steve does just as many absurd things as Lois. There is nothing inherently masculine about Lois does if that is what you are implying.
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[QUOTE=Agent Z;5101509]I'm sorry but this is a very narrow-minded and outdated view of masculinity. And Steve does just as many absurd things as Lois. There is nothing inherently masculine about Lois does if that is what you are implying.[/QUOTE]
I think you have a very narrow-minded view of my view.
I don't think most men feel represented, by Steve Trevor, because, since the 50s, he's been the comic equivalent of a Ken doll. Steve Trevor is not written with sufficient independence or forcefulness, like a [B]Wolverine, Batman[/B] or [B]Orion,[/B] for most little boys to want to be him, ..or for grown men to have wanted to be him, when they were little boys - even with his magic girlfriend, Wonder Woman.
I just don't know any men and, when I was a boy, never met any other boys, who wanted to be Steve Trevor for any time, longer, than it would take ..to be deflowered by Wonder Woman. Guys generally don't feel represented by Steve ..or want to be him, for more than a few hours, in a room with his girlfriend. Sorry, but, it's true.
As I've said before, I think the modern model for Steve Trevor should be [B]Willie Garvin,[/B] aide-de-camp and sublimely flirty companion of another comic action heroine, ..Modesty Blaise. Steve, while certainly having a strong attraction to Diana, should be a guy, whose skills, government access and character warrant her enlisting his aid, on her missions. As with Modesty and Willie, I think Wonder Woman should keep him around - enlist his aid, etc - because of what he can do, ..and NOT just because she's sweet on him. I also think, while sharing a special friendship with her, Steve should be one of a small circle of skilled friends and loyalists, male and female, who regularly join Diana on her adventures - ala, Doc Savage's Fabulous Five.
Historically, it's done no good to bring Willie up, because I can't get enough of our community to look him up or [URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Willie_Garvin"]read his Wiki.[/URL] Same with the Fab Five...can't get anybody to [URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doc_Savage"]read the Wiki![/URL]
Anyway, our fellow postors [I]sa-aay[/I] they welcome independent, assertive men, who challenge Diana, or generally aren't too impressed, with her, being in the Wonder Woman family ..I believe them.
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[QUOTE=Mel Dyer;5101812]I think you have a very narrow-minded view of my view.
I don't think most men feel represented, by Steve Trevor, because, since the 50s, he's been the comic equivalent of a Ken doll. Steve Trevor is not written with sufficient independence or forcefulness, like a [B]Wolverine, Batman[/B] or [B]Orion,[/B] for most little boys to want to be him, ..or for grown men to have wanted to be him, when they were little boys - even with his magic girlfriend, Wonder Woman.
I just don't know any men and, when I was a boy, never met any other boys, who wanted to be Steve Trevor for any time, longer, than it would take ..to be deflowered by Wonder Woman. Guys generally don't feel represented by Steve ..or want to be him, for more than a few hours, in a room with his girlfriend. Sorry, but, it's true.
As I've said before, I think the modern model for Steve Trevor should be [B]Willie Garvin,[/B] aide-de-camp and sublimely flirty companion of another comic action heroine, ..Modesty Blaise. Steve, while certainly having a strong attraction to Diana, should be a guy, whose skills, government access and character warrant her enlisting his aid, on her missions. As with Modesty and Willie, I think Wonder Woman should keep him around - enlist his aid, etc - because of what he can do, ..and NOT just because she's sweet on him. I also think, while sharing a special friendship with her, Steve should be one of a small circle of skilled friends and loyalists, male and female, who regularly join Diana on her adventures - ala, Doc Savage's Fabulous Five.
Historically, it's done no good to bring Willie up, because I can't get enough of our community to look him up or [URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Willie_Garvin"]read his Wiki.[/URL] Same with the Fab Five...can't get anybody to [URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doc_Savage"]read the Wiki![/URL]
Anyway, our fellow postors [I]sa-aay[/I] they welcome independent, assertive men, who challenge Diana, or generally aren't too impressed, with her, being in the Wonder Woman family ..I believe them.[/QUOTE]
Steve should be joined by Ferdinand, I Ching, Perez Hercules, her cousin Prince Hippolytos [Paul Lighthouse?], the heroes of Thalarion ..and Mister Genie. Terminally perfect Steve should not be the definitive male in the Wonderverse.
And what about the dog? Anybody here against Diana having a dog or Zephyr the Wonder Bird? I think she should've had one, years ago.
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[QUOTE=Mel Dyer;5101812]I think you have a very narrow-minded view of my view.
I don't think most men feel represented, by Steve Trevor, because, since the 50s, he's been the comic equivalent of a Ken doll. Steve Trevor is not written with sufficient independence or forcefulness, like a [B]Wolverine, Batman[/B] or [B]Orion,[/B] for most little boys to want to be him, ..or for grown men to have wanted to be him, when they were little boys - even with his magic girlfriend, Wonder Woman.
I just don't know any men and, when I was a boy, never met any other boys, who wanted to be Steve Trevor for any time, longer, than it would take ..to be deflowered by Wonder Woman. Guys generally don't feel represented by Steve ..or want to be him, for more than a few hours, in a room with his girlfriend. Sorry, but, it's true.
As I've said before, I think the modern model for Steve Trevor should be [B]Willie Garvin,[/B] aide-de-camp and sublimely flirty companion of another comic action heroine, ..Modesty Blaise. Steve, while certainly having a strong attraction to Diana, should be a guy, whose skills, government access and character warrant her enlisting his aid, on her missions. As with Modesty and Willie, I think Wonder Woman should keep him around - enlist his aid, etc - because of what he can do, ..and NOT just because she's sweet on him. I also think, while sharing a special friendship with her, Steve should be one of a small circle of skilled friends and loyalists, male and female, who regularly join Diana on her adventures - ala, Doc Savage's Fabulous Five.
Historically, it's done no good to bring Willie up, because I can't get enough of our community to look him up or [URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Willie_Garvin"]read his Wiki.[/URL] Same with the Fab Five...can't get anybody to [URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doc_Savage"]read the Wiki![/URL]
Anyway, our fellow postors [I]sa-aay[/I] they welcome independent, assertive men, who challenge Diana, or generally aren't too impressed, with her, being in the Wonder Woman family ..I believe them.[/QUOTE]
Wolverine and Batman aren't good examples to compare to Steve since they're main leads of their own franchises whereas Steve was designed and largely exists as a supporting character. And tbh, those three are near the bottom of the list of characters who should Steve should be modeled after.
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[QUOTE=Gaius;5104529]Wolverine and Batman aren't good examples to compare to Steve since they're main leads of their own franchises whereas Steve was designed and largely exists as a supporting character. And tbh, those three are near the bottom of the list of characters who should Steve should be modeled after.[/QUOTE]
I think we can agree that Steve should be in the Wonder Family, in some fashion. Now, would I have him descended from an ancient line of demons or something equally sinister that he's running away from, ..with 'Steve Trevor' not even being his real name? Of course, I would. I still think he should be an important member of the Wonder family.
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I guess my Wonderfam is a bit long so, I'll try to categorize it. Diana is obviously in the Fam so I'm excluding her for this list.
[B][U]Blood Family[/U][/B]
Hippolyta - Diana's mother, 10th amazon queen
Atalanta - Diana's aunt, founder of the Bana
Antiope - Diana's aunt, 2nd general of the amazons
Melanippe - Diana's aunt, amazon star explorer
Donna Troy (Troia) - Diana's blood sister, sculpted at the same time as Diana by Hippolyta
[B][U]Romantic Interest[/U][/B]
Steve Trevor - ARGUS commando, special unit leader
[B][U]Protégés[/U][/B]
Cassie Sandsmark - Wonder Girl
Miles Prince - Wonder boy, Steve and Diana's son
[B][U]Fellow Wonder Women[/U][/B]
Nubia - the new Shimtar, wielder of the bow of Ra, champion of the Bana in Egypt
Maria Mendoza - Wielder of Manco Capac's staff, champion of the South American amazon tribe
Peng Delian - China's green serpent guardian, dragon shape sifter, champion of a small amazon tribe in China
[B][U]Animal Allies[/U][/B]
Jumpa - alien kanga from a destroyed planet, (amazons star explorers brought the species to Paradise island)
Fang - a dire wolf with enhanced abilities and intellect, used primarily by Wonder boy
Swiftmaw - one of the Megalodons that guard Themiscyra
Aetos - the golden eagle of Zeus, follows Wonder Woman everywhere, her messenger to the gods
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[B][U]WONDER WOMAN[/U][/B]
Wonder Woman
Donna Troy (Actually a younger version of Wonder Woman)
Wonder Tot (Actually a younger version of Donna Troy)
Wondergirl (Not blood relative of Wonder Woman, just some protege)
[B][U]WIVES[/U][/B]
Cheetah (Red-hair)
Medusa (Cute snake girl)
[B][U]AMOZINS[/U][/B]
Hipolyta (Not a blood mother of Wonder Woman)
Amazons that are actually Wonder Woman's equal and not red shirts. Instead of being the best at everything, how about WW is just the all around best?
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[QUOTE=Pinsir;5107248][B][U]WONDER WOMAN[/U][/B]
Instead of being the best at everything, how about WW is just the all around best?[/QUOTE]
What's the difference?
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Diana
Donna Troy (young girl rescued from a fire early in Diana's career, raised on Themyscira when it's revealed she has Titan heritage.)
Cassie (Kapatelis and Sandsmark families made into one, gets her powers from magical items/ancient artifacts)
Artemis
[B]Main supporting cast: [/B]
Steve Trevor (movie version)
Etta Candy ([I]Legend of Wonder Woman[/I]
General Darnell (re-imagined new head of Argus)
Ferdinand
Giganta (redeemed villain)
Vanessa and Julia
[B]The Amazons[/B]
Hippolyta
Philippus
Nubia (Philippus' daughter)
Io
Mala
etc
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[QUOTE=Agent Z;5107255]What's the difference?[/QUOTE]
Here are some examples;
>>> Esma: Most powerful Amazon, with big beefy arms. Stronger than Wonder Woman.
>>> Melisa: Most skilled archer of the Amazons. Better at shooting things than Wonder Woman.
>>> Fatma: Fastest of the Amazons......
Obviously Wonder Woman gains her powers through Amazons training, none of that divine parentage or divine gifts stuff so all amazons are on an equal footing. Also, all Amazons will be Turkish/ Middle Eastern now too, no more boring faux ancient Greek art.
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I'd also bring back Lyta Milton and make her the main universe version of Fury.