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The biggest problem with Cyborg--aside from perhaps not being the character DC should have pushed at all, for various reasons--is that he was pushed for the wrong reasons. He was only pushed because DC felt they needed a black character on the JL. That doesn't sound like a bad reason, but it's pretty clear no one at DC really had a [B]worthwhile story[/B] for him. Diversity is great, but it's empty and not worth a damn if there is no substance to back it up. Before DC put Cyborg on the League, they should have mapped out specifically what they wanted to do with him and where they wanted to take him, instead of just completely pantsing it (that's a writer term for kind of winging it and just seeing what will happen, which isn't necessarily bad, but as we've seen with Cyborg, it can be).
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[QUOTE=Vampire Savior;4719442]The biggest problem with Cyborg--aside from perhaps not being the character DC should have pushed at all, for various reasons--is that he was pushed for the wrong reasons. He was only pushed because DC felt they needed a black character on the JL. That doesn't sound like a bad reason, but it's pretty clear no one at DC really had a [B]worthwhile story[/B] for him. Diversity is great, but it's empty and not worth a damn if there is no substance to back it up. Before DC put Cyborg on the League, they should have mapped out specifically what they wanted to do with him and where they wanted to take him, instead of just completely pantsing it (that's a writer term for kind of winging it and just seeing what will happen, which isn't necessarily bad, but as we've seen with Cyborg, it can be).[/QUOTE]
So much of what I liked about Cyborg back in the day stemmed from his relationship with Gar, and, IMO, both characters have suffered since that friendship was retconned / abandoned. Gar's kind of flitted about, been shipped with Raven, gone back and forth to the Doom Patrol, changed colors, etc. And Victor has completely changed.
The integration of Mother Box / Apokaliptan tech into Cyborg was a neat step to take, but I feel like it could have happened to the pre-existing character, via some assimilation of that tech (or assimilation of Victor *by* that tech, more likely, with the intent of making him an unwilling participant in some invasion by Darkseid, a sort of mobile gateway he could manuever into a secure or hard to reach place and open a Boom Tube to send the troops into what had been deemed a 'safe' or secure location), rather than be the origin story of a new Cyborg who has his original backstory and history with the Titans expunged. "Hey, we are going to push this pre-existing character. Step one will be to destroy anything that anyone ever knew or liked about him! Genius!"
If the League needed a black character (and it surely could use a few less white faces...), I'd have preferred John Stewart (with Hal Jordan remaining the Specter, and relevant for big cosmic events, which happen pretty much every year anyway), or Black Lightning or some lesser used character like Amazing Man. (Icon, Mr. Terrific and Steel, IMO, feel redundant on a team with Superman and Batman, whose niches they step all over, and would just get overshadowed.) And if someone is going to replace Martian Manhunter as the floating seventh, I'd prefer it be another woman, since six dudes and a single lady sounds like a bad porno plot. Hawkwoman or Black Canary or Vixen.
Or we could just have a black Justice League with a token white person. Mix things up. Superman role - Val Zod, Icon, Steel, Batman role - Batwing, Mr. Terrific, Wonder Woman role - Nubia, Green Lantern role - John Stewart, Flash role - Wallace West, XS, Aquaman role - Jackson Hyde, floating seventh - token white chick (Black Canary, Hawkwoman, Zatanna, Icemaiden) :)
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[QUOTE=Sutekh;4719978]So much of what I liked about Cyborg back in the day stemmed from his relationship with Gar, and, IMO, both characters have suffered since that friendship was retconned / abandoned. Gar's kind of flitted about, been shipped with Raven, gone back and forth to the Doom Patrol, changed colors, etc. And Victor has completely changed.[/quote]
Removing Cyborg from the Titans was foolish simply on grounds of people recognizing and associating him with that group of characters. There was no real impetus to put him on the League other than DC being like, "Uh oh. I guess we need a black guy. Don't want to use John Stewart because he's an alternate. Don't want to use Black Lightning because of rights. Cyborg, you're up!"
The fans weren't asking for it.
DC didn't really want to do it. I feel I'm at least a bit familiar with Geoff Johns' tendencies, and I'm confident that he would just have the original line up if he could.
And no one had a great story for him to help justify that decision.
He was just black.
That's just not a good enough reason to put him in the spotlight like that when he's not equipped or ready for it. That kind of shows DC doesn't (or at least didn't) take diversity all that seriously. You can't just carelessly throw a black character at people--who's mostly a robot no less--and call it a day. Not if you actually want people to be engaged with your character and their stories.
At the end of the day, all DC did was shine a massive, glaring spotlight on all the deficiencies of Cyborg, and in effect, all the black characters that he was chosen over. Despite all the direct to DVD appearances, the movie appearance, the toys, the Injustice games, the two ongoing comic series, and whatever else, Cyborg's promotion has done the character A LOT more damage than it has good.
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How about Black characters being honored with their own Trininy status or the other "minority" races for that matter. They are already some top characters who are black even if not BM/Supes/WW status yet. My picks:
Cyborg
GL John Stewart
Aqualad-Kaldur
Ideally I would have loved some female characters in there, but none have had their profiles raised as much.
Vixen would be awesome, if she could get more focus and presence.
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[QUOTE=HunterX;4734766]How about Black characters being honored with their own Trininy status or the other "minority" races for that matter. They are already some top characters who are black even if not BM/Supes/WW status yet. My picks:
Cyborg
GL John Stewart
Aqualad-Kaldur
Ideally I would have loved some female characters in there, but none have had their profiles raised as much.
Vixen would be awesome, if she could get more focus and presence.[/QUOTE]
I would go with John Stewart, Mal Duncan, & Vykin. As far as I know, those were the first three black heroes at DC.
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HBO's Watchmen does what DC's comics division couldn't. The black characters most deserving of Trinity status are Hooded Justice and Sister Night.
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[QUOTE=Midnight_v;4696657]So...
[B]What would you read if it was on the shelves? I kinda feel like that's a relevant question because sometimes I feel like I hear more "That'll never work." than
"MAN! I'd BUY 2 OF THAT EVERY TIME IT HIT THE SHELVES!"[/B]
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[QUOTE=Anthony Shaw;4698680]Batman's niche was the detective, non-powered badass. Only Grant (and DCAU) pulled off the Bat-god mode, imo.
A competent writer should have no problem with Batman & Cyborg being two separate entities. If anything, Batman would seek to upgrade his bat-computer to emulate Cyborg.
A chameleon mode would rectify Cyborg's appearance problem, and enable wish fulfillment. [B]He should be able to change shape at will[/B]. He should have a very sleek look in Cyborg mode (unless he was in an all-out war).
Visually, artists should have a field's day with Cyborg.
Like the Iron Man armor gets regular upgrades & redesigns, the same should be done with Vic.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Sutekh;4700907]Some sort of ultra-tech (Apocalyptican?) that could, with the flip of switch, allow an armored carapace to perfectly mimic human flesh, would be the ideal solution, IMO, and could spawn from some sort of deep cover plot where normal looking people turn out to be para-demons in disguise, infiltrating various places to get in place for a surprise invasion. The tech gets introduced with these para-demon infiltrators, and Cyborg gets upgraded after some of his last biological surface components are burnt / blasted / damaged, leaving mostly internal stuff (like his brain) organic. Big clunky robot-looking Cyborg, all metal, but with a swarm of nanites, his metal skin can plasticize and he 'turns human' (looking, and feeling, and to superficial physical scans / biometrics, as his machinery feeds false data to machines scanning him) and can have a more or less 'normal' life, although, even when he looks and feels soft and fleshy and human, his body is still insanely durable (and mostly inorganic)...
Any time when he's expositing, he can transform his face, and only his face, or even cover part of his organic-looking face with a translucent armored faceplate that is barely visible, if he wants to keep his 'face' visible during a firefight, for some reason (to convince someone of his essential humanity, or reassure civilians / hostages / disaster survivors who might be freaked out by a heavily armed 'robot terminator' walking up to them).[/QUOTE]
The only DC product i *know* i'd pay handsomely for is a well written Cyborg comic where the character no longer has the current face plate and has replaced it with a fully human face [I]and [/I]the ability to shape shift his entire body (...like he can shape shift his arms to form weapons). I'd sign up for an annual up front subscription to that type of Cyborg title.
I'd also buy a John Stewart title but i'd be far more enthusiastic about a Cyborg title.
With regard to who can achieve Trinity status (which i choose to interpret as "Who can achieve Trinity level popularity?") - it's between the 2 characters who keep showing up in modern toylines consistently:
[ATTACH=CONFIG]93985[/ATTACH]
Of the 2 as they are .. John Stewart is closer to having a major breakthrough in the mainstream public consciousness.
With the modifications / tweaks mentioned ad nauseam in many threads on many comic forum websites CYBORG would be a [I]much [/I]bigger success. When it comes to Cyborg i've felt for some time that DC is "stepping over dollars to pick up nickels".
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From a movie and TV standpoint John could probably have a chance but it depends on what is meant by "Trinity". Going by statements regarding the DCEU Green Lantern movie and the HBO show, DC seems more invested in the GL franchise as an ensemble, which isn't necessarily the same as being a strong solo lead, which all the Trinity members are. John in outside media will at best be a part of a buddy cop team, splitting development with either Hal or Jessica. Whether or not that will be enough to put him over with casuals and black fans remains to be seen.
And as far as the comics are concerned I don't ever see him overtaking Hal as the most prominent and successful Green Lantern, as few of the major concepts or rogues are attached to him in any meaningful way. Perhaps a compromise can be reached where Hal is sequestered to Earth while John plays with all his toys in deep space but there really is no perfect solution that won't piss off fans of the other human GLs. The field is too crowded for John to be the undisputed face of the Green Lantern franchise in the comics.
Cyborg isn't a bad choice as he could easily be transitioned into a Wolverine-like IP, a character from an established team franchise embarking on independent adventures and engaging with the broader comic universe. Unfortunately, they don't want to make the changes necessary to elevate him to that level, as him being an emasculated, unattractive, mopey Frankenstein won't entice readers of any race. But there's potential if they changed up his look and personality while going all in on the Digital Universe as a relevant concept in the DCU. The chances of that happening seem slim though, especially with the failure of the Justice League film. I wouldn't be surprised if DC was getting ready to move him back to the Titans whenever the next reboot comes around so he can serve as their leader or second in command to Nightwing.
Black Lightning is probably DC's best option but he has massive issues in terms of scope and uniqueness. Even though the Black Panther film featured racial commentary, T'Challa entered mystical spirit realms, engaged in sci-fi warrior battles, and drew from spy thrillers like James Bond. The character's mythos was shown to have a breadth of sci fi and fantasy concepts that are atypical for black male leads in popular culture. Jefferson doesn't really have that because he tends to be pigeonholed into stories about superpowered gang violence whenever he's in a solo context, limiting his appeal and ability to tell bigger stories. To a certain extent it's like slavery and Jim Crow movies, it gets boring and stale. At present he's positioned more like DC's answer to Luke Cage. However, maybe some of the ideas from the TV show can make their way into the comics to make him a bigger deal. A power boost for him and his rogues wouldn't hurt either.
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To me it’s more important that a character have a well developed franchise around them then to be part of an arbitrary group like the trinity. Honestly which character would you rather be The Flash with a well developed rogue’s gallery supporting cast and setting, or Wonderwoman who is given lip service as being part of the trinity but in all honesty is one of DC’s most underutilized characters?
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[QUOTE=mathew101281;4867785]To me it’s more important that a character have a well developed franchise around them then to be part of an arbitrary group like the trinity. Honestly which character would you rather be The Flash with a well developed rogue’s gallery supporting cast and setting, or Wonderwoman who is given lip service as being part of the trinity but in all honesty is one of DC’s most underutilized characters?[/QUOTE]
Spot on.
I don't spend money on Batman, Superman or Wonder Woman product. I do/ would spend money on Cyborg , The Flash and John Stewart product.
The Trinity is of no importance to me.
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[QUOTE=Customizer;4869140]Spot on.
I don't spend money on Batman, Superman or Wonder Woman product. I do/ would spend money on Cyborg , The Flash and John Stewart product.
The Trinity is of no importance to me.[/QUOTE]
I feel the exact same way. There is no trinity to me. They’re irrelevant and I see them as mere products of incompetence.
The incompetence being that DC has leaned on them so heavily as to minimize their remaining catalogue of characters. Cap, Iron Man and Thor are the in-story big dogs over at Marvel but there are many other characters that simply eclipse them because of the effort put in to them.
Is the Joker DC’s greatest villain or is he just the one who’s gotten the most effort put into him because he’s of the Bat family?
Anything with Cyborg in a major role is bought. The only reason I’m getting a Batman book is because Black Lightning is showcased. Blue Beetle in a major role gets me. The new Far Sector GL is fire.
You can’t tell me any more new Batman stories. That well has long dried up. Same with Superman. Build up some other characters. Put them on the same in-story level as those 2.
That’s why I appreciate what’s being done in Justice League with John Stewart. He’s got as much in-story gravity as the others. If only they would have applied that same level to Vic when he was there then the Green Lantern world would be settled with Hal Jordan representing. Not saying there could only ever be just [I]one[/I] but [I]this is DC we’re talking about.[/I]
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[QUOTE=Iconic;4869325] The new Far Sector GL is fire. [/QUOTE]
Yes times a million to this. I had no idea I would ever want to read another Green Lantern story, but this, along with Wonder Twins, has been the best stuff DC has been putting out for me (for different reasons, they are totally different flavors!).
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[QUOTE=Iconic;4869325]I feel the exact same way. There is no trinity to me. TheyÂ’re irrelevant and I see them as mere products of incompetence.
The incompetence being that DC has leaned on them so heavily as to minimize their remaining catalogue of characters. Cap, Iron Man and Thor are the in-story big dogs over at Marvel but there are many other characters that simply eclipse them because of the effort put in to them.
Is the Joker DCÂ’s greatest villain or is he just the one whoÂ’s gotten the most effort put into him because heÂ’s of the Bat family?
Anything with Cyborg in a major role is bought. [B]The only reason IÂ’m getting a Batman book is because Black Lightning is showcased.[/B] Blue Beetle in a major role gets me. The new Far Sector GL is fire.
You canÂ’t tell me any more new Batman stories. That well has long dried up. Same with Superman. Build up some other characters. Put them on the same in-story level as those 2.
ThatÂ’s why I appreciate whatÂ’s being done in Justice League with John Stewart. HeÂ’s got as much in-story gravity as the others. If only they would have applied that same level to Vic when he was there then the Green Lantern world would be settled with Hal Jordan representing. Not saying there could only ever be just [I]one[/I] but [I]this is DC weÂ’re talking about.[/I][/QUOTE]
THIS.
Interestingly enough , despite Black Lightnings television show , DCAU appearances and lengthy representation in the comics, i was not particularly interested or willing to financially invest in Black Lightning until i read the "Cold Dead Hands" book.[I] I liked his visual redesign that made him look appealing so i *bought the product*. [/I] That made me pay attention to the character where as nothing else in his history did i.e. no amount of good writing is going to make me fully embrace a character who doesn't LOOK cool (see Marvel's Daredevil). I hope someone from DC is reading this.
Black Lightnings visual upgrade and fair showing in "Cold Dead Hands" made me willing to check out the character in the Batman and the Outsiders title. I don't buy Batman product. I have no interest in Batman. I bought the title because of Jefferson Pierce. I *kept* buying the title because of the way Jefferson Pierce is being showcased and represented.
The character of Jefferson Pierce was given a satisfactory level of depth , a fair and consistent showcasing of his power set and was represented in a way that i , a [I]paying [/I]consumer, felt was respectable. That's literally all it took to take me from being a non DC buying / non DC product supporting "neutral at best" fringe mainstream comic enthusiasts to [B]one that * pays for DC publishing product * .[/B] Now "rinse, wash and repeat" for Cyborg. That's all they have to do. Show the character winning.
I'm not sure which Isaac "Ike" Perlmutter clone DC has in its decision making ranks but they need to purge this person if they want a fresh stream of income.
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