[QUOTE=Yoda;4922348]He didn’t do anything to harm Jon. It’s obviously not the same set up at Mr. Oz left. We know that, it’s implied. So how did he betray their trust? How did his being Mr. Oz factor into it at all.[/QUOTE]
So that’s really the hill you’re willing to die on huh? Well, I’m not sure if you’ve thought this out as well as you think. But okay I’ll agree to disagree.
[QUOTE=Yoda;4922348]He didn’t do anything to harm Jon. It’s obviously not the same set up at Mr. Oz left. We know that, it’s implied. So how did he betray their trust? How did his being Mr. Oz factor into it at all.[/QUOTE]
Dude, i don't think clois will leave jon with an unstable person.no sane parent would. He didn't, doesn't mean there wasn't a possibility.He is very much responsible for jon being tortured and so are clois. They don't seem to go through any consequences for that.Which is atleast logical.
So let's be real for a second. If you're in Clark and Lois' shoes and the only thing you know about Jor-El are the very few experiences you had with him as a total lunatic, would you trust him alone in space with your eleven year old son, where they're both completely out of your reach?
This isn't about whether or not Jor-El's at fault for what happened to Jon. This is about Clark and Lois' being so uncharacteristically lax about the well-being of their child. At the end of the day, it's not Jor-El's fault. It's theirs. Because they never should have left him alone in the first place. And, again, it was all for absolutely nothing. Aside from the mental scarring he should have from the years of torture, Jon got nothing out of this experience that he couldn't have gotten with Clark. He didn't gain a damn thing. Instead he lost seven years of his life.
[QUOTE=Blue22;4922364]So let's be real for a second. If you're in Clark and Lois' shoes and the only thing you know about Jor-El are the very few experiences you had with him as a total lunatic, would you trust him alone in space with your eleven year old son, where they're both completely out of your reach?
This isn't about whether or not Jor-El's at fault for what happened to Jon. This is about Clark and Lois' being so uncharacteristically lax about their well-being of their child. At the end of the day, it's not Jor-El's fault. It's theirs. Because they never should have left him alone in the first place.[/QUOTE]
Except there is obviously some retconning or changes to Jor El. Bendis doesn’t want to use terrorist Jor El and didn’t. I mean, Jor El was kidnapped at the end of Oz Effect and that is ignored. So his status was changed between the stories.
It’s sloppy, but it is there. So you are actively ignoring the story as written.
While, i can understand liking clois. I am not exactly unbiased in my view. Its specifically coming from the perspective of the character that went through torture. But,this was pure nonsensical keeping my biases aside. People advocating for this kinda thing is ultimately sinking their own ship.This is basically comes of as advocating neglectful at best and atworst abusive parenting by bendis.
[QUOTE=Yoda;4922370]Except there is obviously some retconning or changes to Jor El. Bendis doesn’t want to use terrorist Jor El and didn’t. I mean, Jor El was kidnapped at the end of Oz Effect and that is ignored. So his status was changed between the stories.
It’s sloppy, but it is there. So you are actively ignoring the story as written.[/QUOTE]
There is no evidence of such change on paper. Furthermore, we have basically wandered of topic. It's about whether clark walking away lois and running of to find help would have been better writing? Jor el has nothing to do with that.
[QUOTE=Yoda;4922370]Except there is obviously some retconning or changes to Jor El. Bendis doesn’t want to use terrorist Jor El and didn’t. I mean, Jor El was kidnapped at the end of Oz Effect and that is ignored. So his status was changed between the stories.
It’s sloppy, but it is there. So you are actively ignoring the story as written.[/QUOTE]
That's a lot of assumptions you're willing to make on behalf of such sloppy and unfocused writing. The entire setup was bad, even for Bendis. Unless I'm missing something (and if I am, please find me the scans. I very well could be) that would suggest the Jor-El that showed up in Bendis' run (who's every bit as crazy as he was before) was a completely different Jor-El from the one that Clark had encountered before this. Because I doubt that whole entire Mr. Oz incident suddenly stopped being a thing, given how it affected more than just the Superman books.
[QUOTE=OpaqueGiraffe17;4922283] Bendis made the whole family idiots for the sake of his story.
[/QUOTE]
He does that...a lot. He did it in X-Men when everyone would just shrug off Jean abusing her powers. And he did it in ALL of Civil War II. When he can't think of a good reason for something to happen, he makes everyone stupid.
He sure as hell should have been pretty pissed. He wouldn't just take his ball and go home, that's not his way, but he should have been way more upset than he was. Its very much not ignoring the story to know that despite Bendis not writing Jor-El as evil, and that Oz Effect ended very much with him not evil, that Clark didn't trust him yet. Its acknowledging the story because we're flat out shown Clark doesn't trust him as soon as Jor-El arrives in their aparatment. Its Lois that talks Clark into the idea with the caveat she goes with him. So that he's just "oh, right, okay" with the horrid explanation for why she bailed first chance she got was just, yikes. This is a key moment in the run, as far as I'm concerned. This is where the run plummeted off a cliff and the contrivances just took over, and hasn't stopped.
Lois simply shouldn't have been put in this position in the first place. Its vastly understated how bad this moment on hurt her character. It wasn't right to do to her. But hey, who cares who this run hurts, its all hands on deck for the creation of the "one true Superman"!
[QUOTE=Yoda;4922370]Except there is obviously some retconning or changes to Jor El. Bendis doesn’t want to use terrorist Jor El and didn’t. I mean, Jor El was kidnapped at the end of Oz Effect and that is ignored. So his status was changed between the stories.
It’s sloppy, but it is there. So you are actively ignoring the story as written.[/QUOTE]
Characters suddenly acting out of character does not mean there’s been a retcon. This is just your headcanon. There is no evidence of this in the comic itself.
They both just handled the whole situation so disgustingly well like everything that happened was no big deal. From the decision to leave Jon, to the way he is when he returns. I don't care how in love you are, you don't go banging your wife after she abandoned your kid in space. Even if Clark is just as negligent for allowing them both to go. You ask her if she's lost her fucking mind and then fly out into space to get your boy back!
[QUOTE=Sacred Knight;4922391]He sure as hell should have been pretty pissed. He wouldn't just take his ball and go home, that's not his way, but he should have been way more upset than he was. Its very much not ignoring the story to know that despite Bendis not writing Jor-El as evil, and that Oz Effect ended very much with him not evil, that Clark didn't trust him yet. Its acknowledging the story because we're flat out shown Clark doesn't trust him. Its Lois that talks Clark into the idea with the caveat she goes with him. So that he's just "oh, right, okay" with the horrid explanation for why she bailed first chance she got was just, yikes. But this is the moment where the contrivances hit peak. Its all downhill from this moment.[/QUOTE]
Him being pissed could have atleast saved this scene. There was no sense of urgency and protectivness in clark who had trouble letting go. He was more dotting than lois, especially when he senses jon is hurt. Worse, Clark basically brushes of hal for the same. Clark could have atleast been redeemed at this point. But, alas even that didn't happen.
[QUOTE=OpaqueGiraffe17;4922395]Characters suddenly acting out of character does not mean there’s been a retcon. This is just your headcanon. There is no evidence of this in the comic itself.[/QUOTE]
The fact that he is there at all is evidence of it! He was kidnapped by Manhattan at the end of Oz Effect. Then he’s free and Clark was aware he’s free.
[QUOTE=Yoda;4922422]The fact that he is there at all is evidence of it! He was kidnapped by Manhattan at the end of Oz Effect. Then he’s free and Clark was aware he’s free.[/QUOTE]
Again you’re basically saying “hey maybe x explains y.” But it’s never so much as implied to be the case in the comic itself. And there’s no transition at all. So he’s still a stranger, still just as much a dangerous, untrustworthy mass murdering stranger as he was before, if not more so.
[QUOTE=Sacred Knight;4922391]He sure as hell should have been pretty pissed. He wouldn't just take his ball and go home, that's not his way, but he should have been way more upset than he was. Its very much not ignoring the story to know that despite Bendis not writing Jor-El as evil, and that Oz Effect ended very much with him not evil, that Clark didn't trust him yet. Its acknowledging the story because we're flat out shown Clark doesn't trust him as soon as Jor-El arrives in their aparatment. Its Lois that talks Clark into the idea with the caveat she goes with him. So that he's just "oh, right, okay" with the horrid explanation for why she bailed first chance she got was just, yikes. This is a key moment in the run, as far as I'm concerned. This is where the run plummeted off a cliff and the contrivances just took over, and hasn't stopped.
Lois simply shouldn't have been put in this position in the first place. Its vastly understated how bad this moment on hurt her character. It wasn't right to do to her. But hey, who cares who this run hurts, its all hands on deck for the creation of the "one true Superman"![/QUOTE]
Yeah, I have a really hard time defending how Lois acted.
"I needed a break...I mean, our family isn't normal! Even though things being [I]too[/I] not normal gives me an excuse to bail on my son and not reach out to my husband with what's going on or the fact that my child is alone with their mentally unstable grandfather!"
"Also watch me expose my husband's identity to my father in the government without even consulting him about it!"
[QUOTE=OpaqueGiraffe17;4922432]Again you’re basically saying “hey maybe x explains y.” But it’s never so much as implied to be the case in the comic itself. And there’s no transition at all. So he’s still a stranger, still just as much a dangerous, untrustworthy mass murdering stranger as he was before, if not more so.[/QUOTE]
Except it is implied in the comic. Jor El's appearance and Clark's reaction to it. There's no shown transition, sure. But there is an obvious transition in the character. He's not dangerous, untrustworthy or treated like a mass murderer by anyone. In fact, he's shown to be a respected person among the galaxy. He interacts with the Green Lantern Corps. I mean, that is all on the page. This:
[QUOTE]still just as much a dangerous, untrustworthy mass murdering stranger as he was before, if not more so.[/QUOTE]
Is just not the case at all and is directly refuted by what is actually shown. It's not until [I]after[/I] Jon disappears and he goes on the implied tear to get him back that his treatment in the galaxy at large changes.
[QUOTE=Lvenger;4922329]Bendis never explained why the Kents were suddenly OK with Jor-El showing up out of nowhere and demanding Jon accompany him into space. The last time they saw him, Jor-El was responsible for organising mass terrorist attacks, chemical weapons being deployed in an African country, worldwide rioting and oil spills. Plus he murdered Metallo and Zor-El along with imprisoning Mr Mxyzptlk and Tim Drake. Yes he was under mind control but he was still suffering mentally from his trauma. Lois suffered more than Clark in this instance from Bendis' writing. She not only swayed Clark into allowing Jon to go with his grandfather but had Lois leave Jon with Jor-El without any doubts or fears. Everyone was written wrong in this scene and it ruined the family dynamics that were developed by Jurgens and Tomasi over their runs.[/QUOTE]
Oh, I know. It was terrible. I can't recall if the issued where Lois left him there was my last regular issue or the one where Jon was revealed as grown (which is editorial, but still not an idea I like). Read a few more less consistently after that, but then abandoned Super titles. So peeved about characterization, especially of Lois, that I'm not reading anything else Bendis does with pre-existing characters. Was interested in a new YJ, until I saw it was him. Haven't read a single issue.