Before the MCU start, there are some people say that only Spidey, FF and X-Men are the top franchise for Marvel. It doesn't make sense since 'The Avengers' is also a big brand for Marvel but doesn't get the same attention like the latter. Even the Avengers has a strong popular franchise since the 80's. And some people say Iron Man is not well known before the MCU. What is going on actually?
[QUOTE=LAWtoyoto 432;5736193]Before the MCU start, there are some people say that only Spidey, FF and X-Men are the top franchise for Marvel. It doesn't make sense since 'The Avengers' is also a big brand for Marvel but doesn't get the same attention like the latter. Even the Avengers has a strong popular franchise since the 80's. And some people say Iron Man is not well known before the MCU. What is going on actually?[/QUOTE]
Honestly, it depends on how you look at it.
X-Men sold better than Avengers.
But Avengers had more titles. There were more solo Avenger stories than X-Men solo stories. Captain America, Iron Man, Wonder Man, Quasar, Thor, Avengers, Solo Avengers, West Coast Avengers. I'm sure I'm forgetting a few.
Now because X-Men sold better, it got better artists and writers. Avengers was second class. Galactic Storm was a huge Avengers crossover. But it took many years before a trade came out for it. X-Men got a new number 1 with Jim Lee and 5 covers.
MCU made the Avengers a huge juggernaut. Now it also didn't help that Marvel didn't own the rights to X-Men movies, so what did they do in the comics, tried to dump them.
They weren't as well known before the MCU to the general audience, although the X-Men only really became more popular since the 80s IIRC. Now it's more even, but I'd say F4 is the least popular now
90's X-Men, Spider-Man, Hulk and Fantastic Four are considered classics. Some of them, especially Spider-Man got multiple shows under their belt. 90's Iron Man cartoon and Avengers: United They Stand are less popular and barely even talked about these days. The IM show wasn't bad, it had it's moments but didn't really stick long term with audiences. Avengers: UTS though? That **** was borderline unwatchable.
When Marvel wanted to make movies out of their characters who did they go with first? X-Men, Spider-Man, Hulk, Punisher and Daredevil. Because the first three were their biggest characters and the rest were the ones that they felt were marketable to mainstream audiences whom everyone believed would have no patience for the sillier and more out there aspects of comic books.
Part of it is also when you got into Marvel and superheroes. For me it was the late 90's and early 00's. Back then X-Men, Spider-Man and Fantastic Four were more prominent in adaptations hence they felt more loved and more like the 'face' of Marvel. For anyone getting into Marvel in the tens, it's going to be the Avengers.
The thing with the Avengers is that they are very close in concept to the JL whereas their other properties were more unique. FF was unique because they had no secret identities and had a family dynamic that was rare even back then, Spider-Man defined the archetype of the teenage superhero, Punisher is an anti-hero 'nuff said, Wolverine is bad ass and is also an anti-hero, the X-Men is also incredibly popular, broke records for most copies sold in the 90's, Jim Lee's art style defined the comic book style of the time alongside Liefeld (for better or not worse depending on who you ask) and is basically a whole school of teenage superheroes whom you can also apply either the outcast metaphor or minority depending on which one is the more vogue at the time. Plus the Avengers almost require every hero having a solo outing first before bringing them together. Conceivable for an animated show but you can't really do that in one movie.
[QUOTE=Mik;5736296]They weren't as well known before the MCU to the general audience, although the X-Men only really became more popular since the 80s IIRC. Now it's more even, but I'd say F4 is the least popular now[/QUOTE]
Agreed
And I think the X-Men cartoon helped a lot with their popularity, for me it's still a definitive version
And it's soundtrack was fantastic
It was a great advert for their already popular books
[QUOTE=John Venus;5736391]90's X-Men, Spider-Man, Hulk and Fantastic Four are considered classics. Some of them, especially Spider-Man got multiple shows under their belt. 90's Iron Man cartoon and Avengers: United They Stand are less popular and barely even talked about these days. The IM show wasn't bad, it had it's moments but didn't really stick long term with audiences. Avengers: UTS though? That **** was borderline unwatchable.
When Marvel wanted to make movies out of their characters who did they go with first? X-Men, Spider-Man, Hulk, Punisher and Daredevil. Because the first three were their biggest characters and the rest were the ones that they felt were marketable to mainstream audiences whom everyone believed would have no patience for the sillier and more out there aspects of comic books.
Part of it is also when you got into Marvel and superheroes. For me it was the late 90's and early 00's. Back then X-Men, Spider-Man and Fantastic Four were more prominent in adaptations hence they felt more loved and more like the 'face' of Marvel. For anyone getting into Marvel in the tens, it's going to be the Avengers.
The thing with the Avengers is that they are very close in concept to the JL whereas their other properties were more unique. FF was unique because they had no secret identities and had a family dynamic that was rare even back then, Spider-Man defined the archetype of the teenage superhero, Punisher is an anti-hero 'nuff said, Wolverine is bad ass and is also an anti-hero, the X-Men is also incredibly popular, broke records for most copies sold in the 90's, Jim Lee's art style defined the comic book style of the time alongside Liefeld (for better or not worse depending on who you ask) and is basically a whole school of teenage superheroes whom you can also apply either the outcast metaphor or minority depending on which one is the more vogue at the time. Plus the Avengers almost require every hero having a solo outing first before bringing them together. Conceivable for an animated show but you can't really do that in one movie.[/QUOTE]
Ironically, I think that's why the Avengers were the best to build a cinematic universe on. Because can branch out into solo projects then bring in those characters into bigger team-ups.
[QUOTE=kilderkin;5736392]Agreed
And I think the X-Men cartoon helped a lot with their popularity, for me it's still a definitive version
And it's soundtrack was fantastic
It was a great advert for their already popular books[/QUOTE]
I think the movies have even more influenced the general audience, to where I suspect many think Wolverine is the most important character despite this being a team series. Of course, that happened in the comics too, in the last 2 decades
Before the All-New, All-Different X-Men took the world by storm, in the late 70's, no one, even many who read comics, even knew they existed. The individual Avengers, such as Thor, Iron Man, Captain America (sometimes even Vision, Hercules and Hawkeye) ruled the merchandizing and even had cartoons. After the early 80's the X-Men took over and became the golden boys having their pick of top tier artists and dominating the mechandizing. Then came the MCU, and that oicture was reversed again. All in all, as someone has mentioned, other than, arguably, Wolverine, the X-Men characters only achieve success through the team, while a few of the Avengers get to stand out on their own apart from the team. Spider Man always stood out on his own, and, generally the FF fall into the same situation as the X-Men.
Peace
[QUOTE=Nomads1;5736723]Before the All-New, All-Different X-Men took the world by storm, in the late 70's, no one, even many who read comics, even knew they existed. The individual Avengers, such as Thor, Iron Man, Captain America (sometimes even Vision, Hercules and Hawkeye) ruled the merchandizing and even had cartoons. After the early 80's the X-Men took over and became the golden boys having their pick of top tier artists and dominating the mechandizing. Then came the MCU, and that oicture was reversed again. All in all, as someone has mentioned, other than, arguably, Wolverine, the X-Men characters only achieve success through the team, while a few of the Avengers get to stand out on their own apart from the team. Spider Man always stood out on his own, and, generally the FF fall into the same situation as the X-Men.
Peace[/QUOTE]
That's correct. Tbh, I don't see why it has to be either/or. Spider-Man, Avengers and X-Men should all get attention.
As for the general audience, I wonder how many individual Avengers and X-Men the average non-comics fan could name
Yeah, pretty much a lot of what came from X-men until the mid 70s were that Quicksilver & Scarlet Witch were major Avengers, and Magneto frequently clashed with the FF, Avengers, and Defenders more often than the X-men in the early 70s.
Granted, back then he was more of a generic "muhaha!" kind of villain rather than the complex character Claremont would turn him to.
One thing for myself and my friends we knew who Spiderman and the Xmen were. Maybe the Cartoon, maybe it was because the 70's Xmen in the Clermont Era were such stand out most people knew the core Xmen and of course everyone knew Spiderman.
But for the Avengers? They had the mainstays of course with Captain America, Ironman, and Thor. but who else did they have? Doctor Druid, Gilgamesh, Quasar, Black Knight etc.. Most of the public had no clue who these guys were or could care less when they did know.
If you are a causal fan who do you want to read? Wolverine, Storm, and the rest of the Xemn and Spiderman or a story with Doctor Druid?
[QUOTE=babyblob;5736825]One thing for myself and my friends we knew who Spiderman and the Xmen were. Maybe the Cartoon, maybe it was because the 70's Xmen in the Clermont Era were such stand out most people knew the core Xmen and of course everyone knew Spiderman.
But for the Avengers? They had the mainstays of course with Captain America, Ironman, and Thor. but who else did they have? Doctor Druid, Gilgamesh, Quasar, Black Knight etc.. Most of the public had no clue who these guys were or could care less when they did know.
If you are a causal fan who do you want to read? Wolverine, Storm, and the rest of the Xemn and Spiderman or a story with Doctor Druid?[/QUOTE]
Isn't Dr Druid comparable to a minor X-Men character like Corsair or Spiral?
[QUOTE=Mik;5736869]Isn't Dr Druid comparable to a minor X-Men character like Corsair or Spiral?[/QUOTE]
Maybe. But you dont see Corsair or Spiral on many Xmen covers. If you were at the store and saw Wolverine and Nightcrawler on a cover, or a cool cover of Spiderman fighting Doc Ock vs an Avengers cover with Doctor Druid which one would fans choose?
I get the The Avengers had characters that didnt/couldnt support their own titles but people cant wonder why Avengers sold less when there were times they had Marvel C and D list heroes on the team when the Xmen were all pretty much A and B listers that fans loved.
I love the Avengers, have loved them for years but they have many members I just do not like reading about and could care less about. And I am a huge Avengers and Marvel comics fan and I am not the only hardcore fan that feels this way. So how would the causal fan feel?
Solo Avengers was a fun book. but the issues with Doctor Druid, or Moon Dragon? Man I can skip over them no problem. So why is it a shock that the causal fan would as well.
The XMen with the Clermont years and the Jim Lee years of the 90s were amazing and love or hate them they brought in causal fans. The Avengers did not have any writer for many years that made the causal fan want to rush out and pick up a copy.
There were a few factors. One, the Avengers relied upon the popularity of solo title heroes like Captain America and Iron Man to draw people in. The problem being, you couldn't really do anything hard-hitting or important in the team book because it would take away from their solo titles, and they weren't really given a lot of room to do anything but sling a shield/blast a repulsor ray and shout a catchphrase. That was reserved for the Avengers-only characters like your Hawkeyes/Visions/Doctor Druids.
This meant the title overall was going to be less interesting if you were focused on the big name characters, despite them fighting larger scale threats than they would in their own titles. The X-Men on the other hand was a team only book (outside of Wolverine) and so all characters had equal development, whether they were the big names or minor characters. That meant more emotional attachment and more going on every month. When big things happened to big characters, it was happening in the main book.
Then you had a more diverse cast in the X-titles, whereas the mainstays of the Avengers line-up seemed like it was picked out of a catalogue by the Red Skull (lot of blonde and blue-eyed honkies with your Pyms/Thors/Hawkeyes/Caps/etc.). Also a bit of an old-fashioned feel to the Avengers, where the X-Men had that whole oppressed outsider feel.
[QUOTE=Nomads1;5736723]Before the All-New, All-Different X-Men took the world by storm, in the late 70's, no one, even many who read comics, even knew they existed. The individual Avengers, such as Thor, Iron Man, Captain America (sometimes even Vision, Hercules and Hawkeye) ruled the merchandizing and even had cartoons. After the early 80's the X-Men took over and became the golden boys having their pick of top tier artists and dominating the mechandizing. Then came the MCU, and that oicture was reversed again. All in all, as someone has mentioned, other than, arguably, Wolverine, the X-Men characters only achieve success through the team, while a few of the Avengers get to stand out on their own apart from the team. Spider Man always stood out on his own, and, generally the FF fall into the same situation as the X-Men.
Peace[/QUOTE]
Quoted in agreement.
I guess because I am older too but the individual Avengers were quite popular back then. Captain America and Iron Man (and Namor) already had animated series way back in the 60s.
After a while, it became all X-men all the time and Marvel did EVERYTHING HUMANLY POSSIBLE UNDER THE SUN to keep them at the top...at the expense of other characters. Spider-man has always been at the top. The FF were huge in the 80s but during the "all X-men all the time" focus of Marvel they fell by the way side (it doesn't get worse than Wolverine permanently scarring the Thing).
But with billion dollar movies, the Avengers are more prominent in pop culture than any other superhero team and the individual characters more popular.
I will point something out, for a large part of their history, the Avengers did NOT feature Marvel's top heroes. At all.
I know there's been the comparison between the Avengers and Justice League but Marvel hasn't really treated the Avengers like the way DC treated the JL.
Outside of the "Detroit era" and the "Ha-ha Justice League (which was one of the best ever runs on the title), the JL has always featured DC's top guys. The Avengers on the other hand have been collections of C to D-list characters at best for extended periods of time. Marvel didn't exactly place the Avengers at the forefront of their universe until The Ultimates in 2002 or so and then New Avengers in 2004 (or thereabout).