Only one reason I think Perez made a bad choice with the Amazons

So, one of the things I have long missed about the Amazons is the weird mixture of ancient Greek & technological brilliance. Pre-crisis WW embraced this throughout its whole run, from Diana inventing the purple ray to Amazons wearing weird "invisible" space suits made from the same material as the invisible plane to fight Astarte.

I'm probably late to the party for just realizing this, but I've seen Black Panther four times and tonight I'm watching Avengers: Infinity War again, and the Wakandan mix of tradition and futuristic is just so very neat and so much more interesting than the Amazons remaining a culture frozen in time. It works! Perez's choice to do make the Amazons a "hidden, unchanged culture" served the idea of a naive Diana experiencing the outer world for the first time, but it also took much of the interest in the Amazons away.

Phil Jimenez was the one to try to bridge the pre-crisis & post-crisis gap, setting up one of the islands as - if iircc? - galacticly vital research spaces and interstellar libraries. But this faded after Rucka kicked the islands to Earth (a story I love, btw), and by the time of Azzarello (whose run I really enjoyed), the Amazons were back to being stuck in time. Or maybe they really weren't, but he kept them snakes most of the time, so who knows?

Anyway, I am reminded by some Marvel movies how much I loved the funky mixture of ancient & futuristic in WW before Crisis. And while he did great things for the WW property, those Perezian Amazons that made it into the WW movie are not my favorite Amazons.

But I am certainly not hating on Robin Wright or Connie Neilson. They kick ass. :D

[QUOTE=Frank;3886741]So, one of the things I have long missed about the Amazons is the weird mixture of ancient Greek & technological brilliance. Pre-crisis WW embraced this throughout its whole run, from Diana inventing the purple ray to Amazons wearing weird "invisible" space suits made from the same material as the invisible plane to fight Astarte.

I'm probably late to the party for just realizing this, but I've seen Black Panther four times and tonight I'm watching Avengers: Infinity War again, and the Wakandan mix of tradition and futuristic is just so very neat and so much more interesting than the Amazons remaining a culture frozen in time. It works! Perez's choice to do make the Amazons a "hidden, unchanged culture" served the idea of a naive Diana experiencing the outer world for the first time, but it also took much of the interest in the Amazons away.

Phil Jimenez was the one to try to bridge the pre-crisis & post-crisis gap, setting up one of the islands as - if iircc? - galacticly vital research spaces and interstellar libraries. But this faded after Rucka kicked the islands to Earth (a story I love, btw), and by the time of Azzarello (whose run I really enjoyed), the Amazons were back to being stuck in time. Or maybe they really weren't, but he kept them snakes most of the time, so who knows?

Anyway, I am reminded by some Marvel movies how much I loved the funky mixture of ancient & futuristic in WW before Crisis. And while he did great things for the WW property, those Perezian Amazons that made it into the WW movie are not my favorite Amazons.

But I am certainly not hating on Robin Wright or Connie Neilson. They kick ass. :D[/QUOTE]

True, it's kind of infuriating that Amazons in movies are stuck in 300 BC. Civilisation progress.

Yeah, its honestly kinda sad to realize that Marston was the only writer to explore the Amazons as a culture and a people who evolved, with everyone following to just kinda treat them as these backwards primatives who still run around waving swords in the air.

Aside from the awesome technology, the space technology, establishing the Amazons contact with other secret civilizations and exploration of other worlds, I also really enjoyed how the golden age explored what the Amazons do for entertainment. Showed multiple holidays that the Amazons celebrate. Established that Amazons had children and that any Amazon could make a child from clay and give it life if they chose to because pro choice.

[QUOTE=Geraldofrivia;3886866]True, it's kind of infuriating that Amazons in movies are stuck in 300 BC. [B]Civilisation progress[/B].[/QUOTE]

But do they when the inhabitants are immortals and basically don't need advancment ?

It's a genuine question : what do you think forces changes and progress ? The succession of generations and a need to thrive.

If we were immortals, with the same peoples in charge, forever, would we truly innovate ? I'm not so sure. I mean, even in today's world, it seems to me that those in charges don't want changes but want to preserve a certain social architecture (which is killing our world).

The Amazons, leaving on a paradisiac island (most of the time), immortals and without new members save Diana (whatever her origin may be) don't really have reasons to develop beyond the society and technology they had when they reached the island.

Wakandan, for all their technology, are humans. They grow old and die and new générations arise to try and achieve new heights.

An isolationist society of immortal same-sex people without apparent means to procreate won't have much ways to develop, IMHO.

It's tricky, because Perez did not simply remove something from the narrative when he made the Amazons mythical rather than technological. He added the possibility of culture shock to Diana's origin and coming of age story, adding another layer to it. There is also the question on how a society of limited resources and population could create a technological society as we know it. (Wakanda at least could import some of the stuff they need, and bring in knowledge from the outside.) Having Themyscira being high-tech also brings the risk of Diana coming off as holier-than-thou, as she did in Morrison's [I]Wonder Woman: Earth One[/I].

So I'd prefer Themyscira to have gone in an entirely different direction than our society. Instead of mass-production, get limited amounts of extremely high-quality hand-made items; items that to our eyes would appear as magic but is technology for the Amazons. If we take the invisible jet as an example, they had no need for an aircraft before Steve Trevor crashed onto the island, but once they had a basic model of an aircraft and Diana needed a means to get off the island, the Amazon artisans built one.

[QUOTE=Fuzzy Mittens;3886974]Yeah, its honestly kinda sad to realize that Marston was the only writer to explore the Amazons as a culture and a people who evolved, with everyone following to just kinda treat them as these backwards primatives who still run around waving swords in the air.

Aside from the awesome technology, the space technology, establishing the Amazons contact with other secret civilizations and exploration of other worlds, I also really enjoyed how the golden age explored what the Amazons do for entertainment. Showed multiple holidays that the Amazons celebrate. Established that Amazons had children and that any Amazon could make a child from clay and give it life if they chose to because pro choice.[/QUOTE]

Jiminez, Rucka and Simone focused on advanced Amazons. The Bana from Perez's run were also advanced in some ways.

We didn't get to see too much of the Amazon world in the WONDER WOMAN movie, but the production design was supposed to show a different development from what Man's World took over the last thrree thousand years.

There's lots of spirals, which reminds me of the Minoans, who were on Crete--as opposed to the Mycenaeans on the mainland of Greece--and it's thought the Minoans could have been more advanced relative to their neighbours across the sea.

I don't think the healing bath or the bio-luminscents are spooky supernaturalism. I think it's supposed to be a philosophy of working with nature, not against her. They live in harmony with the environment rather than forcing change upon it. That doesn't mean they aren't scientific. It could mean they are way ahead of us and have found ways to exist without spoiling the environment that sustains them.

Another way to look at Amazon society is that they are extremely long-lived and smart. While they obviously have specialist healers, fighters, gardeners, smiths, weavers, scholars, astronomers, and so on, I expect that the individual Amazons have general knowledge and skills in several areas, similar to an expert in our world. Basically any single Amazon would be able to at least keep within shouting distance of Poison Ivy talking botany, Harley Quinn talking psychology and psychiatry, Lex Luthor talking organisation and management, Doctor Poison talking chemistry, and so on. Amazon experts in their fields would be recognised as their peers, and could likely teach them a thing or two.

Or as Heinlein had Lazarus Long say: “A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, design a building, write a sonnet, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, solve equations, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.”

I'd like to think the Amazons take that dictum seriously.

[QUOTE=Korath;3886997]But do they when the inhabitants are immortals and basically don't need advancment ?

It's a genuine question : what do you think forces changes and progress ? The succession of generations and a need to thrive.

If we were immortals, with the same peoples in charge, forever, would we truly innovate ? I'm not so sure. I mean, even in today's world, it seems to me that those in charges don't want changes but want to preserve a certain social architecture (which is killing our world).

The Amazons, leaving on a paradisiac island (most of the time), immortals and without new members save Diana (whatever her origin may be) don't really have reasons to develop beyond the society and technology they had when they reached the island.

Wakandan, for all their technology, are humans. They grow old and die and new générations arise to try and achieve new heights.

An isolationist society of immortal same-sex people without apparent means to procreate won't have much ways to develop, IMHO.[/QUOTE]

May be because they are protecting a lot of world ending plot devices and also have a PRISON FOR GODS! How is Atlantis and Gorilla city technologically advanced but Amazons are not?

Because the Atlanteans and Gorillas are mortals.

As such, each new generation thrive to prove itself, in a lot of ways, including technological advancement.

And in truth, even Atlanteans don't seem to have advanced much in the last hundred of years, really. Their technology is still mostly the same as before the Sunking of Atlantis, as far as I know.

Meanwhile, Amazons do'nt need technology because they are immortals, unchanging peoples, with magic and gods here to provide artifacts if need be. It isn't because you're protecting a prison for Gods that you need laser gun, not when a blessed javeline may work just as well.

[QUOTE=Korath;3887246]Because the Atlanteans and Gorillas are mortals.

As such, each new generation thrive to prove itself, in a lot of ways, including technological advancement.

And in truth, even Atlanteans don't seem to have advanced much in the last hundred of years, really. Their technology is still mostly the same as before the Sunking of Atlantis, as far as I know.

Meanwhile, Amazons do'nt need technology because they are immortals, unchanging peoples, with magic and gods here to provide artifacts if need be. It isn't because you're protecting a prison for Gods that you need laser gun, not when a blessed javeline may work just as well.[/QUOTE]

Necessity is the mother of invention, so to speak.

The Amazons used to guard Doom's Doorway and now guard Ares' prison (and possibly still the Doorway?)

Under Azzarello, the Amazons would seduce and kill sailors on ships far superior to theirs with technology that would definitely be helpful to their 'guard' duties, specifically in terms of communication, travel and weaponry.

A big example would be the movie versions - thousands of years ago, they helped fight off an alien invasion and were set to guard the alien device against another such incursion. Those aliens flew, were armored and had advanced weaponry.

Wouldn't a reasonably intelligent society prepare against those sorts of things?

Yet 3000 years later, they are still firing arrows against energy weapons, and trying to outride flying creatures.

Even if we ignore the JL, the Amazons in WW were there to guard against Ares, god of war. Shouldn't they remain current in the weapons that their enemies will have access to in order to properly combat them?

Current Robinson version has Hippolyta making frequent contact with at least one immortal outside of Themyscira, so she's not oblivious.

In almost every iteration of the Amazons, they have seen what the outside world has and have either (a) kept up or exceeded it (purple healing/death ray, invisible jet) or, sadly in more recent history (b) ignored it and/or remained willfully ignorant and therefore primitive.

The Amazons were created to excel, and Diana was created as a scientist.

Now they're stuck in the bronze age and Diana serves no purpose in man's world, let alone has been shown to have any scientific leanings in decades.

That's a big step back, imo.

That's indeed a step back, but one which doesn't strike me as un-understandable storywise, if bad for Diana and what she was created to achieve.

The Amazons are far trickier than most other fictional societies because they are both secluded from the outside world and immortals. The combination of both isn't a fertile ground for innovation I think.

Now, there were cases where they should have tried to evolve (Azzarello, the JL), but each time, "lore" reasons could be found, if a writer so wished : the Amazons actually relished battle and extremely traditionalist during New 52; as for JL, it could be said that without new peoples with new ways to see the world, they simply never imagined where to start the prospect of crafting better equipment and weapons. It's rather weak, but it's the only things which could make sense.

[QUOTE=Gaelforce;3887290]Necessity is the mother of invention, so to speak.

The Amazons used to guard Doom's Doorway and now guard Ares' prison (and possibly still the Doorway?)

Under Azzarello, the Amazons would seduce and kill sailors on ships far superior to theirs with technology that would definitely be helpful to their 'guard' duties, specifically in terms of communication, travel and weaponry.

A big example would be the movie versions - thousands of years ago, they helped fight off an alien invasion and were set to guard the alien device against another such incursion. Those aliens flew, were armored and had advanced weaponry.

Wouldn't a reasonably intelligent society prepare against those sorts of things?

Yet 3000 years later, they are still firing arrows against energy weapons, and trying to outride flying creatures.

Even if we ignore the JL, the Amazons in WW were there to guard against Ares, god of war. Shouldn't they remain current in the weapons that their enemies will have access to in order to properly combat them?

Current Robinson version has Hippolyta making frequent contact with at least one immortal outside of Themyscira, so she's not oblivious.

In almost every iteration of the Amazons, they have seen what the outside world has and have either (a) kept up or exceeded it (purple healing/death ray, invisible jet) or, sadly in more recent history (b) ignored it and/or remained willfully ignorant and therefore primitive.

The Amazons were created to excel, and Diana was created as a scientist.

Now they're stuck in the bronze age and Diana serves no purpose in man's world, let alone has been shown to have any scientific leanings in decades.

That's a big step back, imo.[/QUOTE]

Rightly said, A person in 1940 dreamt of a female civilisation advanced than Mankind and in 2018 they are living in 300BC.

[QUOTE=Geraldofrivia;3887215]May be because they are protecting a lot of world ending plot devices and also have a PRISON FOR GODS! How is Atlantis and Gorilla city technologically advanced but Amazons are not?[/QUOTE]

May I remind you of Clarke's third law: "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." Another case that might be interesting is that many stone age cultures run on high degrees of knowledge and craftsmanship.

What to us appears as markers of our high technology, like cars or aircraft, might be viewed by the Amazons as crude things. They might make themselves ready to fight monsters out of legends, and their weapons are suited to fighting those, not an industrial war.

Lets make a study of this. In the movie, Menalippe blocks a rifle bullet at point-blank range with her shield, that she can move quite easily. This is a German Mauser, and using standard ball ammunition (not armour-piercing one) that could penetrate 5mm of steel at 100 meters. This was closer. Lets also assume that the shield is 70 cm in diameter. The density of steel is circa 8 gram per cubic centimeter.

Some math gives us 35^2*π*0.5*8 for its weight in grams. A steel shield like that built using modern techniques would make the shield weigh a whopping 15 kilos, and would probably be unable to block the bullet too. Real-world shields seems to weigh at most half that. If we double the thickness so it would stop a bullet like that, then it would come it at 30 kilos!

And then we have the shield that Diana uses, that parries a mortar round and stands up to concentrated close-range machine gun fire with nary a dent. And unlike the poor sailors on the beach, these might very well have access to early armour-piercing ammunition, with double the penetration.

Now, it's possible that the Amazons are simply strong enough to move around a 15 kilo steel shield like it weighed a third. But Etta doesn't seem to have any problem with Diana's sword, it might be a little heavier than she expects, but not much heavier. Rather, I believe that the shields and weapons that the Amazons are using are similar in weight to our shields and weapons, but made using metallurgical knowledge and methods that are far beyond those known to us, resulting in far superior strength.

[QUOTE=kjn;3887350]May I remind you of Clarke's third law: "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." Another case that might be interesting is that many stone age cultures run on high degrees of knowledge and craftsmanship.

What to us appears as markers of our high technology, like cars or aircraft, might be viewed by the Amazons as crude things. They might make themselves ready to fight monsters out of legends, and their weapons are suited to fighting those, not an industrial war.

Lets make a study of this. In the movie, Menalippe blocks a rifle bullet at point-blank range with her shield, that she can move quite easily. This is a German Mauser, and using standard ball ammunition (not armour-piercing one) that could penetrate 5mm of steel at 100 meters. This was closer. Lets also assume that the shield is 70 cm in diameter. The density of steel is circa 8 gram per cubic centimeter.

Some math gives us 35^2*π*0.5*8 for its weight in grams. A steel shield like that built using modern techniques would make the shield weigh a whopping 15 kilos, and would probably be unable to block the bullet too. Real-world shields seems to weigh at most half that. If we double the thickness so it would stop a bullet like that, then it would come it at 30 kilos!

And then we have the shield that Diana uses, that parries a mortar round and stands up to concentrated close-range machine gun fire with nary a dent. And unlike the poor sailors on the beach, these might very well have access to early armour-piercing ammunition, with double the penetration.

Now, it's possible that the Amazons are simply strong enough to move around a 15 kilo steel shield like it weighed a third. But Etta doesn't seem to have any problem with Diana's sword, it might be a little heavier than she expects, but not much heavier. Rather, I believe that the shields and weapons that the Amazons are using are similar in weight to our shields and weapons, but made using metallurgical knowledge and methods that are far beyond those known to us, resulting in far superior strength.[/QUOTE]

That shield is definitely not made by Amazons and is probably loaned by some gods so that poor brainless Amazons can defend themselves like everything they own.
Also the Amazon weapons are made of special metal not steel.

Also explain how the ancient boat reached from Themyscira to London?
How does Wonder Woman don't know about marriage if she knows all languages and about sex?