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[QUOTE=Mik;5495251]Maybe I'm being too hard on Peter and Mary jane, but that's what I've always gotten from this relationship. He's never shown as actually plain looking because comics for some reason don't allow normal looking characters. I don't care for the nerdy guy gets the hot girl trope because it always seems to be based on cliches
As for Scott and Hope, I know it's canon in MCU, but it bothers me how that relationship got less flack than Peter and MJ[/QUOTE]
You need to read more Spider-Man comics. May I recommend Amazing Spider-Man #259? (This was just after MJ has revealed to Peter that she knows he's Spider-Man, and then gives him her backstory.)
MJ had an abusive father and coped by running away from any sense of responsibility and then fell in love with a man who was genuinely good, selfless, and had the weight of the world on his shoulders. Even the Raimi movies understood this part (and the fact that Peter was a photographer and MJ was an actress).
These are messy broken people who have genuinely hurt each other but also love each other. (Gets even worse when you add Harry into the mix.)
I know Spider-Man has essentially become the big corporate mascot and a lot of the bite has been removed over the years, particularly in regards to the MCU incarnation where he has just been infantilized, but this is the good stuff right here.
(Peter x MJ gets a lot of flack because she isn't Gwen, who has totally been remembered as Peter's perfect soul mate, and not the broken person that she also was. The Garfield movies absolutely went with the "too good for this sinful earth" and that just isn't the girl who absolutely despised Spider-Man to the point that she willingly worked with an Anti-Spidey scumbag politician.)
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[QUOTE=Kevinroc;5495411]You need to read more Spider-Man comics. May I recommend Amazing Spider-Man #259? (This was just after MJ has revealed to Peter that she knows he's Spider-Man, and then gives him her backstory.)
MJ had an abusive father and coped by running away from any sense of responsibility and then fell in love with a man who was genuinely good, selfless, and had the weight of the world on his shoulders. Even the Raimi movies understood this part (and the fact that Peter was a photographer and MJ was an actress).[/QUOTE]
I probably need to check out more pre-90s Spider-Man. I've mostly read from the late 90s since, with some intermittent Silver/Bronze age comics. Thanks for the recommendation
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I don't think Peter...even in the 90s...was ever really intended to be plain looking or unattractive. He's been an attractive guy since at least the Romita era, and not just based on the artwork, but other characters commenting on his appearance. Even in the Ditko era, Gwen says Peter is attractive and "manly looking."
The early 90s was also a time when Mary Jane (like a lot of female comic book characters at the time) was oversexualized and drawn by artists like Macfarlane and Larsen to look like a supermodel caricature. She was always depicted as a being a beautiful woman, but not unrealistically so (at least up until that point.)
I think Zendaya would have been more than capable of pulling off the character had they gone the more traditional route.
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[QUOTE=Spider-Tiger;5495475]I don't think Peter...even in the 90s...was ever really intended to be plain looking or unattractive. He's been an attractive guy since at least the Romita era, and not just based on the artwork, but other characters commenting on his appearance.
The early 90s was also a time when Mary Jane (like a lot of female comic book characters at the time) was oversexualized and drawn by artists like Macfarlane and Larsen to look like a supermodel caricature. She was always depicted as a being a beautiful woman, but not unrealistically so (at least up until that point.)
I think Zendaya would have been more than capable of pulling off the character had they gone the more traditional route.[/QUOTE]
I guess my problem is Mary Jane being expected to be beautiful, as if every other Marvel character isn't. A plain or even unattractive character would ne a nice change of pace IMO
No knock against any actress playing her. I think this applies to the comics as well as other media
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[QUOTE=Mik;5495481]I guess my problem is Mary Jane being expected to be beautiful, as if every other Marvel character isn't. A plain or even unattractive character would ne a nice change of pace IMO
No knock against any actress playing her. I think this applies to the comics as well as other media[/QUOTE]
You must have missed the way the internet reacted to the casting of Shailene Woodley as Mary Jane in ASM 2 (before she was cut). And she isn't even unattractive! (That whole thing was so gross and embarrassing.)
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[QUOTE=Kevinroc;5495522]You must have missed the way the internet reacted to the casting of Shailene Woodley as Mary Jane in ASM 2 (before she was cut). And she isn't even unattractive![/QUOTE]
MJ was always meant to be beautiful.Solid 7-10.Shailene Woodley was amazing casting.I don't mind Zendaya and she could pull of a MJ if they gave her the red hair and attitude and made her like MJ and not a knockoff.
Peter was not the most attractive at first(in teen) and was like a 5-6.I am talking about when he ditched the glasses and the brown sweater(the classic nerd look no one wears now).Now he is a 7-10 as well
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[QUOTE=Spiderfan001;5495533]MJ was always meant to be beautiful.Solid 7-10.Shailene Woodley was amazing casting.I don't mind Zendaya and she could pull of a MJ if they gave her the red hair and attitude and made her like MJ and not a knockoff.
Peter was not the most attractive at first(in teen) and was like a 5-6.I am talking about when he ditched the glasses and the brown sweater(the classic nerd look no one wears now).Now he is a 7-10 as well[/QUOTE]
Spider-Man is a very horny character. And they've moved away from that horniness in the MCU films. It's part of their infantilization of the character and his world.
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I had no issues with Garfield’s portrayal of the character I thought he was very decent in-fact I say he is my second favorite live action incarnation of the character.
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[QUOTE=Spiderfan001;5495533]MJ was always meant to be beautiful.Solid 7-10.Shailene Woodley was amazing casting.I don't mind Zendaya and she could pull of a MJ if they gave her the red hair and attitude and made her like MJ and not a knockoff.
Peter was not the most attractive at first(in teen) and was like a 5-6.I am talking about when he ditched the glasses and the brown sweater(the classic nerd look no one wears now).Now he is a 7-10 as well[/QUOTE]
Why would he be unattractive with glasses on? This is what I'm getting at here. Nerdy guy meets hot girl. It's cliche and I can see why they didn't go in that direction
[QUOTE=Kevinroc;5495550]Spider-Man is a very horny character. And they've moved away from that horniness in the MCU films. It's part of their infantilization of the character and his world.[/QUOTE]
Honestly, I don't want to see a horny hero.
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[QUOTE=Mik;5495481]I guess my problem is Mary Jane being expected to be beautiful, as if every other Marvel character isn't. A plain or even unattractive character would ne a nice change of pace IMO
No knock against any actress playing her. I think this applies to the comics as well as other media[/QUOTE]
I'm not sure how this entire discussion of MJ's looks spun out, but my initial response to that Zendaya video was about MJ's personality and characterization, not her looks. I wasn't arguing that something was wrong with the casting of Zendaya or that her looks weren't up to par. Nor was I arguing that the MCU should've written a stereotypical story about a hot girl that hooks up with an unattractive nerd (that's not the story of Peter and Mary Jane.)
[QUOTE=Mik;5495941]Nerdy guy meets hot girl. It's cliche and I can see why they didn't go in that direction [/QUOTE]
Who is saying they should have done that though?
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[QUOTE=Mik;5495941]Honestly, I don't want to see a horny hero.[/QUOTE]
Then why talk about Spider-Man?
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[QUOTE=Mik;5495481]I guess my problem is Mary Jane being expected to be beautiful, as if every other Marvel character isn't. A plain or even unattractive character would ne a nice change of pace IMO[/QUOTE]
I don't think other Marvel characters have anything to do about it. Her "Face it Tiger..." introduction set her up as a beautiful, sassy, and confident woman and that's part of the core of the character in my opinion.
And considering how much writers vilified her for being attractive when they were trying to downplay her importance to the franchise, I don't think it should be seen as a bad thing. It's just one part of her character.
[QUOTE=Mik;5495941]Honestly, I don't want to see a horny hero.[/QUOTE]
I don't think horny is the right word for it. Peter just has a natural attraction to the opposite sex and longing for companionship.
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[QUOTE=Kevinroc;5496098]Then why talk about Spider-Man?[/QUOTE]
Because I like him for other reasons. Doesn't mean I like everything about him.
[QUOTE=Frontier;5496157]I don't think other Marvel characters have anything to do about it. Her "Face it Tiger..." introduction set her up as a beautiful, sassy, and confident woman and that's part of the core of the character in my opinion.
And considering how much writers vilified her for being attractive when they were trying to downplay her importance to the franchise, I don't think it should be seen as a bad thing. It's just one part of her character.
I don't think horny is the right word for it. Peter just has a natural attraction to the opposite sex and longing for companionship.[/QUOTE]
How did the writers vilify her for being attractive? Every Marvel character is basically attractive.
If he's longing for companionship, Marvel shouldn't have destroyed his marriage to her
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[QUOTE] I don't think Peter...even in the 90s...was ever really intended to be plain looking or unattractive. He's been an attractive guy since at least the Romita era, and not just based on the artwork, but other characters commenting on his appearance. Even in the Ditko era, Gwen says Peter is attractive and "manly looking." [/QUOTE]
You know the quite, kind of awkward, mousey girls that aren't supposed to be hot but everybody likes anyway? You know, Velman, Irma from Ninja Turtles, thosee types. The type of characters (in the series) might at best say "well, I guess she's kinda cute..." Peter is the male equivalent of those characters.
He's the cute boy-nerd.
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[QUOTE=Kevinroc;5495411](Peter x MJ gets a lot of flack because she isn't Gwen, who has totally been remembered as Peter's perfect soul mate, and not the broken person that she also was. The Garfield movies absolutely went with the "too good for this sinful earth" and that just isn't the girl who absolutely despised Spider-Man to the point that she willingly worked with an Anti-Spidey scumbag politician.)[/QUOTE]
I think you have it the other way around. Gwen gets a lot of flack because she's not MJ.
The fact that you bring up something that happened when she was still grieving her father's death only highlights it.