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Kate does what has to be done. To me, this actually means, she overcame the traumas of her past - mostly - and became what she needed to be.
Bruce may not need to be that - or a part of him can never overcome the trauma the way Kate has.
Cass is experiencing something similar to Batman when he losed Jason Todd for the Joker... But she is only one adolescent.. Poor..
I like Steph design here..
BATMAN: NO WEAPONS.
Well, this all seems pretty good as a follow up. I hope that all of the characters get their moments.
Yep. Knew Batman would go off on Kate. Especially when she used a gun to kill him. I don't think the death sticks though. It would be easy to bring him back.
That's bull****! No way that death sticks. I'm calling it now!
I just don't believe it. Nah...:p
Yeah and Kate IS that CHICK. She will always do what SHE thinks needs to be done. Now whether it's what needed to be done or in what way is debatable.
[QUOTE=The Whovian;3437299]Yep. Knew Batman would go off on Kate. Especially when she used a gun to kill him. I don't think the death sticks though. It would be easy to bring him back.[/QUOTE]
I mean, I think Clayface will absolutely come back. I just don't think it will be in Tynion's run, or within the next year. BUT I thought the same thing about Lincoln March, and I was super wrong about that. UGH. I hate Robin War so much for spitting on Batman Eternal.
Kate doesnt seem very sad that someone she has been on a team with just died. I get the whole justify the ends thing but pretty cold!
[QUOTE=Katana500;3437817]Kate doesnt seem very sad that someone she has been on a team with just died. I get the whole justify the ends thing but pretty cold![/QUOTE]
Well, she's not [I]happy[/I], either.
[QUOTE=Katana500;3437817]Kate doesnt seem very sad that someone she has been on a team with just died. I get the whole justify the ends thing but pretty cold![/QUOTE]
Kate's too military to get emotional like that. As Caivu said she's not happy, but from her perspective she is still "on mission".
[QUOTE=WhipWhirlwind;3437858]Kate's too military to get emotional like that. As Caivu said she's not happy, but from her perspective she is still "on mission".[/QUOTE]
Exactly. She didn't break down when Tim "died" or when Luke and JPV got impaled and captured, for pretty much the same reasons.
It's a neat story note but the trick is going to be in the execution. If Bruce & Co. try to pull the whole moral high ground angle I'm gonna be like, YEAH, Bruce, you've literally given Jason Todd a "just not when you're in Gotham" pass when it comes to executing criminals. YEAH, Bruce, it got to be a life and death situation and your 13 year old little boy KILLED Nobody. KILLED Doctor Dedalus. And hell, it wasn't even remotely life or death and Damian KILLED The Spook. Batman has lots of friends he doesn't give a hard time about having to make the hard choice of lethality, and Kate is military, not some weird zen "it's okay if I break all the bones as long as nobody dies" weirdo. Not only that but his fiancee is probably going to have a more nuanced look at it, and hopefully gets him thinking more about it in a way that's not so black and white.
Which isn't me disagreeing with how rad Batman's "no kill policy" is, it's just like, me thinking Batman's policy is you know ... HIS policy. Not hers. Or even anyone else's. His Justice buds are all generally like trying every heroic option to make sure that nobody dies ... but they come up against "kill or be killed" or "kill or a lot of people die" all the time and definitely don't make stretch themselves to the breaking point like Batman does when it comes to fretting about the decision to use lethal means.
And further, Kate isn't one of Batman's pupils, she's a peer. So like ... preachy-preachy ain't gonna work - though the argument will be there that she chose to adopt his "flag" before she even knew he was Bruce, and she and her dad definitely were pretty strictly using the "Batman No Kill Rule" as standard operating procedure. (ALTHOUGH it's totally telling now that Jake founding The Colony and wanting her in was total foreshadowing for this happening. Much like Batman's unmasking in the first issue is also foreshadowing for the important fact that they're peers and she's on his level. In fact, a LOT of this run up to this point has been leading up to this logically.)
Anyway, I'm sure we'll get some proper cliche, moral speechifying and platitudes from this story beat - my hope is that Tynion really subverts expectations and takes those "oh noes Batman doesn't like killing" just utterly derivative cliches and does something different with them. That said - when it comes to future solicit materials and stuff like this, if there's a rift in the team along the lines of a justifiable kill, it does make total sense to me that Jean-Paul of all people would side with Kate. I mean, that bit is just plain obvious. So I guess I'm more curious about Luke's thoughts on the subject. As a numbers and statistics guy I suppose he might find it just to be the most efficient thing. And I gotta say, once Clayface goes full Kaiju and thousands of people are going to die ... I don't think I disagree with Kate, either.
So for me the ideal story beat is going to be that Tim in particular, and Cass because she liked Clayface and killed once and abhors killing because of it, are going to be hardcore No Kill Policy preachers here, really echoing their mentor ... but I actually hope to see Bruce be more sophisticated and really be torn. Not like, "personally wounded" from it, just torn. Definitely more pensive and introspective about it, and weirdly less preachy, while it's his proteges that are really going nuts with the judgmental behavior. In the Robin camp itself I'd say you know, Jason obviously is going to be like "yeah, she made the right call", Damian will fall in that line but indicate that he prefers now to find a different solution, Tim will be the hardcore Batman Rule guy, and Dick will have a more nuanced take on it like Bruce does, but will also fall in the "I wish you could have found a different way" camp.
Someone like Babs wouldn't like it but might understand it - for her, not you know, just assassinating the Joker or something, seems like adherence to idealism or some kind of self-discipline. Helena on the other hand will just be like "yup. You made the right call." Dinah I'm not sure. Dinah's a Big League superhero so she might always see crazy ways to solve monster situations with minimal damage. Bette ... I'm not sure where Bette will fall because we're not sure where she's at in her life in general right now!
Other Bat-Family members that aren't "distant relatives?" Alfred has defended Wayne Manor with a shotgun before, and you don't see Bruce judging him. Self-defense and all that. Gordon? Won't like that it's a vigilante doing a killing - should've turned that weapon over to a cop and let them make the call.
Steph I'm really curious about. No clue where she might fall. I tend to think, because I'm still rolling with the BQM idealist Steph, she'll be right there with Tim.
So thinking out loud, or in text-form, aside, I guess I think that it's possible to do interesting things with this storyline, but am cautious in that regard, because lots of stories like this turn really, really boilerplate/cliche/derivative, very, very fast.
[QUOTE=K. Jones;3438646]It's a neat story note but the trick is going to be in the execution. If Bruce & Co. try to pull the whole moral high ground angle I'm gonna be like, YEAH, Bruce, you've literally given Jason Todd a "just not when you're in Gotham" pass when it comes to executing criminals. YEAH, Bruce, it got to be a life and death situation and your 13 year old little boy KILLED Nobody. KILLED Doctor Dedalus. And hell, it wasn't even remotely life or death and Damian KILLED The Spook. Batman has lots of friends he doesn't give a hard time about having to make the hard choice of lethality, and Kate is military, not some weird zen "it's okay if I break all the bones as long as nobody dies" weirdo. Not only that but his fiancee is probably going to have a more nuanced look at it, and hopefully gets him thinking more about it in a way that's not so black and white.[/QUOTE]
Not to mention Bruce himself almost put a knife through Riddler's face. In the [I]best[/I] case, that's no different from what Kate did here: justifiable homicide, killing to prevent more death. I [I]really[/I] want that addressed, but unless Selina's involved, I don't know how it could be. All of this needs to be addressed, actually. Why is it okay for some and not others?
There's another element that could come into play: Julia Pennyworth. Part of what Batman specifically tasked her with on her mission with Kate was reporting on her, including if she ever killed. And Kate suspects this. So it's not like this is something totally out of left field for Bruce.
[QUOTE]And further, Kate isn't one of Batman's pupils, she's a peer. So like ... preachy-preachy ain't gonna work - though the argument will be there that she chose to adopt his "flag" before she even knew he was Bruce, and she and her dad definitely were pretty strictly using the "Batman No Kill Rule" as standard operating procedure.[/QUOTE]
This is where I think the bulk of the conflict is going to come from. It [I]is[/I] her Bat... but it's still a Bat. And you wear a Bat in Gotham, you don't kill. Legally and morally, she's in the clear. So this is probably going to be more of a "fit for service" sort of thing.
[QUOTE]So for me the ideal story beat is going to be that Tim in particular, and Cass because she liked Clayface and killed once and abhors killing because of it, are going to be hardcore No Kill Policy preachers here, really echoing their mentor ... but I actually hope to see Bruce be more sophisticated and really be torn. Not like, "personally wounded" from it, just torn.[/QUOTE]
I would actually love it if the reason he's being harder on her is because she's family, but then that gets into the problem of Damian, like you mentioned.
[QUOTE]Someone like Babs wouldn't like it but might understand it - for her, not you know, just assassinating the Joker or something, seems like adherence to idealism or some kind of self-discipline. Helena on the other hand will just be like "yup. You made the right call." Dinah I'm not sure. Dinah's a Big League superhero so she might always see crazy ways to solve monster situations with minimal damage. Bette ... I'm not sure where Bette will fall because we're not sure where she's at in her life in general right now![/QUOTE]
Babs struggled a bit with this very thing early in the New 52, and she's the daughter of a cop, [I]and[/I] likes Kate, so I agree there. Same with Helena, and Dinah being more of a wildcard. Bette's interesting. She looks up to Kate a great deal, and [I]is[/I] training for the Army... but only as a stepping stone for vigilante work.
[QUOTE]Other Bat-Family members that aren't "distant relatives?" Alfred has defended Wayne Manor with a shotgun before, and you don't see Bruce judging him. Self-defense and all that. Gordon? Won't like that it's a vigilante doing a killing - should've turned that weapon over to a cop and let them make the call.
Steph I'm really curious about. No clue where she might fall. I tend to think, because I'm still rolling with the BQM idealist Steph, she'll be right there with Tim.[/QUOTE]
Agreed.
There are certain things about Kate that might mark her as cold in her dealings with people that maybe she shouldn't be so cold with. It is actually a thing I like about her, the vulnerability from having such serious trauma happen to her over her life.
I often felt she was pretty cold and harsh when she tried to train her cousin Bette, who by all accounts "adored" Kate (big sister she never had?).
If you're old enough you may have read or saw the movie based on "The Yearling", some literary prize winner as well as feted movie too, from the '40s I believe. The mother of the young boy who takes the baby deer in, cannot get emotionally close to this child and is harsh (its also poor Southern folks/times).
Later it is explained that all her previous children had died young and she didn't/couldn't get attached to the boy; she feared if she loved him, she would lose him too.
Kate is sorta like that to me. Not so much with Jacob of course, and all of that is merited.
BTW, I tend to let the comics batch up for me; I no longer live very near the comic store that has faithfully pulled them for me, for many years; so I'm behind on the last 2 issues at least.
But they're always worth waiting for.
** I came for Batwoman, but I stayed for Bette **
Thanks for a definitely astute summation of the situation.
I'm looking forward to Cass' reaction, having recently lost her mother and now loosing Clayface and Kate. I'm also hoping they put in some proper consequences this time. no half hearted forgiveness or a telling off. If the death sticks then Kate just killed a person and there should be consequences both moral and legal. I agree with doing what needs to be done, but equally you have to face the consequences of your actions, I doubt any of this will happen though considering the only hard evidence is a bullet and mound of clay but it would definitely make the book more interesting.
[QUOTE=lucius121;3439307]I'm also hoping they put in some proper consequences this time. no half hearted forgiveness or a telling off. If the death sticks then Kate just killed a person and there should be consequences both moral and legal. I agree with doing what needs to be done, but equally you have to face the consequences of your actions, I doubt any of this will happen though considering the only hard evidence is a bullet and mound of clay but it would definitely make the book more interesting.[/QUOTE]
Well, we already know that happens, due to solicits. Legally, she's in the clear, since this falls under justifiable homicide. So then whatever those consequences are won't be legal ones.
[QUOTE=Caivu;3439460]Well, we already know that happens, due to solicits. Legally, she's in the clear, since this falls under justifiable homicide. So then whatever those consequences are won't be legal ones.[/QUOTE]
I don't mean I want Kate to go to jail but even if it's justifiable homicide that has to be decided by a court. I haven't looked at any solicits so I don't really know what happening in future issues.
[QUOTE=lucius121;3439581]I don't mean I want Kate to go to jail but even if it's justifiable homicide that has to be decided by a court.[/QUOTE]
Sure, but I'm meaning more in terms of the audience. We were shown enough to say that confidently.
[QUOTE]I haven't looked at any solicits so I don't really know what happening in future issues.[/QUOTE]
Then I'll not spoil it except to say there's going to be significant consequences from this.
Could she shoot Tim next, lol. The next page is gonna interesting. Because Tim in his wanna be Robin getup, telling Batwoman how they do things like he has any authority over her is a interesting move. I swear what i wouldn't give for the next line out of Kate's mouth to be "**** off, little boy".
I'm hoping for the opposite, I want Cass to kick Kate's ass. Tim can slap Steph, she's responsible for this too. Luke, JPV and Bruce can just watch, its pretty much all they do anyway.
[spoil]I was thinking Batwoman would get taken into Batfamily custody and held in the Belfry again, going either willingly or unwillingly, but no. So that implies that she's either voluntarily going to come back for the trial thing or it's going to be done completely without her present. I'm not sure which I like more. The first would mean she accepts the consequences of her actions, and it's clear she does, but her reasoning is already pretty clear, so to spend an oversized issue on that... I dunno. I did like that she's pretty accepting of her "administrative leave", all things considered; it's special circumstances, and it's sensible to give everyone some cooling off time and not antagonize them further. This functional house arrest also means that on some level, Bruce knows she's not a loose cannon. That said, her not going into some kind of custody is pretty odd.
I'm guessing we'll get the public's reaction to Clayface's death next issue.
The scene with Jacob was a nice callback to when he first gave Kate her Batwoman suit, and I loved that she did not look at all enthusiastic about the Colony symbol. It also seems clear he's willing to say anything to her at this point to get her on the Colony, because he's almost flat-out bullshitting her here.
The ending has some pretty big implications:](#spoilers "Did Brother Eye plan all this? The future can be accelerated? And if so, does that mean it can be stopped? I don't know what to make of it yet.[/spoil]
[QUOTE=Caivu;3450299][spoil]I was thinking Batwoman would get taken into Batfamily custody and held in the Belfry again, going either willingly or unwillingly, but no. So that implies that she's either voluntarily going to come back for the trial thing or it's going to be done completely without her present. I'm not sure which I like more. The first would mean she accepts the consequences of her actions, and it's clear she does, but her reasoning is already pretty clear, so to spend an oversized issue on that... I dunno. I did like that she's pretty accepting of her "administrative leave", all things considered; it's special circumstances, and it's sensible to give everyone some cooling off time and not antagonize them further. This functional house arrest also means that on some level, Bruce knows she's not a loose cannon. That said, her not going into some kind of custody is pretty odd.
I'm guessing we'll get the public's reaction to Clayface's death next issue.
The scene with Jacob was a nice callback to when he first gave Kate her Batwoman suit, and I loved that she did not look at all enthusiastic about the Colony symbol. It also seems clear he's willing to say anything to her at this point to get her on the Colony, because he's almost flat-out bullshitting her here.
The ending has some pretty big implications:](#spoilers "Did Brother Eye plan all this? The future can be accelerated? And if so, does that mean it can be stopped? I don't know what to make of it yet.[/spoil][/QUOTE]
Very strong issue. Lots of genuine, natural tension between the members of the team.
[spoil] Yeah, I can see that Jacob is manipulating her to join him. I would imagine the public reaction will be...mostly positive? He was a monster, after all. Unless this is more fuel for a potential DC civil war. It is odd that she's not in custody; that'd be the Batman way. As for the ending, yeah that has some big implications. Accelerating the future? That doesn't bode well. [/spoil]
Cass was definitely my favourite this issue. I definitely can't wait to see what happens next.
[QUOTE=Katana500;3450574]Cass was definitely my favourite this issue. I definitely can't wait to see what happens next.[/QUOTE]
[spoil] She was great. I loved the moment when she ripped the Bat logo off Kate's costume. [/spoil]
Now this was a nice issue. Great Cass moments too.
They seem to have focused on Glory (is that her name) any chance she becomes Lady Clayface we saw in Doomsday Clock?
I'm really, really torn on this issue - which feels surprising to me, since I've been fully onboard for nearly every single issue up till now. While there is some really strong stuff with Cass, Kate, and Tim, Steph really got shafted here. Last issue, though I thought it was a bit rushed, she decided that she was where she needed to be, instead of going off with Anarky.
But here? She's all "I can't watch you become evil, Tim. Peace out." It's consistent with what's gone before, but it's complete whiplash from last issue, and I'm really, really irritated that Tynion's writing her off AGAIN.
[QUOTE=Katana500;3450705]They seem to have focused on Glory (is that her name) any chance she becomes Lady Clayface we saw in Doomsday Clock?[/QUOTE]
That seems unlikely given the events of this issue. And yes, Mudface's name is Glory Griffin (from the Tec Annual two weeks ago).
I saw the last image of this chapter in INSIDEPULSE...
Brother Eye(another problem, created for batman) is controlling that idiot?
[QUOTE=adrikito;3450930]I saw the last image of this chapter in INSIDEPULSE...
Brother Eye(another problem, created for batman) is controlling that idiot?[/QUOTE]
I don't think so - Brother Eye seems to be working with, not controlling, the General.
As Jason somewhat said in the latest arc.
"Brother Eye? Another one of your shit ready to blow over, Bruce man?"
You know it!
I hate saying this but this book needs a new writer. Unless this story ends with them all back together at the end (highly unlikely at this point) then its time for a change before its to late. No one wants to see a Tim become evil batman. No wants to see Batwoman become a villain in her book or this. Its time to stop. Its time for people to drop this book to get people at DC to realize he making big mistake. I have.
[QUOTE=Supermutant2099;3451005]I hate saying this but this book needs a new writer. Unless this story ends with them all back together at the end (highly unlikely at this point) then its time for a change before its to late. No one wants to see a Tim become evil batman. No wants to see Batwoman become a villain in her book or this. Its time to stop. Its time for people to drop this book to get people at DC to realize he making big mistake. I have.[/QUOTE]
Since the ending of this issue implies that the future can be changed, I doubt Tim's going to actually become his evil future self. And Batwoman's not becoming a villain, like, at all. There's nothing that points to that.
[QUOTE=Caivu;3451016]Since the ending of this issue implies that the future can be changed, I doubt Tim's going to actually become his evil future self. And Batwoman's not becoming a villain, like, at all. There's nothing that points to that.[/QUOTE]
I agree - I don't see Tim even going as far as Jason in terms of anti-hero. Unless Lobdell gets him again. ;)
I think it's clear that Batwoman and the Batfamily are going to be antagonists, but I don't think she's a villain. But I agree with Caivu that the Colony isn't a villainous organization, either, which I think is still controversial with the wider fandom.
There is some different sides to the story that will make for meaty story telling in the future.
Cass definitely has a chance to get an arc out of this. Reminds me of how when Barb removed her own symbol so I think they share the same moral code. Really hope they get to meet and form a relationship soon.
[QUOTE=millernumber1;3450726]I'm really, really torn on this issue - which feels surprising to me, since I've been fully onboard for nearly every single issue up till now. While there is some really strong stuff with Cass, Kate, and Tim, Steph really got shafted here. Last issue, though I thought it was a bit rushed, she decided that she was where she needed to be, instead of going off with Anarky.
But here? She's all "I can't watch you become evil, Tim. Peace out." It's consistent with what's gone before, but it's complete whiplash from last issue, and I'm really, really irritated that Tynion's writing her off AGAIN.[/QUOTE]
I maintain tht Steph has been nothing but terrible since Tec started. All she has is inconsistent drama about Tim or something else thats dumb. I really wish the two never got back together becuase it has been a drag. Not sure if better or worse than Batwing and JPV with their one lines/page every other issue.
[SPOIL] There's the self-righteous jerk Batman that some writers are fond of but I HATE!! That's the problem with these types of debates in comics, not just Batman but superhero comics in-general. They're almost never written fairly or believably. One side is the "realist" who makes actual logical arguments, and the other are a bunch of emotional A-holes using strawman arguments but acting all self-righteous about it. You CAN make this argument more balanced, but many writers simply fail to do so.
Bruce and co, have no real good counter-argument here (or if they do the writer fails to convey it). Also Bruce should know that, as an ex-soldier, Kate wouldn't have the same qualms about using lethal force if necessary as he does. She's been trained to do that after all.
He comes across like a douche who puts his own self-righteous "code" above logic or the lives of innocent people. I'm 100% on Kate's side in this. [/SPOIL]
So guys, I remember Scott Snyder saying there were plans for Harper to be in a new team book last year in a interview..with the split up in this issue of detective and the rumor peter tomasi is taking over the book, I really am thinking we will get a gotham knights book with tim,cassandra,stephanie and harper row soon.
[QUOTE=millernumber1;3451060]I agree - I don't see Tim even going as far as Jason in terms of anti-hero. [B]Unless Lobdell gets him again.[/B] ;)[/QUOTE]
Do you want me to have a heart attack? Nobody can be this cruel! It would be much more merciful if you put Tim into the ground and bury him alive. Or maybe you should just shoot him like a rabid dog. :D