In a bleak real world like this, we need the classic Superman again

The [B]classic Superman [/B]on comic books, movies, TV series.

Tyler is the right direction.

We're living in a terrible world right now. Pandemy. World War III. Poverty. Social disorders. Political confusion. Violent videogames. Kids killing each other. No education or culture. No empathy.
The "real" world is 100% a mess.
We don't need Batman-type characters anymore. Leave Batman alone, don't try to steal and copy his formula over and over and over. It's getting ridiculous. We already live in a nihilistic world. We just need a real superhero, positive and filled with values. We need hope.

So please, Warner Bros, don't nolanize Superman anymore. We don't need heat vision-glowing rage eyes. We don't need an updated costume. We don't need a tragic past. We don't need a tormented and brooding attitude. We don't need Kryptonian enemies destroying Metropolis.

We need Superman. We wanna dream a better world.

Thank you, Warner, if you're reading.

I completely agree about Iconic Superman. The most frustrating thing about being a Superman fan these days (in all media) is that we need the Real Steel Deal now more than ever. He was created in a time of darkness and provided inspiration, catharsis, and entertainment. WBD/DC still doesn't understand that. Their execs still see a good man who does the right thing because it's the right thing and who puts everyone before himself as "old-fashioned" and "corny" and "outdated." I maintain that a film adaptation of Iconic Superman would be a massive global hit if it was made by creators who know, understand, and love the character. Bill Bird is just one.

I'd also love to see Batman regain his humanity. Comic book readers of many years (decades in my case) know that Batman's humanity is his greatest strength, not his ability to plan or his gadgets. He wouldn't do what he does if he didn't have limitless compassion and courage. It's also been shown that Bruce enjoys being Batman, not because he gets to break bones or frighten criminals like Miller's paramilitary thug, but because he has hope. He can smile and be shown to enjoy his crusade without instantly becoming a parody like the 60s show.

I think you'll find that most everyone agrees, but most everyone will disagree on what exactly "classic" means.

[QUOTE=Mutant 77;6145630]The [B]classic Superman [/B]on comic books, movies, TV series.

Tyler is the right direction.

We're living in a terrible world right now. Pandemy. World War III. Poverty. Social disorders. Political confusion. Violent videogames. Kids killing each other. No education or culture. No empathy.
The "real" world is 100% a mess.[/QUOTE]

I agree - though the violent video games aren't something I see as an issue in and of themselves (I certainly played them, and I'm as much a fan of classic Superman as almost anyone). If we did a better job looking out for each other as a society, there would be a lot more empathy in the world.

[QUOTE]We don't need Batman-type characters anymore. Leave Batman alone, don't try to steal and copy his formula over and over and over. It's getting ridiculous. We already live in a nihilistic world. We just need a real superhero, positive and filled with values. We need hope.

So please, Warner Bros, don't nolanize Superman anymore. We don't need heat vision-glowing rage eyes. We don't need an updated costume. We don't need a tragic past. We don't need a tormented and brooding attitude. We don't need Kryptonian enemies destroying Metropolis.

We need Superman. We wanna dream a better world.

Thank you, Warner, if you're reading.[/QUOTE]

Batman and his like can be around - but I completely agree that they need to stop trying to force an S-shaped peg into a Bat-shaped hole. If they're smart, they'll look at what people love about Superman and Lois and work out from there.

[QUOTE=Kirk Brent;6145638]I completely agree about Iconic Superman. The most frustrating thing about being a Superman fan these days (in all media) is that we need the Real Steel Deal now more than ever. He was created in a time of darkness and provided inspiration, catharsis, and entertainment. WBD/DC still doesn't understand that. Their execs still see a good man who does the right thing because it's the right thing and who puts everyone before himself as "old-fashioned" and "corny" and "outdated." I maintain that a film adaptation of Iconic Superman would be a massive global hit if it was made by creators who know, understand, and love the character. Bill Bird is just one.[/QUOTE]

Wow, reading "the Real Steel Deal" brought a much bigger blast of nostalgia than even I realized it would! But yeah - if there was ever a time to push forward with a strong "can-do" Superman, it's now.

[QUOTE]I'd also love to see Batman regain his humanity. Comic book readers of many years (decades in my case) know that Batman's humanity is his greatest strength, not his ability to plan or his gadgets. He wouldn't do what he does if he didn't have limitless compassion and courage. It's also been shown that Bruce enjoys being Batman, not because he gets to break bones or frighten criminals like Miller's paramilitary thug, but because he has hope. He can smile and be shown to enjoy his crusade without instantly becoming a parody like the 60s show.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, I'd like to see this, too. It would be interesting if that's the trajectory of the Battinson films, but we'll see.

[QUOTE=Ascended;6145778]I think you'll find that most everyone agrees, but most everyone will disagree on what exactly "classic" means.[/QUOTE]

That's very true. Though I think taking the flashback episode of "Superman & Lois" (episode 11, iirc) and expanding out from there would be a decent start - and, as you and I have said many times (again, iirc) the Golden Age Superman or some slightly updated version of the same could really strike a chord in people today in a way that wouldn't have been possible in the 60's/etc.

Just to play Luthor's advocate (insert joke groan here): while everyone has a specific idea of what their classic Superman is, I do think that (especially for movies) there's a sort of general idea that people can more-or-less go with, even if it's not their own idealized version of "classic". I'd put the Superman we got in Super-Pets as loosely fitting that idea. I'd also think that some Bronze Age stories could possibly work and be considered "classic," as well.

[QUOTE=Ascended;6145778]I think you'll find that most everyone agrees, but most everyone will disagree on what exactly "classic" means.[/QUOTE]

Indeed, though I think most people would agree on that. As much as I love the classic uniform and believe it can be done extremely well (Routh's KC suit), I understand if TPTB want to use a different design and so I don't include it in what's absolutely necessary to an Iconic Superman portrayals.

Here's what I think an Iconic Superman film/story must include:

- the Kents are the source of Clark Kent's morality: selfless, hard-working, and noble people who teach Clark about the value of all life and of all people from the moment he's old enough to understand.

- the Kents encourage Clark to protect himself and their family life when using his abilities but never at the expense of defending the defenseless and helping those in need. Unlike NotMartha Kent's sentiments in BvS, the Kents teach Clark that his powers are meant to be used for everyone's benefit.

- Clark is intelligent and pro-active as a young man after Smallville, knowing what wants to do (help those in need) but not exactly how. He's not an aimless, wandering hobo who destroys semi trucks out of petty spite or who uses his powers without consideration of the damage they can do to the people and world around him. He seeks out a career that will allow him to protect others without using his powers. JMS did a great job of exploring this in Earth One and I'd love to see it on film.

- Clark's advanced senses have gifted him with an awareness of life that few others on Earth have. He hears and sees and even feels things humans aren't even aware or possible and has experienced a myriad of forms of life growing up on a farm. Like Maggin portrayed him in Miracle Monday, he laments the death of even a dog while still a boy. He doesn't have to "learn that killing is wrong" to know that it's wrong. He's seen death in ways we can't imagine, even with the assistance of technology. As a result, he doesn't kill, ever, under no circumstances.

- Superman doesn't use fear and intimidation and violence when dealing with criminals. In fact, he is first and foremost a defender and savior of those in need. The people that complained "Superman didn't punch anyone" in Superman Returns either don't know Superman or failed to recognize the true problems of the film. A Superman movie should have tons of action and adventure, but by no means should Superman be violent. Violence is always a last resort and, especially to Superman, a failure.

- Superman is kind and considerate and does the right thing because it's the right thing to do. He's gentle and confident, not brooding and angst-ridden.

- Superman's mythos is rich and complex, extending from the miracle world of Krypton to the sci-fi wonders of Metropolis and the DCU and everywhere in between. He can do just about anything and therefore shouldn't be limited to fighting robots or slugfests with powerhouse villains or even remaining on Earth all the time. Special effects wizards still haven't been allowed to fully exploit the scale and scope and reach of Superman and his world.

I think most people will agree that the above is much of what makes "Iconic Superman" or "Classic Superman." The character is not and never has been "a problem." The problem has always been WB and DC execs too cynical and jaded to give Superman his due.

I don't understand the point of this thread..The batman was a success...Story demands what the tone should be..If you are going to put boundaries on what type stories can be told with a character.The continual repeatations may lead to people getting bored..
Better world..smaller world..side world..People want to be entertained.. Main point of any character

Every time someone says this, I wonder how they think "classic Superman" is going to fix any of this. These problems aren't new. They've existed long before Superman was created and continued to exist long after. This just comes across like more whining about a Superman you don't like existing instead of just following the one you do like. At this rate Superman fans are on par with Star Wars fans when it comes to hating what they supposedly love.

[QUOTE=Agent Z;6146462]Every time someone says this, I wonder how they think "classic Superman" is going to fix any of this. These problems aren't new. They've existed long before Superman was created and continued to exist long after. This just comes across like more whining about a Superman you don't like existing instead of just following the one you do like. At this rate Superman fans are on par with StarcWars fans when it comes to hating what they supposedly love.[/QUOTE]

No, we hated Superman before Star Wars fans started hating Star Wars.

[QUOTE=Agent Z;6146462]Every time someone says this, I wonder how they think "classic Superman" is going to fix any of this. These problems aren't new. They've existed long before Superman was created and continued to exist long after. This just comes across like more whining about a Superman you don't like existing instead of just following the one you do like. At this rate Superman fans are on par with StarcWars fans when it comes to hating what they supposedly love.[/QUOTE]

I can't speak for the others, but for me: I see it as Superman should have a few lanes that he occupies that set him apart from much of what we see in superhero pop culture. It's not so much about a direct fix because you're right - but especially when most characters we see have some kind of compromise or tragedy to make their altruism more dramatic, I like that characters exist who have tragedy but don't let it define them or have said tragedy as their driving force. The inspiration that can come from that existing is important, I think. It was certainly something I gravitated to as a kid.

I will say that part of this call for the classic always being there is because we don't often get Superman depictions, so when one comes and it isn't, that sets us back a while before the next one (unlike Batman, who only goes a few years between versions, generally, if that). If that wasn't the case, then there might not be as much of a call since different versions would/could hit different groups in a way that they like.

Wasn't Superman created in a bleak world?

[QUOTE=JAK;6146477]I can't speak for the others, but for me: I see it as Superman should have a few lanes that he occupies that set him apart from much of what we see in superhero pop culture. It's not so much about a direct fix because you're right - but especially when most characters we see have some kind of compromise or tragedy to make their altruism more dramatic, I like that characters exist who have tragedy but don't let it define them or have said tragedy as their driving force. The inspiration that can come from that existing is important, I think. It was certainly something I gravitated to as a kid.

I will say that part of this call for the classic always being there is because we don't often get Superman depictions, so when one comes and it isn't, that sets us back a while before the next one (unlike Batman, who only goes a few years between versions, generally, if that). If that wasn't the case, then there might not be as much of a call since different versions would/could hit different groups in a way that they like.[/QUOTE]

The issue is that what these people want of Classic Superman has been almost everywhere since 2016 and these complaints still persist. These fans are getting what they want and it somehow still isn't enough for them.

And I don't know how you can say we don't often get Superman depictions when he's the most exposed DC character behind only Batman.

[QUOTE=9th.;6146538]Wasn't Superman created in a bleak world?[/QUOTE]

I don't know about bleak world..But,he was created during the depression..The character was both relatable and power fantasy at the same time.Not to mention action was exciting..Pow!pow!superman punches giant robots and breaks through walls and shit.

[QUOTE=Agent Z;6146544]The issue is that what these people want of Classic Superman has been almost everywhere since 2016 and these complaints still persist. These fans are getting what they want and it somehow still isn't enough for them.

AndI don't know how you can say we don't often get Superman depictions when he's the most exposed DC character behind only Batman.[/QUOTE]
Granted not all of those depictions are great (especially in relation to Batman).

[QUOTE=9th.;6146538]Wasn't Superman created in a bleak world?[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Agent Z;6146462]Every time someone says this, I wonder how they think "classic Superman" is going to fix any of this. These problems aren't new. They've existed long before Superman was created and continued to exist long after. This just comes across like more whining about a Superman you don't like existing instead of just following the one you do like. At this rate Superman fans are on par with StarcWars fans when it comes to hating what they supposedly love.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=manwhohaseverything;6146447]I don't understand the point of this thread..The batman was a success...Story demands what the tone should be..If you are going to put boundaries on what type stories can be told with a character.The continual repeatations may lead to people getting bored..
Better world..smaller world..side world..People want to be entertained.. Main point of any character[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Ascended;6145778]I think you'll find that most everyone agrees, but most everyone will disagree on what exactly "classic" means.[/QUOTE]

All of this. Everyone wants a idea of classic Superman but everyone's idea of what a classic Superman is or should be is always gonna be different. I will agree there is a lot of Superman material out now more than say in the whole post Rebirth era in terms of comics or games, but it is limited in comparison to Batman (still more than other DC fan bases though to be honest). But they still have been trying to meet that demand:

Kents back to life? Done, thanks Doomsday Clock.

Classic suit? ok, it's brought back (I like and admired them trying to do something and bring different designs to the costume like other artists did with Batman, Spidey, Iron Man, etc)

Married with Lois and having a son. Rebirth got you

You want Post Crisis Superman as the main Superman? Here you go. Oh, you liked New 52 Superman? Here are bits and pieces, to make you kind of satisfied.

You want Superman with a new costume dealing with modern issues? Superman: Son of Kal-el

You want to see more Donner influenced Superman or Superman in a period piece? Superman 78 and Space Age.

You want to see that classic Superman? They've been trying with DC Superpets, Joss Whedon JL, Arrowverse and Superman & Lois. It's not perfect and the quality is debatable but they have been trying.

I think my ideal Superman is a mix of Smallville, Golden Age/Fleischer cartoon/Tom De Haven It's Superman novel, DCAU and LOSH cartoon, the bronze age comics(Martin Pasko, Cary Bates and Elliot S. Maggin) and modern comics(a mix of Darwyn Cook New Frontier, Kurt Busiek, PKJ, Superman:Space Age,American Alien, Superman Birthright and Morrison takes)

I like both Kents and Els dead, Kal figuring out everything by himself, champion of the oppressed or galactic superhero/scientist and adventurer but I like Clark being married to Lois, having Jon. I think both Kal and Clark are both real parts of the Superman identity and both the disguise in a way. I prefer the classic secret identity but haven't had a problem with Superman going public as Clark (or more specifically they haven't done enough for me to properly judge whether or not it was a good idea). I like Clark being an efficient and effective reporter (post crisis Clark, New 52, George Reeves) but also like the clumsy Chris Reeve take of Clark. There have been comics where people perceived classic Superman going through moral dilemmas and doubting himself(For all seasons, Birthright, Secret Origins, Post Crisis, etc).

I don't want my favorite character to be stagnant but at the same time, I understand this is an IP that is bigger than me and everyone also has their own idea of what makes him work.

People say Superman shouldn't have a tragic backstory, but Superman's original origin either had his planet being destroyed and raised in an orphanage, Superman#1 had Clark being Superman after his Earth parents died or the Superman newspaper strip involved Superman choosing to be a reporter after failing to save people in a bank. Don't forget on the debate of who's the real identity and who's the disguise? Forget the debate of trunks or no trunks, there's been debate on if the classic Superman has an S on his cape. What should Superman's status quo be , or how can you make Superman move forward and not stagnant. Sometimes it feels there is no right way to please a fan base who have high expectations of Superman but at the same time the way DC/WB has been handling the ip, it feels like they are scared or don't know how to try, hence this stalemate.

I think the question is the idea of classic Superman actually was vs what fans think Superman is/should be, is there ever going to be a Superman that would actually please everyone across the board?(Young Justice vs DCAU fans , MOS vs Returns, Smallville vs S&L, etc)

I split the history of comic books in the United States and Canada into two broad eras: the Classic and the post-Classic.

The Classic is when essentially analog methods of production were used to create comics--everyone had to do everything by hand, digital was not an option, people often had to be in the same room to collaborate on projects.

The post-Classic is when new means of production came into fashion--offset printing instead of letterpress, digital colour separations, using computers to draw and ink pages, storing images on CMYK files, digital lettering, sending in scripts and art via electronics instead of taking them into the office by hand or mailing them in by express post, the shutting down of physical offices.

The transition was over a long period of time, but the crunch came in the late 1980s and early 1990s.

This makes it easy to say what is Classic and what is post-Classic. ;)