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[QUOTE=Kaitou D. Kid;5537962]People with ADHD can still focus, it's just that their brain can't self-regulate their focus like in a neurotypical person. They may hyperfocus on trivial things and not focus as much (or at all) on more important things.
I think Peter shows signs of hyperfocusing when working on his science, and in the way he tends to get lost in his head sometimes and not notice a person talking to him (I remember this happening multiple times in the Lee/Ditko run and at least once in the JMS run).
Since we are on this topic, I wrote a more detailed post about it in another thread. :)
The only thing I would add is that JMS also depicted him as someone who has trouble sleeping at night due to an active mind, which is another ADHD symptom.[/QUOTE]
That post is awesome and really interesting. I don't know much about neurodivergence myself but would love to learn more about this.
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[QUOTE=Revolutionary_Jack;5537975]That post is awesome and really interesting. I don't know much about neurodivergence myself but would love to learn more about this.[/QUOTE]
'Neurodivergence' is just an umbrella term for mental-related deviations from the "norm". It could be anything from having anxiety or a learning disability to something a little more serious like ADHD or being on the autism spectrum.
I say "norm" loosely because it's debatable what that even means, even among experts. I mean, is there really such thing as a fully "neurotypical" person? Some of the things that fall under "neurodivergent" are things that a lot of people, even most people, can potentially have and suffer from, like having anxiety for example. Even in the case of more "serious" deviations like ADHD or lite autism, some say they're significantly underdiagnosed among the general population (I read a study once that 1 in every 5 people might have ADHD, for example... I also have a friend in social work who has read similar studies on autism). That's why I hesitate to just say "Peter is neurodivergent, period" because I don't think that by itself explains much or narrows anything down.
However, I do suspect (again, it depends on the writer and portrayal) that certain versions or takes of Peter might have a mix of ADHD, OCD, and anxiety. I mean, someone on the first page even brought up the similarities between Spider-Man and Shonen anime characters... And Shonen characters like Goku, Luffy, Naruto, and Aang from Avatar have also been suspected of having ADHD by some of their fans before.
I admit some of this could also just be my bias since I suffer from ADHD, OCD, and anxiety, so it's entirely possible I'm just projecting this onto Peter... Then again, I did say 'certain versions' and not all of them (I don't get ADHD vibes from The Spectacular Spider-Man's Peter, for example, even though I love that version as much as 616).
If it's true (and obviously we'll never get a diagnosis cuz Peter Parker isn't real), I don't think it was intentional, kinda like how Arthur Conan Doyle didn't know what Aspergers was but there are still a lot of fan theories that Sherlock Holmes might have it. I think there is a saying for this... "Art teaches us just as much about human psychology as the field of psychology"... Something like that? If certain versions of Peter like the Stan Lee version or the JMS version have ADHD, I think that's what's going on there.
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[QUOTE=PCN24454;5537936]Miles only became friends with Ganke after he joined the academy.[/QUOTE]
I think that's just ITSV. In most interpretations they've been friends since they were really young kids.
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[QUOTE=Kaitou D. Kid;5536230]There are surprisingly a lot of overlaps between Spider-Man and Shonen protagonists, even down to the colors they wear (red and blue). It's probably why he is so popular in Japan.
A lot of Shonen protagonists are also clearly inspired by Spider-Man, such as Deku / Izuku Midoriya.
Which is why I think there is a smidge of truth in the idea that Spider-Man is about youth, but not in the way Quesada thinks. Spider-Man at times can be a kid in an adult body in a good way. It is arguably part of why he is able to connect with younger characters so well even once he is past the teen years himself.
This might be a good time to bring this up, but Peter to me (depending on the writer and portrayal) doesn't always come off neurotypical. I would argue at least Stan Lee's Spider-Man, Bendis', and JMS' all show signs of anxiety and ADHD. That would explain some of the goofing off and talkative attitude, as well as some other stuff like the childhood alienation and the fact he had a harder time maintaning a work-life balance than Miles Morales did at the same age.[/QUOTE]
I really disagree with this. Why? Look at Peter’s job. He has to deal with the Cletus’s, Norman’s and Otto’s of the world. Basically if he messes up at all people die ( see Original Gwen). Not to mention having to maintain a job and going to School ( I worked two jobs and went to college and trust me Finance is not as difficult as Organic Chemistry), this does not even include maintaining a social life ; MJ Felicia etc). I can also tell you that the stress level in certain professions ( like mortgage banking that I did) leads to lots of people becoming drug addicts and or alcoholics. Basically Peter is quite normal and well adjusted considering everything he goes through on a daily basis.
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[QUOTE=NC_Yankee;5538441]I really disagree with this. Why? Look at Peter’s job. He has to deal with the Cletus’s, Norman’s and Otto’s of the world. Basically if he messes up at all people die ( see Original Gwen). Not to mention having to maintain a job and going to School ( I worked two jobs and went to college and trust me Finance is not as difficult as Organic Chemistry), this does not even include maintaining a social life ; MJ Felicia etc). I can also tell you that the stress level in certain professions ( like mortgage banking that I did) leads to lots of people becoming drug addicts and or alcoholics. Basically Peter is quite normal and well adjusted considering everything he goes through on a daily basis.[/QUOTE]
That's a long post you're quoting. Which part do you disagree with?
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[QUOTE=Kaitou D. Kid;5538332]'Neurodivergence' is just an umbrella term for mental-related deviations from the "norm". It could be anything from having anxiety or a learning disability to something a little more serious like ADHD or being on the autism spectrum.
I say "norm" loosely because it's debatable what that even means, even among experts. I mean, is there really such thing as a fully "neurotypical" person? Some of the things that fall under "neurodivergent" are things that a lot of people, even most people, can potentially have and suffer from, like having anxiety for example. Even in the case of more "serious" deviations like ADHD or lite autism, some say they're significantly underdiagnosed among the general population (I read a study once that 1 in every 5 people might have ADHD, for example... I also have a friend in social work who has read similar studies on autism). That's why I hesitate to just say "Peter is neurodivergent, period" because I don't think that by itself explains much or narrows anything down.
However, I do suspect (again, it depends on the writer and portrayal) that certain versions or takes of Peter might have a mix of ADHD, OCD, and anxiety. I mean, someone on the first page even brought up the similarities between Spider-Man and Shonen anime characters... And Shonen characters like Goku, Luffy, Naruto, and Aang from Avatar have also been suspected of having ADHD by some of their fans before.
I admit some of this could also just be my bias since I suffer from ADHD, OCD, and anxiety, so it's entirely possible I'm just projecting this onto Peter... Then again, I did say 'certain versions' and not all of them (I don't get ADHD vibes from The Spectacular Spider-Man's Peter, for example, even though I love that version as much as 616).
If it's true (and obviously we'll never get a diagnosis cuz Peter Parker isn't real), I don't think it was intentional, kinda like how Arthur Conan Doyle didn't know what Aspergers was but there are still a lot of fan theories that Sherlock Holmes might have it. I think there is a saying for this... "Art teaches us just as much about human psychology as the field of psychology"... Something like that? If certain versions of Peter like the Stan Lee version or the JMS version have ADHD, I think that's what's going on there.[/QUOTE]
Thank you for sharing this with us.
I think Tobey's Peter might qualify on the spectrum mostly for how overly passive he is compared to 616 Peter, and his morose tendencies. He struck me as suffering from depression at times but that's mostly because of the high melodrama that Raimi goes for, more than any direct attempt at representing and conveying that.
Mark Waid's Daredevil run ran with the idea that Matt Murdoch was depressed and Waid used his own struggles with depression to put that across, so that's an example of how authors insert experience with that into characters. JMS has also struggled with emotional problems owing to the frankly horrific childhood he had to escape and struggle against, so maybe some of that trauma and vulnerability showed up in his take on Spider-Man.
I know depression and other emotional problems aren't the same as neurodivergent, but just thought I'd add that, if that's okay. So there's definitely something to this.
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[QUOTE=Revolutionary_Jack;5538514]Thank you for sharing this with us.
I think Tobey's Peter might qualify on the spectrum mostly for how overly passive he is compared to 616 Peter, and his morose tendencies. He struck me as suffering from depression at times but that's mostly because of the high melodrama that Raimi goes for, more than any direct attempt at representing and conveying that.
Mark Waid's Daredevil run ran with the idea that Matt Murdoch was depressed and Waid used his own struggles with depression to put that across, so that's an example of how authors insert experience with that into characters. JMS has also struggled with emotional problems owing to the frankly horrific childhood he had to escape and struggle against, so maybe some of that trauma and vulnerability showed up in his take on Spider-Man.
I know depression and other emotional problems aren't the same as neurodivergent, but just thought I'd add that, if that's okay. So there's definitely something to this.[/QUOTE]
I believe that suffering from depression and other emotional problems (i.e. mood disorders or bipolar disorders, for example) fall under the neurodivergence umbrella too, which goes back to my earlier point about how it's too loose of a term and how that binary (neurotypical or neurodivergent) doesn't make much sense and can at worst even be problematic. So the Waid and JMS examples you brought up can count too. This gets into a deeper discussion over what percentage of the population is even "neurotypical", if "neurotypical" people as a whole are even a majority (meaning they would be more than 50% of the population) given what a huge-and-loose umbrella term "neurodivergent" is, and if there really is such a thing as "neurotypical" or "normal" or if it's a concept from a bygone era when mental health and developmental differences were more stigmatized and kept in the closet.
I admit I regret using the word 'neurodivergent' in that post. My point was more that there are some mental health - related themes to Spider-Man that aren't as talked about.
Tobey's Peter being on the spectrum is something I thought about too, but I never gave it much consideration just because I don't know much about autism, to be honest.
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[QUOTE=Kaitou D. Kid;5538541]I admit I regret using the word 'neurodivergent' in that post. My point was more that there are some mental health - related themes to Spider-Man that aren't as talked about.[/quote]
The word neurodivergent is useful because it allows a new non-stigmatized word about mental health.
Superhero Comics have generally been damaging in discussing mental health issues, with the way numerous villains are called lunatics solely because they are bad guys rather than from a clinical perspective.
Recently there's been a growing attempt to deal with mental health by showing heroes affected by it, Tom King does it (a little too much and not too well), and I mentioned Waid, but there are others interested in this, so hopefully we can have maturity discussing this.
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[QUOTE=Revolutionary_Jack;5538576]The word neurodivergent is useful because it allows a new non-stigmatized word about mental health.
Superhero Comics have generally been damaging in discussing mental health issues, with the way numerous villains are called lunatics solely because they are bad guys rather than from a clinical perspective.
Recently there's been a growing attempt to deal with mental health by showing heroes affected by it, Tom King does it (a little too much and not too well), and I mentioned Waid, but there are others interested in this, so hopefully we can have maturity discussing this.[/QUOTE]
Not to mention how mental illness is commonly depicted as making someone predisposed to violent, even murderous criminality, another way in which the mentally ill are stigmatized and demonized by mainstream superhero fiction. That the most (in)famous comic book asylums --- Arkham in DC, Ravencroft in Marvel --- are depicted as utter failures in rehabilitating their patients and are treated more as prisons containing dangerous criminals that "happen" to be mentally ill just adds to that problem.
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[QUOTE=Huntsman Spider;5539087]Not to mention how mental illness is commonly depicted as making someone predisposed to violent, even murderous criminality, another way in which the mentally ill are stigmatized and demonized by mainstream superhero fiction. That the most (in)famous comic book asylums --- Arkham in DC, Ravencroft in Marvel --- are depicted as utter failures in rehabilitating their patients and are treated more as prisons containing dangerous criminals that "happen" to be mentally ill just adds to that problem.[/QUOTE]
That's more due to the nature of comics never actually progressing, isn't it? Not excusing them, but that's part of the problem. If stories had some level of finality, villains could be rehabilitated or at least properly kept in proper care
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[QUOTE=Mik;5539099]That's more due to the nature of comics never actually progressing, isn't it? Not excusing them, but that's part of the problem. If stories had some level of finality, villains could be rehabilitated or at least properly kept in proper care[/QUOTE]
Fair point as well, I'll admit.
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[QUOTE=Revolutionary_Jack;5538576]The word neurodivergent is useful because it allows a new non-stigmatized word about mental health.
Superhero Comics have generally been damaging in discussing mental health issues, with the way numerous villains are called lunatics solely because they are bad guys rather than from a clinical perspective.
Recently there's been a growing attempt to deal with mental health by showing heroes affected by it, Tom King does it (a little too much and not too well), and I mentioned Waid, but there are others interested in this, so hopefully we can have maturity discussing this.[/QUOTE]
I am a neurodivergent with Dyslexia, Dyspraxia, ADHD.
I was in special education in my early childhood years.
I had experience being called "retard" and "stupid"
I had auditory therapy, speech therapy, phonics training, and motor skills therapy to correct my Dyslexic and Dyspraxic weaknesses.
I also have a history of anxiety and depression.
There is a significant symptom/characteristic overlap and co-morbidity between the neurodivergent conditions.
There is a significant co-morbidity that neurodivergence has with mental illness.
I believe in and support The Neurodiversity Movement.
I even created a facebook group, Developmental Neurodiversity Association (DNA which hints at genetic neurodiversity)
I believe that my neurodivergence is strongly connected to my nonconformist nature, ultrasensitivity, and thinking mainly in pictures.
I also have a neurodivergence blog.
[url]https://neurodivergence.blogspot.com/[/url]
I can strongly relate to the concept of Overexcitabilities which are said to be typical of those that are gifted.
I think neurodivergence is like the extreme of overexcitabilities.
Anything that is extreme is considered a problem that needs to be fixed.
[url]https://www.verywellfamily.com/dabrowskis-overexcitabilities-in-gifted-children-1449118[/url]
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[QUOTE=Huntsman Spider;5539102]Fair point as well, I'll admit.[/QUOTE]
You're right about comics not properly dealing with mental illness. They could do a much better job
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[QUOTE=Kaitou D. Kid;5538541]I believe that suffering from depression and other emotional problems (i.e. mood disorders or bipolar disorders, for example) fall under the neurodivergence umbrella too, which goes back to my earlier point about how it's too loose of a term and how that binary (neurotypical or neurodivergent) doesn't make much sense and can at worst even be problematic. So the Waid and JMS examples you brought up can count too. This gets into a deeper discussion over what percentage of the population is even "neurotypical", if "neurotypical" people as a whole are even a majority (meaning they would be more than 50% of the population) given what a huge-and-loose umbrella term "neurodivergent" is, and if there really is such a thing as "neurotypical" or "normal" or if it's a concept from a bygone era when mental health and developmental differences were more stigmatized and kept in the closet.
I admit I regret using the word 'neurodivergent' in that post. My point was more that there are some mental health - related themes to Spider-Man that aren't as talked about.
Tobey's Peter being on the spectrum is something I thought about too, but I never gave it much consideration just because I don't know much about autism, to be honest.[/QUOTE]
As a neurodivergent, I have no problem with using the term, neurodivergent.
I never thought of Tobey's Peter being on the spectrum.
I just thought he was just a nerd which I have no problem with.
I enjoyed The Revenge of the Nerds movies.
