How much alien, how much human, how much...?

[QUOTE=Dolores - The Worst Poster Ever;3125608]I mean what kind of personality and mindset constitutes as alien as opposed to human.[/QUOTE]

I think [i]Miracle Monday[/i] has some pretty good claims about this.

[quote=Elliot S! Maggin]The boy grew up in a universe of macrocosm and microcosm. To visit the other side of the world was, to him, what swinging on a vine across a creek was for other boys. He could see the unending dramas of underground ant colony wars and stratospheric weather front competitions as easily as he saw the mail truck barreling past the farm into town twice a day. He could alter his visual perceptions to detect waves on the entire electromagnetic spectrum, seeing alpha particles or cosmic rays as easily as he saw the visible light - but in colors that ordinary humans were incapable of imagining. He could feel the level of the day's sunspot activity when he woke up in the morning in much the same way that those around him could tell if it was raining
before they opened the shades. He could hold a conversation in one room while he listened to another one a mile away and to a radio broadcast as it flew through the air around him in microwaves. The world was his playground and campus, superhuman senses his teachers, the anonymity of the Kent home his womb and protection. He was alone in all this sense and knowledge, monumentally alone; but no less alone, he realized, than were those other Earthmen, glued to their work and trapped inside bodies that could do no more than touch the outsides of other bodies. The boy was alone, but he was never bored.[/quote]

I mean I've got serious reservations with the way Maggin bends time and physics in order to make super-hearing work on a global scale, but fundamentally I think Maggin makes his point. Kal-El is socialized to act like a human, but he isn't one. Nothing with that range of experiences- of looking at quarks, of feeling sunspots, of listening to the radio in the airwaves simultaneously with having a conversation [i]and[/i] reading a book in the next room- can really have a human mindset or perspective.

I recently started watching the television show [i]Hannibal[/i], and couldn't help but catch similarities between Dr. Lecter and Superman. No, Superman is not a serial killer, but like Hannibal, he wears a finely tuned "person suit" and pretends to be a normal man, even to his closest friends, while he subtly influences them to be more like his own true, secret self. Like Hannibal, Superman occasionally makes sly comments, meaningless to everyone but the audience, insinuating his true nature (okay, so I've also been watching Reeves' [i]Adventures of Superman[/i]). Hannibal Lecter's "person suit" is named Hannibal Lecter, only his actions make him different. Superman's, obviously is named Clark Kent.

Superman cares deeply for Clark. Hannibal's person suit is designed to help him continue his existence, without it he couldn't maintain his luxurious lifestyle. That's very much not what interests the alien Superman about Clark Kent, who's more like an in-depth thought experiment, like a hobby he's incredibly invested in. Perhaps the way that we're invested in Superman comics, haha!.

"What is it like to be human?" he wonders, and so takes many elaborate steps to find out. I think Superman must share Doctor Who's attitude toward humanity. Sure, we're stupid, we're stubborn, we do awful things, but we're also capable of such wonders, such beauty, such small compassion, that the Doctor says [URL="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UekfmVor0uc"]"I think you look like giants"[/URL]. So Superman studies us, but he also tries to see what it's like, as far as he's able, to be one of us. Clark Kent's such a well-maintained, [i]lovingly[/i] maintained simulacrum of humanity that he's as close to real as possible. He knows he can't really be human, nor would he want to be if it meant giving up being Superman, but to a certain extent he can be and is a human being.

Still, in the end for me the fact that Kal experiences the world so incredibly differently from us means that he's never really going to be human, only to approximate it as best he can.

[QUOTE=Adekis;3127499]Still, in the end for me the fact that Kal experiences the world so incredibly differently from us means that he's never really going to be human, only to approximate it as best he can.[/QUOTE]

Superman's powers and them shaping the way he perceives and interacts with world making him more alien makes more sense to me. It's not any Kryptonian culture that makes him less human, but that he experiences the world in a way that people on Earth don't, and people on Krypton didn't.

The things that make him less human and more alien isn't that his personality and mindset may differ from the majority of humans, but that his personality and mindset developed through experiencing life in a way that humans don't.

The problem I still have with this though, is that because the DCU is full of metahumans and people born with powers that also experience life in a way that people without powers don't and they are still human within the context of the DC Universe, so the dichotomy of human vs alien still seems off to me.

[QUOTE=FishyZombie;3126445]I'm curious what people feel about him saying stuff like "Great Krypton!" Or "Rao give me strength." I kinda like it, as gives an essentric quirkiness I guess. Though I have no idea how he'd pick up that kind of habit.[/QUOTE]

My guess is he knows about this from the old holograms. Superman wants to experience his old life. A life he never had. He also wants to save some of Krypton within him. His way of showing respect to his heritage. So, he studies old Kryptonian holograms. Our equivalent of studying books and watching videos. It is natural that this comes out of his mouth. Just like a fan of Back To The Future can utter "Great Scott!". It was the exclamation of Doc Brown. Hardly anyone speaks like that. But one can pick that up by study or by conscious choice. I think this is natural for Supergirl as she has lived liked that on Krypton. For Superman it is not natural. He learnt this by himself.

I prefer it when Superman says "Great Scott!" . One reason is because it sounds something dorky or quirky. (Great Krypton sounds cool to me. Krypton is cool sounding. At least for me). Another reason is his duality. When he is as Clark Kent he is a square. Someone out of touch with current trends. Someone boring. But as Superman he is totally opposite. He is dynamic and full of action. He is the opposite of what people call boring. I like to imagine that these phrases he uses as Clark Kent comes out from Superman's mouth once in a while.

They are both one and the same person. Yet he acts a bit different as Clark Kent. As someone who wants to be underestimated. He acts a bit different as Superman as this confident and powerful hero. Look at his confidence and swagger. That pose as he puts his hands on his hips.

[IMG]http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_pScx8BN4h3s/SxAg5eUA24I/AAAAAAAAGJc/Dfg9l5sCw6w/s1600/so+3+cover.jpg[/IMG]

[SIZE=3]Look at that pose. He seriously wants others to underestimate him. To find him unfashionable and boring.[/SIZE]

[IMG]http://supermanforever.marianobayona.com/supori.jpg[/IMG]

[SIZE=3]Look at that pose. He is not one to trifle with. Confident, cool and in control.[/SIZE]

But sometimes this duality becomes blurry. Like when he is surprised. Something he would normally say as Clark Kent, he would say as Superman. He is surprised isn't he? I find this very fascinating.

I am not in love with his Kryptonian exclamations but i can appreciate them. They show one side of his multi-dimensional and fascinating character.

[QUOTE=FishyZombie;3126445]I'm curious what people feel about him saying stuff like "Great Krypton!" Or "Rao give me strength." I kinda like it, as gives an essentric quirkiness I guess. Though I have no idea how he'd pick up that kind of habit.[/QUOTE]

I genuinely couldn't give a damn what the story contrivance is that allows Superman to utter the words "Great Krypton!" It's awesome, so he says it when the mood strikes him. Dude could learn about Krypton 10 years into his Superman life, and you better believe I want him throwing out some "Great Krypton!" when the mood is there. The correct answer is it's awesome so he does it.

[QUOTE=Superlad93;3128158]I genuinely couldn't give a damn what the story contrivance is that allows Superman to utter the words "Great Krypton!" It's awesome, so he says it when the mood strikes him. Dude could learn about Krypton 10 years into his Superman life, and you better believe I want him throwing out some "Great Krypton!" when the mood is there. The correct answer is it's awesome so he does it.[/QUOTE]

I'm in total agreement. Superman is cool before he's anything else!

[QUOTE=Soubhagya;3128098]When he is as Clark Kent he is a square. Someone out of touch with current trends. Someone boring. But as Superman he is totally opposite. He is dynamic and full of action. He is the opposite of what people call boring. I like to imagine that these phrases he uses as Clark Kent comes out from Superman's mouth once in a while.

They are both one and the same person. Yet he acts a bit different as Clark Kent. As someone who wants to be underestimated. He acts a bit different as Superman as this confident and powerful hero. Look at his confidence and swagger. That pose as he puts his hands on his hips.[/QUOTE]

I don't know if I agree with all that. As Clark he clearly wants to be underestimated, but I've never liked him to be dorky in a boring or out of touch way. Besides, I've always liked Clark as a skinny kid that nobody expects to write stories with a punch like Mike Tyson. I don't think Clark's "mild manner" should come from Superman [i]trying[/i] to be mild, but because he's always pretending to be something he's not, so he's extremely guarded at all times.

[IMG]https://i.imgur.com/d5ft2pt.jpg[/IMG]

He doesn't seem stiff or whatever like Frank draws him in this picture, he just looks like the lead actor turned into a nervous stage crew kid.

[QUOTE=Adekis;3127499]I think [i]Miracle Monday[/i] has some pretty good claims about this.[/QUOTE]

Its typically good business to assume that Maggin is right about most things Superman. :)

[QUOTE]Superman cares deeply for Clark. Hannibal's person suit is designed to help him continue his existence, without it he couldn't maintain his luxurious lifestyle. That's very much not what interests the alien Superman about Clark Kent, who's more like an in-depth thought experiment, like a hobby he's incredibly invested in. Perhaps the way that we're invested in Superman comics, haha!.[/QUOTE]

I think Clark goes a little deeper than this. Clark isn't just an elaborate experiment in sociology. Clark is a big part of who he is. I think it does a disservice to look at either "side" of Superman as being more "true" than the other. Superman is all the fantastic elements of his life, all the wondrous things he had to keep hidden about himself. Clark is the part of him that got to live publicly. That shy, awkward, unfashionable guy who can't talk to women and always has a mustard stain on his tie? That's legit. He might play those aspects of himself up beyond what they really are, but those traits are still a "real" part of him. But the ultra-confident scientist and first responder who shoulders the weight of every life on the planet and beyond is just as legit, and like Clark, those traits get played up beyond their natural limits to suit the role he wears. There's a natural duality to Kal that no human could maintain without losing their sanity; neither Clark nor Superman are the whole truth, and both have some deep, fundamental lies and omissions baked into them, but you can't have one without the other.
[QUOTE]
Still, in the end for me the fact that Kal experiences the world so incredibly differently from us means that he's never really going to be human, only to approximate it as best he can.[/QUOTE]

This I agree with. Clark has no idea what being human really feels like, but it's something he tries to understand through Clark's interactions and limitations.

[QUOTE=Dolores - The Worst Poster Ever;3127743]
The problem I still have with this though, is that because the DCU is full of metahumans and people born with powers that also experience life in a way that people without powers don't and they are still human within the context of the DC Universe, so the dichotomy of human vs alien still seems off to me.[/QUOTE]

Well, there are damn few who see as much as Clark does. And he didn't know any of them until well into adulthood, so the existence of those metas doesn't change the developmental impact Clark's perceptions would've had on him growing up.

But it goes deeper than just sight and sound and senses. Clark's brain is wired differently. You see any of those articles where a Google AI tries to write a joke or design a magazine cover? The AI is given the same parameters for their goal that we have, but the results are.....off. Because the program lacks certain undefinable traits that we possess, and certainly has traits that we don't. Clark's sort of like that. He shares our goals, he shares our emotional and moral values....but his brain doesn't work like our's do and that causes some serious disconnects.

[QUOTE=Kuwagaton;3124788]Yeah, that's part of my example above. Like how being husband to Lois doesn't divide his role as father to Jon.

But for example, a segment of readers grew up with his name listed as "Clark Superman Kent." I'm interested in who it is that readers met and who they know. Does he go into a restaurant asking fir goofy foods because his taste is different, or does he have craving for good old foods like rhubarb pie?

Jerry Siegel himself, in the back of the issue I reference, decides Superman can't be married because that's for normal people. The character does transcend his imagination, but that one opinion can't have been uncommon



Agreed. I don't think responsibility is a concept that fully covers how he uses his time and power.[/QUOTE]

It cannot be overstated though that Jerry Siegel ---progressive as he was for his time---(and I do believe he gets a LOT of credit for everything he brought to Lois and just the way he envisioned her as such a strong woman) also existed in a time where women had to "choose" between marriage and career. There was this idea that if you were strong like Lois that you had to give that up when you got married. And there was this idea that women and marriage were this pedestrian things. It's a very dated and sexist concept.

Siegel genuinely believed (and was quoted as saying so) that Superman and Lois couldn't be married bc "then Lois would have to give up her job as a reporter." In 2017, I would hope that we know that this is ridiculous and sexist but back then....that was the mindset. It wasn't until second wave feminism in the 70's (around the time that the Earth 2 marriage took place) that this idea was really challenged culturally. And again...I'm not blaming Siegel. He just was a product of his time and it's vital that all views about marriage between them made in that time period are examined under that lens. We need to understand that Lois has been on a journey just like real American women and often her progress (or lack thereof) reflects ours throughout her history. Like I said I give Siegel huge credit for creating her the way he did. But he definitely didn't live in an era of women being allowed to both get married/have kids AND have the career. They were seen as distinctly different roles.

Laura Siegel Larson, Jerry and Joanne's only daughter, absolutely believes that Lois and Clark should be married. She's been outspoken about it. I'm not sure what she thinks of Jon but I hope someone asks her soon!

Yeah, I certainly think that his logic is pretty fair in the context of a society where men were embarrassed to do anything around the house and the goal most women were apparently assumed to have, to be married, was an alternative to going about the rest of their life as an individual. Swan had a similar response because it was just a different way of understanding back then.

[QUOTE=Dolores - The Worst Poster Ever;3127743]Superman's powers and them shaping the way he perceives and interacts with world making him more alien makes more sense to me. [/QUOTE]

This is basically what I meant, though you're right that in the DCU at large, the idea gets convoluted.

I also meant to dig into the idea that where Superman stands gives us his POV, so I wondered where the perception of him lead. Like the way I see him, he tends to spend more memorable stretches of time around WGBS or making weird small talk with Whit, even though he technically spends more time out in the big, crazy field. He can adjust to craziness but defaults to low key.

100% Alien
100% Human
All Cop

whoops, wrong movie poster,

All Hero.



As alien as feasible by nature

As human as possible by nuture.

The two aspects as perfectly blended as can be.

He was raised, by Earth humans, as a human being who happens to have superpowers. Not by Jor-El and Lara.

Krypton is the explanation for those powers. Krypton is his heritage, which he greatly respects and honors. But he doesn't want to live in the Fortress all the time. (That would be more appropriate for Kara, really.)

He fell in love with Lois, an Earth human. His best friends -- Wonder Woman and J'onn J'onzz aside -- are Earth humans. (Leaving the Legion aside.)

He's NOT a "stranger in a strange land." KRYPTON is the "strange land" that he "visits" in the Fortress.

He's one of us, aside from his particular heritage. More than that, he's what we would be if we were genuinely good, moral, altruistic people -- with "powers far beyond those of mortal men."

And that's how he should be written.

(And yes, "Clark Kent" at the Daily Planet is much more subdued a person than the Clark known by Ma and Pa Kent, Lois, Jon, the Justice League, et al. And "Superman" is a job title, little different than "Hawkman" or "Wonder Woman. And "Kal-El" is like a Hebrew name, used only on special occasions.)