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[QUOTE=Alphaxman;5036938]If Marvel would have just let her join the X-Men as penance after AvX instead of joining with UA we would all be spared this debate. It didn't help that Remember had her tried to out-bitch Rogue when called out on her actions.[/QUOTE]
She’d be giving birth to Kurt’s babies right about now.
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[QUOTE=CoCoBandz;5036844]I wish, I could commit genocide out of spite and have my obvious responsibilty and accountability questioned without fail or most times flat out ignored.
What a level of privilege.[/QUOTE]
Why exactly does Apocalypse, Phoenix, and Mr. Sinister get this kind of privilege and Scarlet Witch not?
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[QUOTE=Alan2099;5037047]Why exactly does Apocalypse, Phoenix, and Mr. Sinister get this kind of privilege and Scarlet Witch not?[/QUOTE]
:|A|: will gladly tell you that he's ran over civilizatiions and nobody defends either him or Sinister.
The Phoenix is a universal force of nature and operates on a scale far beyond simple mortal, moral compasses.
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Cyclops had control of his Phoenix piece until he got more of it, that is why the P5 were benevolent and the conflict was about what they could do, which was a valid concern because the other 4 were unstable and not in control.
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[QUOTE=CoCoBandz;5037100]The Phoenix is a universal force of nature and operates on a scale far beyond simple mortal, moral compasses.[/QUOTE]
It's not like the Phoenix is beyond criticism… It became human enough to understand the concept of right and wrong.
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[QUOTE=Zelena;5037130]It's not like the Phoenix is beyond criticism… It became human enough to understand the concept of right and wrong.[/QUOTE]
But at the end of the day it's NOT human and has a job to do as a cosmic force.
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[QUOTE=CoCoBandz;5037132]But at the end of the day it's NOT human and has a job to do as a cosmic force.[/QUOTE]
What job? It is just there. If it hasn't met humans, it would have stayed just this cosmic thing without conscience.
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[QUOTE=Zelena;5037137]What job? It is just there. If it hasn't met humans, it would have stayed just this cosmic thing without conscience.[/QUOTE]
It eats dead end planets for a living. It's Galactus, but done right.
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[QUOTE=Zelena;5037137]What job? It is just there. If it hasn't met humans, it would have stayed just this cosmic thing without conscience.[/QUOTE]
It burns down what doesn't work. Or something else. The Phoenix story is a mess.
Aaron humanizing it like he did with Odin is sooo bad.
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[QUOTE=Veitha;5037143]It burns down what doesn't work. Or something else. The Phoenix story is a mess.
[B]Aaron humanizing it like he did with Odin is sooo bad.[/B][/QUOTE]
To think people actually liked that stuff. Yuck.
Wanda still sucks tho and she needs a cell.
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[font=Palatino Linotype][color=navy][size=3]Keep it about the comics & characters people, not each other. I've got no problem sending more people away if that kind of behavior continues. If you can't be civil don't post.[/size][/color][/font]
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Here's a suggestion, Wanda should stand trial for what she did. But, so should the others majorly responsible for Disassembled and M-Day.
Mephisto for erasing her children from existence (among many other crimes), Doom for taking advantage of a desperate and grieving Mother or at the very least being irresponsible by helping her get that much power to begin with, Quicksliver for his suggestion of altering reality to grant everyone's wishes and Magneto for outright trying to kill Quicksilver, which drove Wanda to M day to punish him.
Sound fair? Obviously Doom and Wanda would be the ones who take the most responsibility for M-Day but the roles of everyone else need to be acknowledged in any trial.
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That would include the Avengers, the X-men, Dr Strange and Xavier because them going to that meeting and admiting to not being able to help Wanda anymore and the theme or killing her off was brought to the table and then deciding to "seek her out" on Genosha was the thing that drove Quicksilver to be desperate enough to tell Wanda to give them what they wanted so they would not kill her.
I also dislike the thought of bringing Doom into this, that doesn´t seem fair to me because when Avengers Dissasembled and HoM was happening he was on literal hell so that retcon about him giving Wanda that "life force" powers doesn´t really made sense with continuity, neither it makes sense for Wanda to do HoM if she was being manipulated by him when he could have made her do a House of Doom kind of place.
I think it´s fair to judge her alone on the decimation because that was a decision she made by herself but to include all the context behind those events. I also dislike that the Avengers main argument for leaving it be was that well, we got back our members that were killed by her so everything is fine, given their own part on all this, like letting Agatha Harkness earse Wanda´s memory of her children when that also affected her mental balance while seeing the X-men as villains while they were still dealing with decimation.
I think the whole thing is a mess of badly made decisions made by marvel, if they didn´t do a proper trial, redemption journey for Wanda and closure for the storyline years ago it´s doubtful they will do so now, the less they could do imo is a proper journey to officially end decimation on the X-men side of things with or without Wanda´s participation and keep each character on their corner of the MU and maybe talk about what happened when they are ready and emotions are not ruling so high.
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[QUOTE=Havok83;5036644]Was she? Dark Phoenix lasted for about 1 day in Marvel time. She only did two horrible things as DP. She fought her friends but she did not kill them and then there was the D'Bari genocide. Wanda's reign of terror lasted across two stories. She fought and murdered her friends in Disassembled and then there was the mutant deciMation at the end of HoM. Jean fighting her friends was not worthy of death or punishment. Things escalated with the D'Bari genocide as she was immediately held accountable. That final battle that you mention was a trial by combat. In story Jean was held accountable and she faced the consequences of her actions. She chose to end it with her life. [/quote]
She destroyed Mastermind's mind, fights the X-men more then once, destroys a Shi'ar vessel, and commits genocide. More than two things. The X-men were lucky she didn't kill them, they were at more risk than the heroes fighting Wanda. Wanda wasn't in her right mind during those arcs, it's clear in thee text. Jean didn't kill herself as punishment, she did that to protect the X-men and the universe from the Pheonix killing them all. That wasn't an execution, the X-men stopped the Shi'ar from executing by trail of combat. The execution sentence by the Shi'ar horrified them. The Shi'Ar thought Jean should be killed for what she did, as well as other galactic empires like the Kree. And she did get a trial of sorts, and another one later on.
[quote]No Cyclops didnt kill himself, but he was arrested. He was held accountable. There was supposed to be a trial and the main reason he fled prison was bc the warden was corrupt and he was nearly killed. There was never actually going to be a trial bc he wasnt supposed to make it out alive[/quote]
Cyclops was never held accountable, he was arrested, broke out of prison before he could get a trial and became a fugitive. And no the time has passed he never will get a trial for his actions. Everyone wants to pretend the Pheonix Five didn't happen and Krkaoa Cyclops may as well be someone else who didn't do that - maybe Xavier purged his memories and everyone else's of those events when they were resurrected.
[quote]After destroying the mansion and killing several of them, the Avengers just let Wanda leave with Magneto instead of having her arrested on the spot for her crimes. She was not held accountable then. After the deciMation, she was scott free. Hawkeye found her and protected her. When the Avengers found her in CC, they protected her. Marvel really should have killed her off in the deciMation era[/quote]
This is selling short how conflicted the Avengers were during and after this. She lost friends over that, including her ex-husband. The Avengers got into massive arguments over her as a group, and it took years for many of them to forgive her - like Carol Danvers. She-Hulk hated her for a while, too. The Avengers did exactly the same for what the X-men for Jean Grey, they understood she was overwhelmed and not in her right mind and she was let down by her mentors - like Dr. Strange and Xavier. Those two got off scott free for failing Wanda when they knew she was in trouble. Dr. Strange victim blamed Wanda as if he could do nothing unless she went to him to study her magics, when he knew a time bomb was going off. Before this he didn't tell a soul and left Wanda alone and isolated. She may not have died but she was punished, as I've explained earlier both inside and outside comics. The Avengers fandom forgave her for Disassembled, the X-fandom didn't for M-Day.
[quote]Doom has his own island. Im sure his fiancee had access to it. Thats really besides the point though[/quote]
When she was amnesiac and powerless for a long period.
[quote]What danger? You must be buying into the rhetoric told by AvX. Prior to that the PF was a force of good that has done good by the mutants. Just a few years prior Jean had it, and she was fine. Rachel had it and she was fine. The only bad experience Scott saw was the DP but that was bc Jean was targeted, manipulated and driven crazy. That wasnt likely to happen with Hope considering they were training her and not messing with her mind. His agenda? The only agenda he had was to clean up the SW's mess.[/QUOTE]
The Phoenix Force is like Galactus, it's a world eater and the X-men barely keep it contained. In the original DPS the X-men were mostly powerless to stop it, every victory they got was short lived. Rachel was the best wielder I've seen, but she knew the risk she took if she was unable to control it, the slightest mistake and millions could die. Scott couldn't control the Phoenix, he took over the world and murdered people and he didn't have the excuse Jean did that the Phoenix made a copy of her. His agenda was to become a despot and be corrupted by absolute power, like Gandalf said would happen to him if he got Sauron's ring.
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[QUOTE=Steel Inquisitor;5037465]She destroyed Mastermind's mind, fights the X-men more then once, destroys a Shi'ar vessel, and commits genocide. More than two things. The X-men were lucky she didn't kill them, they were at more risk than the heroes fighting Wanda. Wanda wasn't in her right mind during those arcs, it's clear in thee text. Jean didn't kill herself as punishment, she did that to protect the X-men and the universe from the Pheonix killing them all. That wasn't an execution, the X-men stopped the Shi'ar from executing by trail of combat. The execution sentence by the Shi'ar horrified them. The Shi'Ar thought Jean should be killed for what she did, as well as other galactic empires like the Kree. And she did get a trial of sorts, and another one later on. [/quote]Same story and all happened within the same 24 hour time span. Again she paid for anything she do so its moot.
[QUOTE]Cyclops was never held accountable, he was arrested, broke out of prison before he could get a trial and became a fugitive. And no the time has passed he never will get a trial for his actions. Everyone wants to pretend the Pheonix Five didn't happen and Krkaoa Cyclops may as well be someone else who didn't do that - maybe Xavier purged his memories and everyone else's of those events when they were resurrected.
[/QUOTE]You are simply ignoring facts now. He was arrested and there was years worth of story where the superhero community blasted him for what he had done, despite being possessed by the PF. IA that a trial should have happened but Wolverine nor Steve Rogers ensured his safety so that would could happen. They left him in a prison where he was nearly murdered and he had to leave to protect his life.
[QUOTE]This is selling short how conflicted the Avengers were during and after this. She lost friends over that, including her ex-husband. The Avengers got into massive arguments over her as a group, and it took years for many of them to forgive her - like Carol Danvers. She-Hulk hated her for a while, too. The Avengers did exactly the same for what the X-men for Jean Grey, they understood she was overwhelmed and not in her right mind and she was let down by her mentors - like Dr. Strange and Xavier. Those two got off scott free for failing Wanda when they knew she was in trouble. Dr. Strange victim blamed Wanda as if he could do nothing unless she went to him to study her magics, when he knew a time bomb was going off. Before this he didn't tell a soul and left Wanda alone and isolated. She may not have died but she was punished, as I've explained earlier both inside and outside comics. The Avengers fandom forgave her for Disassembled, the X-fandom didn't for M-Day. [/QUOTE]
thats where we disagree bc she was not punished at all.
[quote]
The Phoenix Force is like Galactus, it's a world eater and the X-men barely keep it contained. In the original DPS the X-men were mostly powerless to stop it, every victory they got was short lived. Rachel was the best wielder I've seen, but she knew the risk she took if she was unable to control it, the slightest mistake and millions could die. Scott couldn't control the Phoenix, he took over the world and murdered people and he didn't have the excuse Jean did that the Phoenix made a copy of her. His agenda was to become a despot and be corrupted by absolute power, like Gandalf said would happen to him if he got Sauron's ring.[/QUOTE]
Rachel did for years as did Jean outside of the time she was targeted and driven insane. Cyclops couldnt control it bc he wasnt meant to. He did not go into that story wanting to seize the power for himself. It was forced on him. Hope was the intended host and things were rectified once she had access to the PF as Scott originally intended.