Spider-Man: Major in real life, Minor in-universe?

Spidey has been at the hero game almost as long as the fantastic four. He is a pro by this point. (even when bendis wrote him like a child in avengers) He has been on more hero teams then captain America, teamed up with almost every hero, helped reform many bad guys who later formed the outlaws, beat both hulk and firelord on his own and outsmarted thanos leading to his death! Thanos didn't see Spider-Man worth his time and it was spidey who grabbed the gem freeing warlock that lead to thanos getting killed. Spidey did what the avengers and captain marvel and thing couldn't in that battle. Beat thanos! This may be why thanos went after spidey in that infinity gauntlet side story.


Spidey has had comics printed in the marvel universe also but to say spidey is a nobody you have to ignore all his team up and crossover stories. Spidey has been in cosmic battles and even space adventures. He is a pro by this point.

[QUOTE=Revolutionary_Jack;4783938]The problem is that some writers work it in so that the Avengers disrespect Spider-Man for "saving the little guy" or going after small-time crooks. Which is not just disrespectful but sociopathic. In the superhero community, if you think that going after big time supervillains makes you better or greater than the ones who go after the criminals you think is beneath your powers to do so...then you are basically getting into the mentality that special forces soldiers are bigger than the infantryman, cop, first responder and that attitude is something nobody in real life, not in the special forces or anywhere else, would ever espouse.

The biggest embodiment of this is the "below my pay-grade" line in Homecoming. Obviously you need to justify why Tony Stark doesn't go after the Vulture or take care of all villains since otherwise there won't be stories to tell for any other hero. But there are more elegant ways to go about doing it.[/QUOTE]

Your logic falters because that never happens in the books and stories. The Avengers, or most of the "top" heroes, don't disrespect Spider-Man because he "saves the little guy", and deals with smaller threats, because they all deal with smaller threats all the time. It's because they think he's a goof who doesn't take anything seriously due to his quippy personality.

Any hate or issues you have with Homecoming or Iron Man isn't really relevant to the question regarding 616 Spider-Man's place in his world.

[QUOTE=Revolutionary_Jack;4782225]At heart, Avengers is a trashy team of rejects who can't sell their own stories because they are, with few exceptions, not especially interesting characters. That's how the Avengers began as[/QUOTE]Bull. The reason they didn't have their own books is because their distributor had been shut down, forcing them to turn to DC. So they weren't allowed to launch new titles - it isn't because they couldn't sell, they were unable to even try. That's why Iron Man, Thor, and Captain America didn't have self titled books. It was 1968 before they were able to publish more titles and give them solo books.

[QUOTE=Digifiend;4784147]Bull. The reason they didn't have their own books is because their distributor had been shut down, forcing them to turn to DC. So they weren't allowed to launch new titles - it isn't because they couldn't sell, they were unable to even try. That's why Iron Man, Thor, and Captain America didn't have self titled books. It was 1968 before they were able to publish more titles and give them solo books.[/QUOTE]

Fact is, that even after 1968, the problem still persisted. Read any old interviews and so on. Bendis himself pointed out that when he launched New Avengers, it came out of a discussion with him and Mark Millar about how the Avengers ought to be the Marvel Justice League but aren't actually that, since most of the roster don't have memorable characters and have a high turnover rate.

In the Avengers the problem once Roy Thomas started the title was that the big three Cap/Thor/Tony had their own titles and stories and as such the Avengers had to use them as static figures in the ensemble so that led Roy Thomas to focus on characters he could control to generate drama. So that meant Hank and Janet initially, and after that Wanda and Vision, and later on others. This added to the perception of the Avengers as a a group of second-stringers.

And to be honest, I like the Avengers in that way. The joke of Marvel's Justice League being a dumping ground for rejects allowed a level of irony and fun to come into the stories, and even a bit of poignancy. Whereas if you make them the literal Marvel Justice League that goes down...and not to mention that I don't think a Justice League-like organization has a place in Marvel, i.e. a publicly supported and loved group of superheroes funded by the government. That always stank of DC to me.

[QUOTE=Inversed;4783973]Your logic falters because that never happens in the books and stories. The Avengers, or most of the "top" heroes, don't disrespect Spider-Man because he "saves the little guy", and deals with smaller threats, because they all deal with smaller threats all the time. It's because they think he's a goof who doesn't take anything seriously due to his quippy personality. [/quote]

As if there haven't been Avengers who do that, like Hawkeye used to be quippy and Janet van Dyne was also quite irritating in early stories, like the first Avengers team-up in that ASM Annual has her droning about how wasps hate spiders and so on.

There are moments like when Tony Stark or Hank Pym at different moments insult Peter for wasting his talents and scientific genius on catching crooks and the like. Which okay, is an argument that's fine for a cop or a random civilian or a supervillain to make. But not from fellow superheroes and certainly not from Tony "I sold weapons till my mid-30s and don't give my Arc Reactor Tech to the public" Stark and from Hank "Creator of Ultron and Hoarder of Revolutionary Particles" Pym.

These chiselers spend a lot of time either inventing villains, and hoarding even more radical technology while having greater resources than Peter, and they have the f--king nerve to talk down to a guy who at a younger age than their epiphanies (or in the case of Hank, having undone his epiphany) went about being a better person.

[quote]Any hate or issues you have with Homecoming or Iron Man isn't really relevant to the question regarding 616 Spider-Man's place in his world.[/QUOTE]

Obviously, different writers have agendas and axes to grind and things change. Some writers portray Spider-Man as respected by fellow supers and younger folk, others not so. I am just reacting to instances where it's outright disrespectful.

I think the main reason Peter doesn't join teams is because he's fiercely independent. From early on in the Lee/Ditko run, you have this contrast that while he envies organizational superheroes their secure lifestyle, he doesn't take orders.

[QUOTE=David Walton;4783893]Yes and no? Dr. Strange, for instance, shared [B]Strange Tales [/B]with Nick Fury before getting his own book. So some fans might have been buying for S.H.I.E.L.D., some for the sorcerer supreme, and others for both. Same is true of Hulk, Captain America and Iron Man.[/QUOTE]

I was talking about what The Avengers started as. When Avengers #1 hit the stands Thor was the lead of Journey into Mystery, Iron Man was the lead of Tales of Suspense and Ant-Man and the Wasp were the leads of Tales to Astonish. People were buying those comics for those characters.

[QUOTE=David Walton;4784321]I think the main reason Peter doesn't join teams is because he's fiercely independent. From early on in the Lee/Ditko run, you have this contrast that while he envies organizational superheroes their secure lifestyle, he doesn't take orders.[/QUOTE]

Also the theme of responsibility of Peter works best if he is his own man. In any superhero team, the main story would eventually be, or inevitably be, when Spider-man has to choose between what he thinks is right and what's good for the team, as happened in Civil War, and shown in JMS' issues.

Peter is neurotic in that he would like to have a bigger team, have a community to back him, and so on, but on the other hand he'd feel uncomfortable once he gets that.

I like Tom Taylor's final issue of FNSM where Peter has to take care of Aunt May but has errands to run only to find that virtually every hero Peter ran into and met during that run chips in to give Spider-Man a night off. That was great.

[QUOTE=David Walton;4784321]I think the main reason Peter doesn't join teams is because he's fiercely independent. From early on in the Lee/Ditko run, you have this contrast that while he envies organizational superheroes their secure lifestyle, he doesn't take orders.[/QUOTE]

That attitude is reflected in Homecoming. For instance, I'm not really sure the Homecoming Vulture was that big of a deal. Stark called the FBI, pretty sure they could handle it. And they might have actually been able to handle things, since Vulture and his crews were sitting there on the boat with no armor or weapons. But Peter escalated things big time. In the comics, he often does that precisely because he's not a team guy. It leads to misunderstandings, like doing stuff the cops misinterpret as criminal.

[QUOTE=Scott Taylor;4784864]That attitude is reflected in Homecoming. For instance, I'm not really sure the Homecoming Vulture was that big of a deal.[/quote]

These guys robbed Chitauri tech under the noses of Stark and Damage Control for 8 years without no one being the wiser, until one of Vulture's goons made the mistake of selling it to low-scale street hoodlums.

[quote]Stark called the FBI, pretty sure they could handle it. [/quote]

The same Tony Stark who thought Ultron would put a suit of armor around the world only for that to blow up in his face.
The same Tony Stark who thought he privatized world peace since no one can replicate his tech until Ivan Vanko did and blew up in his face.
The same Tony Stark who thought Mandarin was a loser and told him about his home address on TV and got his home blown up and nearly got Pepper killed.

Stark has poor judgment in the MCU. The movies bend over backwards to make him work as a voice of reason because they have to deny the character is an a--hole because he's a protected character owing to the actor playing him. So even if he's negligent and ignorant and dismissive in Homecoming and Far From Home, he can never actually be called out for that.

Making Tony Stark a mentor figure was a colossal mistake for the MCU overall. It weakens the characters.

[quote]And they might have actually been able to handle things, since Vulture and his crews were sitting there on the boat with no armor or weapons.[/quote]

Vulture had his suit and weapons on that Ferry and in fact it was that weapon which he unleashed on exposure that caused that Ferry to break.

If the FBI cornered him, Vulture and others would unleash their weapons on them, and most likely cause collateral damage only without Spider-Man on standby to save them.

[QUOTE=Revolutionary_Jack;4784886]These guys robbed Chitauri tech under the noses of Stark and Damage Control for 8 years without no one being the wiser, until one of Vulture's goons made the mistake of selling it to low-scale street hoodlums.



The same Tony Stark who thought Ultron would put a suit of armor around the world only for that to blow up in his face.
The same Tony Stark who thought he privatized world peace since no one can replicate his tech until Ivan Vanko did and blew up in his face.
The same Tony Stark who thought Mandarin was a loser and told him about his home address on TV and got his home blown up and nearly got Pepper killed.

Stark has poor judgment in the MCU. The movies bend over backwards to make him work as a voice of reason because they have to deny the character is an a--hole because he's a protected character owing to the actor playing him. So even if he's negligent and ignorant and dismissive in Homecoming and Far From Home, he can never actually be called out for that.

Making Tony Stark a mentor figure was a colossal mistake for the MCU overall. It weakens the characters.



Vulture had his suit and weapons on that Ferry and in fact it was that weapon which he unleashed on exposure that caused that Ferry to break.

If the FBI cornered him, Vulture and others would unleash their weapons on them, and most likely cause collateral damage only without Spider-Man on standby to save them.[/QUOTE]

Dude, we get it: you hate Iron Man.

[QUOTE=WebSlingWonder;4782954]Jack, why do you have such a haggling against a shared universe? Not everyone wants Spider-Man to be in complete isolation. When it works, it works well of course, but being isolationist is not the end-all and be all to Spidey.

And also, you're bashing the other Marvel heroes as if they're beneath Spidey. People happen to like those other heroes, you know.[/QUOTE]

That's something I wonder too, because I love the shared MU and never got his gripes about how it's just a "Gentleman's Courtesy" or it isn't needed. I think all heroes belong in the same world.

[QUOTE=Hybrid;4785216]That's something I wonder too, because I love the shared MU and never got his gripes about how it's just a "Gentleman's Courtesy" or it isn't needed. I think all heroes belong in the same world.[/QUOTE]

Shared stories and crossovers can be fun and done right, and provide entertaining stuff, for instance Secret Wars'84. But on the whole any character that's worth something, that's valuable and interesting, would be at their respective best in their own stories and genre.

There isn't a Spider-Man story in a shared universe setting that is as great and good as his solo adventures. Like okay, Secret Wars'84 is Spider-Man's best showing in a Marvel-wide crossover (and it's the first one so it's been downhill since then) but I wouldn't really put it among the great Spider-man stories (mostly because it's a Doctor Doom story). The best Spider-Man stories work so well that you accept that Peter is the only superhero in that world. And that is how it should be.

Go to Raimi's Spider-Man 1, and that movie works better with Spider-Man as the only hero in that world. Likewise, Weisman's Spectacular Spider-Man cartoon. In an adaptation, you had a freedom to let the characters breathe freely. With the X-Men movies with Fox, like [I]Logan[/I] especially, it works far better with them as solo than with any other Marvel universe references.

[QUOTE=Revolutionary_Jack;4785275]Shared stories and crossovers can be fun and done right, and provide entertaining stuff.[/QUOTE]

I would hope so. That does encompass the entirety of the Marvel Universe after all.

[QUOTE=Revolutionary_Jack;4785275]There isn't a Spider-Man story in a shared universe setting that is as great and good as his solo adventures.[/QUOTE]

The Death of Jean DeWolff would be proof to the contrary, as perhaps the definitive Spidey/DD story.

Nothing Stops the Juggernaut as well, with Spidey in a classic battle - a character defining battle - against not one of his rogue gallery but the X-Men's.

[QUOTE=Revolutionary_Jack;4785275]The best Spider-Man stories work so well that you accept that Peter is the only superhero in that world. And that is how it should be.[/QUOTE]

Really?

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No one has accepted Spider-Man as the only superhero in his world since Amazing Fantasy #15. And somehow it's tended to work out just fine.

It's not like being the only superhero in his world made the '70s Nicholas Hammond show great by default. So that quality of having Spidey be unique or isolated, in and of itself, is not essential to a great Spidey story. There's been great Spidey stories where he works alone - or where he is, in fact, a singular superhero - and there's also great Spidey stories where he's very much a part of the superhero community.

[QUOTE=Prof. Warren;4785360]The Death of Jean DeWolff would be proof to the contrary, as perhaps the definitive Spidey/DD story.

Nothing Stops the Juggernaut as well, with Spidey in a classic battle - a character defining battle - against not one of his rogue gallery but the X-Men's. [/quote]

Yeah but neither example is what I am talking about. I am talking about Spider-Man in stories like Secret Wars or stuff in that scale, or his appearances in Avengers titles. Two-hander stories with Spider-Man teaming up with Daredevil or Human Torch and so on, is not what I mean, nor are ones where Spider-Man individually fights villains outside his rogues gallery. In stories like The Death of Jean DeWolff, it is still largely centered on Peter and his world, with Daredevil there as a sounding board or Foil. It's not a real crossover, because the characters and situations deal with Peter's supporting cast (Captain DeWolff, Jonah and others) rather than a meld of Peter's world with Matt's.

[quote]No one has accepted Spider-Man as the only superhero in his world since Amazing Fantasy #15. And somehow it's tended to work out just fine. [/quote]

Because creators like Ditko and others pushed back as much as they could to make Spider-Man distinct. The Fantastic Four showed up in the first issue for promotional rather than creative reasons, and Ditko was never entirely happy about all the cameos and guest-stars that Lee and others wanted, and if you read TASM#1 most of it is a set-up for J. Jonah Jameson's relationship with Spider-Man and Peter. In fact in one issue, where Lee wanted Ditko to have the HT against his will, he instead had Johnny and Peter argue so much that the Sandman who they were chasing ends up being caught by a cop which was Ditko's way of rebelling against Lee's forced team-up fixation.

And to reiterate, ask anyone which element of that first issue, is more defining for the franchise...the FF or Jonah vis-a-vis Spider-Man, and the answer will always be Jonah. Jonah after all shows up magnificently in the middle of Spider-Man 1, right after the first act which covers Peter's origin (which mirrors the history of the comics quite well).

[quote]So that quality of having Spidey be unique or isolated, in and of itself, is not essential to a great Spidey story. [/quote]

But it's central to most of Spider-Man's best stories. I mean read The Master Planner Saga, there's not a single mention or reference, that I am aware of, to any other hero in the Marvel Universe in that story. Nor in The Night Gwen Stacy Died. KLH...well there's one mention of Captain America when Kraven talks about beating Vermin who neither Peter nor Cap beat mano-e-mano...but that's fairly minor.


I am not against Spider-Man having the odd team-up and I am not saying there aren't, or can't ever be, great Peter Parker stories that only work with a shared universe. To my mind, JMS did that Doomed Affairs (TASM #50v2) where Captain America and Doctor Doom's presence is somehow important to a story about Peter and Mary Jane's marriage. It's one example of a story which is a Peter Parker, Spider-Man and Marvel Universe story at the same time, and that's really what I am talking about.

Actually, just a small correction: The Night Gwen Stacy Died took place just after Spidey returned from Canada where he had a battle with the Hulk, and got a cold from it that weakened him in the battle against Goblin. You know, the one. So while it wasn't a big part, the shared universe did play into that story.

Anyways, the shared universe aspect of Marvel goes back to Day 1. Stan Lee made Marvel stand out because they not only had a continuity, but they shared a world with each other, where DC had neither one (forcing them to adapt). Many elements spun out of the Fantastic Four such as Doctor Doom/Latveria, Galactus and the Heralds, the Inhumans, the Moloids, Namor/Atlantis (canonized through FF after Timely), Black Panther/Wakanda, the Kree, the Skrulls, and The Negative Zone. Spider-Man's first issue of his titled series had him meeting the FF. Daredevil's second issue was him fighting Spidey rogue Electro. Hawkeye (Iron Man villain), Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch (X-Men villains) became Avengers. The Avengers themselves were a group of different heroes that were formed to fight Thor villain Loki. The comics in general commonly referenced each other and clearly took place in the same world.

I never felt like Spider-Man was the only hero of his world. I never feel like the X-Men are the only ones of there's for a similar comparison. They all get along pretty well, and Spider-Man has had great stories where it was just him and his cast, and great stories where outside elements were involved. What matters is how they're written.