Why REBIRTH failed and how it may ultimately lead to the end of DC as we know it

[QUOTE=Myskin;5114182]This.
We are on a fan forum, so I've come to expect it, but I am always somehow astonished at how easily people theorize about the supposed groups at struggle with each other BTS even if it's the type of info nobody ever comes to know for certain.
It's quite likely that both Didio and Johns share an entrepreneurial vision of what DC should be, rather than a creative one. It's a product that they have to sell. Their mindset has little in common with what the fans think or want to think. The main problem with Rebirth - as with New52 - was that no one had a longtime plan for what to do with it.
I'd also say that yes, Doomsday Clock's problematic delays created a lot of problems in terms of what was in continuity and what not. However, even if every single issue had been released as planned, I doubt that the situation would have changed. There is nothing in Doomsday Clock which gives the readers a strong, clear, definitive direction for the DCU.[/QUOTE]

Ultimately, what any form of entertainment is selling is emotion. What the product makes you feel. So...even if that's how you view it, you still need to figure out not only the emotions, (in this case inspired by story beats), you want people to feel at various points in the story. At best, you want to make it a rollercoaster ride for their emotions, one that leaves them satisfied, not exhausted, and wanting more. Then you need to figure out how to accomplish that, and I don't think folks at DC have been paying much attention to that either. And of course, overall, how do you want the product, whether its a single story, an arc, or an entire reboot; to make you feel? Uplifted? Hopeful? Depressed? Sad? Angry? In other words, what kind of story or stories are they? I don't think DC does much of that sort of question and answer thinking.

Whole things been a shambles for a decade.

Have one of your most successful years of 21st century but then reboot the next year with 'a new continuity' then abandon that 2 years later for story over continuity with dcyou then abandon that to reboot with another continuity but have yr book explaining it suffer huge delays then seemingly abandon that for another relaunch but abandon that before you launch it (if rumours are true) then seemingly be headed towards another relaunch.

I dont think its any one thing thats been a success it failure, its just been wild shifts mandated from all over the place for a decade within different factions of the company.

Continually dicking around like this and readers will just get sick of it.

I dont even know what they expect from a pamphlet business. You have the same physical sales as 20 years ago but in the meantime youve cannibalized your monthly sales with digital and trading everything. Its not going to be 1994 again. This is as good as its going to get so stop trying to continually mess around with it, burning up cash to milk another few million pamphlet sales when you could spend yr time going after new demographics and other media.

They cant even use any of their events as movies because its just continually correcting the complicated underpinnings and who knows what they even are beyond heavy DC heads

The problem with Rebirth is that no one knew what it was supposed to be. Even Johns. It was DC trying to recapture some of their lost momentum by saying that the erased history that the fans loved was coming back, but no one knew what that meant or how to implement it. Which is why it fizzled out so quickly. You still had stories that directly conflicted with each other, and writers were left doing their own thing that was supposed to be a retelling of the erased history that the fans wanted back but it wasn't exactly the same as the old stories. It was a gigantic mess. Doomsday Clock being delayed didn't help, but the Rebirth problems were so beyond that series I really don't know what DC could have done. If you look at the sales, and even trade sales, of the Rebirth titles they really started bottoming out fast and that was with DC shipping 2 copies of all their biggest titles twice per month. Maybe that is why it burned out so quickly because they were going through so many issues of their big titles in such a short time.

The problem is that Dan DiBio and Geoff Johns wanted "a one tone to fits all for DC" and it doesn't work that way.

The New 52 was an attempt to make everybody in the DCU more like Batman.
Rebirth was an attempt to make everybody in the DCU more like Superman.

Characters like Superman, The Flash, Wonder Woman, and Aquaman work better in a more hopeful and optimistic way, while characters like Batman, Green Arrow, John Constantine, and the Suicide Squad work better in a more cynical and pessimistic way.

That is not to say you can do a cynical and pessimistic Superman story and/or a hopeful and optimistic Batman story but those should be very done by the best writers who know how to handle those kind characters in those kind of stories. There was no room for creators to find the proper tones for some characters and teams that can go either way.

Johns' inability to make the deadlines for [i]Doomsday Clock[/i] and the mixed reception for [i]Heroes in Crisis[/i] didn't help.

DC has this strange thing where they overthink things way too much but don’t put enough thought into things at the same time.

[QUOTE=Badou;5114609]The problem with Rebirth is that no one knew what it was supposed to be. Even Johns. It was DC trying to recapture some of their lost momentum by[B] saying that the erased history that the fans loved was coming back[/B], but no one knew what that meant or how to implement it. Which is why it fizzled out so quickly. You still had stories that directly conflicted with each other, and writers were left doing their own thing that was supposed to be a retelling of the erased history that the fans wanted back but it wasn't exactly the same as the old stories. It was a gigantic mess. Doomsday Clock being delayed didn't help, but the Rebirth problems were so beyond that series I really don't know what DC could have done. If you look at the sales, and even trade sales, of the Rebirth titles they really started bottoming out fast and that was with DC shipping 2 copies of all their biggest titles twice per month. Maybe that is why it burned out so quickly because they were going through so many issues of their big titles in such a short time.[/QUOTE]

They never said that. The story never said that. The only people who said that were click-bait sites and readers who had been campaigning for the New 52 to roll back since day 1.

I loved Rebirth. I loved the change in stories that were inspired by it. Sure, there were wrinkles here and there, but there always has been and always will be. Nothing was an issue unless someone was trying to figure out how it was going to bring back the missing years.

In my opinion, if there was some event it was leading up to, it was going to be character driven, not continuity driven. The characters, inspired by Wally and maybe other like the JSA and Legion, were going to recreate in the now what Dr Manhattan took away with his changes. Proving that the heart of the DCU was always there, and always could be. Sappy stuff. Rolling back continuity would be a disaster. Most of the complaints in this thread are about 'reboots'.

So no one in the thread has established the idea that DC Comics as we know it is coming to an end. Besides the organizational restructuring and staff cuts that were reported last week (about which we have been given very little in the way of details), does anybody have any evidence as to why they believe that? Does the topic creator have any reason that he believes that? It seems like it's rumor based.

[QUOTE=cranger;5114718]They never said that. The story never said that. The only people who said that were click-bait sites and readers who had been campaigning for the New 52 to roll back since day 1.

I loved Rebirth. I loved the change in stories that were inspired by it. Sure, there were wrinkles here and there, but there always has been and always will be. Nothing was an issue unless someone was trying to figure out how it was going to bring back the missing years.

In my opinion, if there was some event it was leading up to, it was going to be character driven, not continuity driven. The characters, inspired by Wally and maybe other like the JSA and Legion, were going to recreate in the now what Dr Manhattan took away with his changes. Proving that the heart of the DCU was always there, and always could be. Sappy stuff. Rolling back continuity would be a disaster. Most of the complaints in this thread are about 'reboots'.[/QUOTE]

The whole point of Rebirth was basically to try and write a story in canon that explained why so much of DC's history was erased and Rebirth was going to add back that history, but no one at DC knew what that meant. It ended up becoming a giant mess and writers were left on their own to figure it out. So yes, they did say that erased history was coming back, but I (and DC too) never said that the pre-New 52 canon was going to come back as it was. Just that the history was going to come back. Like the original Titans or the JSA. In the next part of my post I explained that what Rebirth in part ended up being was a retelling of that pre-New 52 history that the fans wanted back, but it wasn't the same as the pre-New 52 stories. It became confusing, especially when you also have characters like Wally and Superman be fully aware and have their memories of the old pre-New 52 canon that are also story points in their ongoing stories.

A good example is the Titans series. Rebirth gave Dick's Titans their history back which got erased with the New 52. It now established that they were a team that formed when they were teens just like the Pre-New 52 team, but no one knew what that meant. No one knew who all was part of this now reestablished history or what stories were part of it. So the writers were left trying to figure it out. So we ended up getting a story like Lazarus Contract which was them trying to retell how the Judas Contract story happened in this new messy New 52/Rebirth continuity that no one clearly understood. So it is DC bringing back their erased history, but also completely rewriting it.

Speculation on my part, but...

Rebirth failed for the same reason why every DiDio-led initiative failed -- DiDio seems to have a bad case of ADD and can't really stay excited about any idea for too long.

Remember, comics work quite awhile in advance of our reading them, so any new initiative like New 52 or Rebirth was in the planning stages probably a year before it was published. So, by the time all the planning was over, and it was out there in the real world, he quickly grew tired of it and needed that jolt that comes from planning the next big thing.

This is the case even with radical changes of direction with specific characters:
- Donna Troy is the New Harbinger -- until she's not
- Kyle Rayner is the all-powerful Ion -- until the miniseries is over, then he's back to his old self again

It seems like Wally West is having his turn at radical change of direction every time he's in a new project.

I'm sure there are other examples.

[QUOTE=skyvolt2000;5114343]That happens when you take what was good away.

Did Cyborg really need to be in Justice League to be Batman's bus and Internet? Or could an effort to make him more than Daddy hates me and man vs machine stories work better?

Did Static need to go to Harlem and get a clone sister?

Did Green Arrow and Black Lightning really need to lose their kids-so Batman and Superman could looker OLDER with tweeners?

Hawkman is still a mess.

Did we need 4 more Green Lanterns?

[B]Who was messed up so bad that New 52 was needed? So messed up NOT because of guys like Dan but other reasons.
[/B]
Wonder Twins nor Mr Miracle needed Rebirth.[/QUOTE]
Hmmm. I would say the characters that actually benefitted from the reboot were:
Superman
Wonder Woman
Aquaman
Supergirl
Red Hood
Justice League
And a bunch of C-Listers actually got a push during the New 52 like Resurrection Man and Jonah Hex. But the entire Titans/TT generation got completely screwed over, a ton of POC characters got dumped, and DC’s two longest running and most successful series (Morrison Batman and Johns GL) got completely screwed over.

[QUOTE=Vordan;5114936]Hmmm. I would say the characters that actually benefitted from the reboot were:
Superman
Wonder Woman
Aquaman
Supergirl
Red Hood
Justice League
And a bunch of C-Listers actually got a push during the New 52 like Resurrection Man and Jonah Hex. But the entire Titans/TT generation got completely screwed over, a ton of POC characters got dumped, and DC’s two longest running and most successful series (Morrison Batman and Johns GL) got completely screwed over.[/QUOTE]

I'm nor sure if i would include Jonah Hex there, before the reboot the Palmiotti/Gray run reached 70 issues, after the New 52 the continued as usual but with another title (All Star Western) and a half hearted attempt to tied with the Court of Owls. Far i know thought, Hex hasn't appeared on anything since 2014. Thougth i guest that you could argue that he recieved a good sale boost with the reboot?.

[QUOTE=skyvolt2000;5114343]Who was messed up so bad that New 52 was needed? [/QUOTE]At least imo there were a lot of really bad changes in the last 5 or so years before rebirth, where I'm glad that it was erased (Cry for Justice for example).

With the reboot they could bring back characters that got killed and set others back to their classic status quo.

The execution in the new 52 was flawed, but the idea of continuing with the status quo they had directly before the reboot is something that sounds even less exciting to me.

[QUOTE=kingaliencracker;5113290]So I want to preface this conversation by stating that I do believe DC Comics will survive in some capacity. I think it will be more in the line of adapted media, OGNs, and special series, and less monthlies. But they will endure because there's still too much money to be made in IPs that AT&T won't reject outright

Having said that, I do want to talk about the failure of REBIRTH and how (IMO) its failure has pushed DC to the brink. Many DC fans will likely point to NEW 52 as this catalyst event but DC not only seemingly solved the issues created by NEW 52 with REBIRTH but had garnered much fanfare and momentum with the initial one-shot. I freely admit Geoff John's REBIRTH special is still my favorite comic book from 2010-2019, and through today.

So what went wrong?

For starters, DC waited far too long to get Doomsday Clock rolling, and then that series itself was plagued with delays throughout its publication. What should have been a major story in DC's history instead turned into a message board joke, and DC chose to push Heroes in Crisis and Metal in its place. Further, the hints placed in the REBIRTH special that were picked up in other titles (such as Flash, Superman, Titans, etc.) were dragged out and then eventually dropped or dramatically changed once it was clear DC lost interest in Doomsday Clock. Upon its conclusion, the series essentially has no relevance to the current DC status quo.

Second, it's quite obvious Didio hated, hated, hated (did I say hate?) the very notion of REBIRTH. While he has admitted to poor planning leading to issues with NEW 52, he has openly called out any success that REBIRTH experienced as strictly nostalgia based and has stood stead-fast in his belief that while NEW 52 ultimately failed, it was a much more fulfilling experience for him than REBIRTH ever was. It's hard to push a company-wide initiative designed to reestablish faith from the fan base when the guy in charge detests said initiative.

Third (and somewhat directly tied to the previous point), because Didio fell out of favor with Rebirth as quickly as it was published, he decided to change course again by developing 5G behind the scenes. This initiative, hinted at and rumored about for almost a year now, was to drastically alter the DC timeline and replace long-time heroes with replacements. DC got some of these elements off the ground before those behind-the-scenes began sabotaging it by anonymously reporting how terrible and disorganized the whole premise was. Eventually these reports coupled with other prevalent problems with editorial lead to Didio's ousting from DC. This had a domino effect where those who were less-than-passionate about Didio's traditionalist mindset with the direct market were now having DC break away from Diamond, which in turn caused many of the few remaining comic book stores around the country to shutter (in addition to the pandemic), which further cut into DC's profit margin and lead to massive layoffs in addition to rumors of the end of monthly periodicals coming down the pipeline.

Yes...I understand the third point may be deriving too much from REBIRTH's failure especially given the pandemic but I believe had DC had faith in REBIRTH and put its full energy into it, they may have had enough good grace with fans today that Didio may still be in charge. Then again, you have fans who will state that REBIRTH had no chance for success in the bubble of NEW 52, and that the only way DC could have actually fixed things was to completely undo NEW 52.

Anyway, I'm curious to hear some of your thoughts regarding all of this. I probably went on a much longer rant than I expected but this has been burning on my mind for a while now.[/QUOTE]

Sounds solid. Can only speak for myself of course. But n52 never really catched my interest until after Rebirth which I went in full steam ahead buying almost everything of. And even then I only picked a few n52 stories that seemed critical to me in the bigger scope (i.e. Darkseid war). As soon as I had the feeling they dropped the ball on Rebirth (around Superman Reborn for me) I started to become less invested; finishing some series just for conclusion, habbit or because they where about to be finished anyway. By now I'm back at buying more backissues from about '85 (sometimes even older) till Flashpoint than modern books. They cant even finish a proper crisis (even if they don't call them that anymore) and let it sink in before having 2 other do-overs running/announced. No thanks.

To me... The reason why Rebirth fails is that Rebirth is only a nostalgia cash grab. I mean, the return of Wally or JSA after the reboot. A one-shot that seemingly said that we are sorry to disappoint you with New52 and here you got what you love now. Superman suddenly had family for no reason. Batfamily prominent for the first arc. Titan. It's just pure cash grab nostalgia. While I know for the most part nostalgia is a very strong feeling. You want to go back to that era and read and just feels good reading it because you grow up with it. But to me, personally, nostalgia is the worst case for the franchise. It just gave what you want without thinking the story in the long term and as a result it screwed everything. We see it in Teen Titans, Wonder Woman, Justice League, and many more. Though not only that, I don't know what DC Editorial has been smoking or drinking, but cherry-picking continuities are the worst possible move. It makes everything no sense, like the current Flash run that seemingly Barry remember this remember that and then suddenly he forgot this and forgot that, despite the new 52 rebooted EVERYTHING.

But still, that's DC modus operandi. If it's starting to get stale, let's reboot this or reboot that. It doesn't make sense to me and I assume doesn't make sense to readers. I want my Superman good, had a great adventure, had a great superheroic moment, but if you give me something that seems like book of the old and said this is something new then you lost me.

What are the best Rebirth comics? I am in a comic reading mood for the first time since the Covid emerged and am actually willing to give Rebirth a fair shot. The only Rebirth comics I've read are Mister Miracle (which, is an out of continuity story) and the initial Superman run that introduced the Super kid.