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[QUOTE=Lapsus;4644475]1. Yes but from the point of view of racist all black people are hated, all muslims are hated, all mexicans are hated. You dont see a white racist saying "I cant stand Bantu people but i like Nilotic people""Sunnies sucks men, Shia are the best""As long as those mexicans dont come from sinaloa, im ok"
2. Is not comparable, Humanity in 616, for stupid reasons, feel that extinction is coming to them because of Mutants. Homophobes hate gay people for various dumb reasons, concept of family, religion, puritanism ect... but extinction??
3. In the case of the Marvel universe, i agree, the origin is fear to powers, but that should include other Superheroes and the aliens.
In the case of the real world, several reasons, ethnic hostilities, imperialism, nationalism, religion, sense of superiority ect...
4. Mass murders cannot be comparable with, for example, the Genosha incident, not even the narcotrafic war in mexico, not even the atomic bomb. Super Powers are way, way more scary that mass shooting or civil wars in the other side in the world. People think that "This will never happen to me"
For me, the prejuice in the Marvel universe doesnt make sense as presented.[/QUOTE]
To me the prejudice in the real world as it is doesn't make sense so i guess on some measure we are on the same page.
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[QUOTE=jwatson;4644477]To me the prejudice in the real world as it is doesn't make sense so i guess on some measure we are on the same page.[/QUOTE]
Of course.
I understand what you are trying to say, the difference in our arguments is simple.
You argue that the racism is not against inmigrants, is against certain ethnic groups, races and nationalities, Which is totally true.
For you, the Superheroes are the inmigrants and the Mutants (X-Gene mutant) the hated ethnic group.
I argue that racist people dont make distinction within the groups they hate (individuality is another matter), they hate the group as a whole, in the case of a white racist = Black People, muslism, mexicans ect..
For me superheroes or "not baseline human" are an indivisible group, because the source of the prejuice is the fear of superpowers or "not looking human", if that is the case, people will not fear less Hulk than Colossus.
The difference is where, you and i, put the dividing line.
Solutions,
- mostly headcanon.
My personal headcanon is that Mutants are more numerous than "mutates" so they are a large "concern", still doesnt justify the lack of fear to the mutates or the exaggerated hate towards the mutants but is the only thing that i have.
The true solution, coherence in writing, but we are talking about a franchise with more than 50 years of publishing. Bad Writing is inevitable.
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[QUOTE=Lapsus;4644475]1. Yes but from the point of view of a racist all black people are hated, all muslims are hated, all mexicans are hated. You dont see a white racist saying "I cant stand Bantu people but i like Nilotic people""Sunnies sucks men, Shia are the best""As long as those mexicans dont come from sinaloa, im ok"
[/QUOTE]
You actually see real life examples of this for sports (mostly soccer), and it's happened quite a few times recently. Namely people in the crowd racially abusing players on the other team, while they themselves cheer people of the same race on their team. It's confounding logic but often comes down to the 'Well he's one of the good ones.'
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[QUOTE=Kusanagi;4644658]You actually see real life examples of this for sports (mostly soccer), and it's happened quite a few times recently. Namely people in the crowd racially abusing players on the other team, while they themselves cheer people of the same race on their team. It's confounding logic but often comes down to the 'Well he's one of the good ones.'[/QUOTE]
That is individuality, for example, you are a fan of beyonce so you cant be racist, this logic is obviously flawed. In the context of Superheroes this could explain how people see the popular ones, but a huge chunk of the X-Men should be popular too, they have been figthing alongside the avengers and the fantastic four, then there is the mutate criminals and the less popular mutants. They would be the ones who suffer the hate (in the case of the villains, justify). This would portray humanity as hypocrite, which i think is a very accurate depiction.
The problem is that humanity seems to hate exclusively the mutants, villanous or heroic but dont give a fuck about mutates or other things villanous or heroic (in the case of villains, people only care about them when their lives are on the line, but nobody makes a case for "mutate" people for every cop Electro have fried)
Sports also should be taken in their context, sometimes they really want to piss off a certain player or provoke a reaction, of course, this doesnt make the insults more excusable or less racist.
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[QUOTE=Lapsus;4644427]Sometimes i feel that this franchise has corner themselves.[/QUOTE]
The "written into a corner" perception of the franchise has been one of my main sources of reader despair where "X-Men" is concerned.
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[QUOTE=Star_Jammer;4644472]OK, so...question: is it cool for people to be afraid of mutants until these inhibitor devices 1) are developed and 2) are mainstream enough to be a guaranteed countermeasure?[/QUOTE]
Would you live in a city with Demon, Robot, Aliens, Superpowered Crime and Mutants attacks? Go ahead keep telling me how humans should be afraid of dangerous powers. And millions of people in Marvel New York show over and over that powers are a norm and people aren't scared of them in Marvel. Keep trying to use real-world logic to explain when people do in Marvel when they see superpowers except they are proven to do the opposite. It is almost as if you forgot humans in Marvel deal with tons of other superpowered beings without being scared of them. Hating on mutants isn't about being scared of their powers because if marvel humans are afraid powers because if they are scared they are doing a real bad job of being scared of the Avengers and FF and their superpowers and even worse all the villains who fight them.
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[QUOTE=Killerbee911;4644752]Would you live in a city with Demon, Robot, Aliens, Superpowered Crime and Mutants attacks?.[/QUOTE]
No, I woulda peaced out of NYC a long time ago.
Again: I'm [B][U]not talking[/U][/B] about the MU. We, as an audience to a fictional world, forgive a [B]lot[/B] of things, just because it's entertainment.
I believe people would, realistically, be afraid of all super-powered people. Singling out mutants is just for the benefit of the metaphor. That's why over-analyzing it starts to break things.
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[QUOTE=Star_Jammer;4644815]No, I woulda peaced out of NYC a long time ago.
Again: I'm [B][U]not talking[/U][/B] about the MU. We, as an audience to a fictional world, forgive a [B]lot[/B] of things, just because it's entertainment.
I believe people would, realistically, be afraid of all super-powered people. Singling out mutants is just for the benefit of the metaphor. That's why over-analyzing it starts to break things.[/QUOTE]
I was simple talking about people who hate something growing in real life. And I was explaining people in Marvel could similar grow in their universe.
You kept trying to make this 1 to 1 thing to eliminate the real life comparison of growth but then turn around and try to use real life fear of scary stuff to justify why fictional people would be scared. You can't have it both ways people in Marvel are proven not to be a scared of superpowers in the same manner as real life people. If people in Marvel was scared of dangerous powers like you are implying then all superheroes would be scary to them and this is not the case.
I am not switching the argument. I am talking about parallels of growth two different worlds I never needed the things to be exact. If you had just said "you can can't compare real life and comics" and stop you would have been fine. That is fair stance. But that is not what you are doing you turn right around after and say because "real life humans are scared of dangerous things" that humans in the mutant world rightful scared of mutants for being dangerous. The thing Marvel is filled with superpowered beings and humans AREN'T SCARED OF THEM. Making it an issue of irrational fear and bias. Which makes real life irrational fear and bias and people growing away from those biases a valid convo to have here. Superpowers and danger are norms in their world. I am just talking about how people respond to norms and how they grow and adapt to them.
If you want to talk Meta and outside world creator stuff fine but the second you try to implement an opinion you are trying to compare real life to comics something you said doesn't make sense.
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[QUOTE=Lapsus;4644475]1. Yes but from the point of view of a racist all black people are hated, all muslims are hated, all mexicans are hated. You dont see a white racist saying "I cant stand Bantu people but i like Nilotic people""Sunnies sucks men, Shia are the best""As long as those mexicans dont come from sinaloa, im ok"
2. Is not comparable, Humanity in 616, for stupid reasons, feel that extinction is coming to them because of Mutants. Homophobes hate gay people for various dumb reasons, concept of family, religion, puritanism ect... but extinction??
3. In the case of the Marvel universe, i agree, the origin is fear to powers, but that should include other Superheroes and the aliens.
In the case of the real world, several reasons, ethnic hostilities, imperialism, nationalism, religion, sense of superiority ect...
4. Mass murders cannot be comparable with, for example, the Genosha incident, not even the narcotrafic war in mexico, not even the atomic bomb. Super Powers are way, way more scary than mass shooting or civil wars on the other side of the world. People think that "This will never happen to me" with powers or alien invasions, there is no feel of security.
For me, the prejuice in the Marvel universe doesnt make sense as presented.[/QUOTE]
Hell there have been stories about mutants being hated because of religious reasons yet how often are Hercules and Thor persecuted for actually calling themselves gods?
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[QUOTE=Killerbee911;4644861]I was simple talking about people who hate something growing in real life. And I was explaining people in Marvel could similar grow in their universe.[/QUOTE]
What growth are you talking about?
My argument is simple: there is never a good reason to "fear black people". There are often good times to "fear mutants".
Go write the storie of power inhibiting collars and mutant detecting devices (make sure they can accurately predict which powers a mutant will develop, too), if you want.
[QUOTE=Killerbee911;4644861]The thing Marvel is filled with superpowered beings and humans AREN'T SCARED OF THEM. [/QUOTE]
Not all of them. Hulk and Spider-Men have been met with resistance, and likely a few others. And then there was that whole Civil War thing you might have read.
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[QUOTE=Star_Jammer;4644868]
My argument is simple: there is never a good reason to "fear black people". There are often good times to "fear mutants".
[/QUOTE]
Your argument is wrong according to racists/bigots what about Black Gang members, Muslims Terrorists and Mexican rapists those are "good" reasons to fear. Treating every Muslim like they are 9/11 terrorist, Is just as stupid as treating every Mutant like the Magneto even your argument Surge or Rogue. You don't blame the group for individuals. If it is one lesson that needs to be said it is that.
[QUOTE=Star_Jammer;4644868]
Go write the storie of power inhibiting collars and mutant detecting devices (make sure they can accurately predict which powers a mutant will develop, too), if you want.
[/QUOTE]
Now you are upset that I have presented logic already measures used methods in the fiction. Maybe you need to go read the worst X-man ever where Beast told mutant what his power is without him using it.
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[QUOTE=Killerbee911;4644904]Your argument is wrong according to racists/bigots what about Black Gang members, Muslims Terrorists and Mexican rapists those are "good" reasons to fear. Treating every Muslim like they are 9/11 terrorist, Is just as stupid as treating every Mutant like the Magneto even your argument Surge or Rogue. You don't blame the group for individuals. If it is one lesson that needs to be said it is that.[/quote]
I haven't even really mentioned mutant terrorism, which can just exacerbate the point. I've talked about [I]uncontrollable[/I] situations in which mutants have caused death and destruction.
I'm definitely going to be afraid of a woman who has to rush herself into space so she doesn't destroy the Earth, just because her ex-lover dying upset her. [I]Why[/I] am I going to be afraid of her? Because I don't know what else might set her off.
Storm is a hero. She's not a terrorist. But she is, at times, [B]uncontrollably dangerous[/B].
[QUOTE=Killerbee911;4644904]Now you are upset that I have presented logic already measures used methods in the fiction. Maybe you need to go read the worst X-man ever where Beast told mutant what his power is without him using it.[/QUOTE]
I'm not upset about anything. Write the story that has power-dampeners accepted as a counter-measure. It hasn't been written thus far, as any "cure" or suppression device is met with resistance by the heroes. Why? Because they're treated as antagonizing and "racist" in the narrative.
A question, since you've conceded that mutant suppression/detection devices can and should be used to prevent dangerous situations. If there's no reason to fear destructive mutant powers, why should these devices even be invented?
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[QUOTE=Star_Jammer;4644868]
Not all of them. Hulk and Spider-Men have been met with resistance, and likely a few others. And then there was that whole Civil War thing you might have read.[/QUOTE]
In the case of Spider-Man, it's less to do with his powers and more to do with Jameson's smear campaign against him. And the Hulk's rage issues are why people are often afraid of him.
For the record, I agree with your points regarding people being afraid of mutants.
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Selling pitch from Stan Lee: "Mutants sworn to protect a world that hates and fears them!". I don't think it was at first an allegory of racism but it's a way to show that these mutants have some fortitude. They were a model.
Now it has become: "A world hates and fears the mutants!" There's no more any message.
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[QUOTE=Star_Jammer;4644915]
A question, since you've conceded that mutant suppression/detection devices can and should be used to prevent dangerous situations. If there's no reason to fear destructive mutant powers, why should these devices even be invented?[/QUOTE]
Jeffery Dahmer, Ted Bundy, Charles Manson, Dylan Roof, Eric Harris, Adolf Hitler,etc.. All white people are dangerous because those guys are dangerous and we know that is not true. If every mutant had the same exact power as Storm you would have a point. There is a difference between saying this specific mutant has a dangerous component. And all mutants are dangerous because in that group who can find dangerous ones that have a dangerous competent. You can say that about every group of people on earth the perceived level of danger doesn't matter because all of the mutants are not the same.
What is Trinary, Cypher, Morph, Kitty, Forge, Celia Reyes, Leech, Sage, Mystique, Domino, Ink, Multiple Man,Eye boy, Nature Girl, Omerta, Blindfold,Gold Balls,etc ,etc going to innately with their powers do to humans with their powers. How in world does going "Storm is dangerous therefore all those people I listed are dangerous" make sense. You don't treat the group badly because of individual cases ,Mutants aren't Zombies that operate the same way and have the same inherent danger.
Are all Mutants dangerous? No. Are most mutants dangerous? No. Are some mutants dangerous? Yes. Does not knowing which one is dangerous give you the right to treat [B]all of them[/B] as dangerous? No. I don't know how many times I have to say the individual person being one way doesn't give you right treat all of the group that way. It is very dangerous thinking when people believe they can ignore that everyone is an unique individual to blanket treat everyone in a group badly. I don't care if a mutant had the power to blow up earth we have understanding that larger percentage mutants aren't innately dangerous or can control their powers.Thus we the intelligence to go THAT mutant is dangerous when they do something dangerous not well since I can't figure who is dangerous let me blame all of them.
I have even point out that mutants Cyclops, Rogue or Surge who can't control their powers are given devices to help control their powers. The fiction when it wants admits "hey we should create something to help people control their powers or inhibit their powers if it functions in a dangerous away." It is fine for mutants. So if you see a mutant without a control device the universe logic is that they can control their power without being a danger to people. Because If mutant can control their powers they would be give a device like Cyclops or Surge.
Anyways I am moving on from this convo because I am NEVER going to agree to treat group of people who aren't responsible for an issue like they are the problem.When the problem is a smaller group of individuals within a larger group.
