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[QUOTE=Muad'Dib;85763]I'm not a fan of the sub-genrification of artforms. Not in music, not in comics, and certainly not in film/animation. The medium is the medium, and genrification serves no purpose in the art itself, but does serve in the realms of marketing/promotion/sales...to me it serves to divide us into camps rather than unite us in a love of the art, the storytelling, the creators. Animation is animation regardless of what timezone its produced in. Comics are comics regardless of the home nation of the creator.[/QUOTE]
I get your point, I really do but sub-classification and genrefication of music, animation and comics helps. Somebody might like rock music only, another one likes pop music only. Same with comics and animation, somebody likes bugs bunny cartoons but not anime, somebody likes mecha anime but not slice of life anime. That's why these terms are easier and help people to describe in short what kind of music/animation/comics they like. I don't like all kinds of music or everything animated or every comic but I still consider myself a fan of all of these. So I don't see genrefication being the reason for dividing fans into different camps, we mostly do it ourselves. And even from marketing/promotion point it helps fans also to classify these things because when I hear about a comic it helps me to estimate whether I might enjoy it or not and whether I should spent money on it when I hear if it's an American superhero comic or a Japanese high school drama comic. Because I don't usually care for the latter type while I usually love the former.
All in all I don't have any problem to call manga comics and anime cartoons and often I do use them that way because it's a shorter and quicker way to describe my interest by saying that I'm a fan of animation and comics than I'm a fan of American and European comics, manga, anime and western animation/cartoons. However when I discuss with someone online for example about our interests then it's easier to use terms like anime and manga to separate Japanese cartoons and comics so when they say they read manga then I immediately know what they are talking about.
There's also the fact that anime and manga are usually made in Japan by Japanese and mainly for the Japanese first and foremost so cultural differences affect the product and make it very different from its western counterparts both stylistically and thematically. Some people that like western animation and comics don't care about Japanese because they can't get over the style differences. And I have sometimes had trouble watching anime series because I didn't know all of the Japanese mythology or all the folk tales involved or referenced in them. So Japanese products getting their own terms in US/Europe while European/US products don't get them is more justified because there are more differences when you compare American comics/animation to Japanese comics/animation than if you compare them to European comics/animation.
Of course it varies with some anime being very western influenced (Cowboy Bebop) while some western cartoons are very anime influenced (Teen Titans, Avatar) but usually there are some distinct differences. So separate terms like manga and anime aren't that bad but they're still not that important to me and I could honestly go either way with it and can't see why anyone would care about it that much because at the end of the day it is all comics and animation after all.
I do however think that words manga and anime have now become so associated as the terms for Japanese comics and cartoons in western world that it would probably be kind of difficult to get people to start talking about them under the umbrella of comics and cartoons. For example in my mind at least, if somebody mentions the word cartoon I first think of funny animals and slapstick, Bugs Bunny, Garfield, Daffy Duck, Woody Woodpecker, Flintstones or Scooby-Doo or something classic like that but when someone mentions the word anime I think of practically noseless, big eyed girls in school girl uniforms with rainbow colored hairs, giant robots and maybe martial arts, some weird and violent/gorey **** (and tentacles too sometimes, lol), you know, Haruhi Suzumiya, Sailor Moon, DBZ, Gundam, Miyazaki's work, NGE, and what have we.
Incidentally if somebody adds Saturday and morning in front of the word cartoons I start thinking about TMNT, Transformers, Thundercats and before or after school (cartoons) make me think of Ducktales, Goof Troop, Darkwing Duck etc.
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My one gripe tends to be with the people who'll say something like, "Oh, I hate comics!"
And when you point out that they read lots of comics, they'll say, "Oh No, those aren't comics, they're [i]manga[/i]!" or "They're [i]graphic novels[/i]!"
Too often it's misused as sekrit code for 'the comics I like'.
And it's the same with a lot of people who want to nitpick about subgenres. They just don't wanna cop to enjoying cartoons or comic books or listening to country and western or rap music or whatever...
"It's NOT dance music, it's EDM!" or whatever...
THOSE people.
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[QUOTE=Pól Rua;91538]My one gripe tends to be with the people who'll say something like, "Oh, I hate comics!"
And when you point out that they read lots of comics, they'll say, "Oh No, those aren't comics, they're [i]manga[/i]!" or "They're [i]graphic novels[/i]!"
Too often it's misused as sekrit code for 'the comics I like'.
And it's the same with a lot of people who want to nitpick about subgenres. They just don't wanna cop to enjoying cartoons or comic books or listening to country and western or rap music or whatever...
"It's NOT dance music, it's EDM!" or whatever...
THOSE people.[/QUOTE]
Amen.
I watched a friend get eviscerated last year for posting on facebook that, essentially, everyone reading her post has read comics probably that week, whether they think of themselves as someone who reads comics, or not, because most instructional pamphlets or posted safety notices are formatted as comics, if you're on facebook, you're seeing mots and one-panel comics regularly, political cartoons or the tag of a Garfield strip stuck on a coffee mug. Even people who'd cop to reading half of Vertigo's ouput, or something, were still all "I don't read comics! I don't like [insert genre, probably superheroes, here]."
That stuff's ridiculous.
Comics should be the default English term, because it's the only one that embraces, in its rough definition, everything, while others have regional, genre, or page count qualifications. From Spider-Man Unlimited to One Piece to Blondie or Philosoraptor, it's all comics.
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I've always been of the opinion that Japanese anime is MUCH more sophisticated than American made cartoons in terms of style, substance and story, so, in my mind, there IS a difference between the two terms. Can you imagine U.S. studios, forever hamstrung by the FCC, holier-than-thou religious groups and legions of overprotective parents producing shows chock full of violence, bloodshed, rampant gunplay and swordplay, yuri, hentai, nudity, harems, horror, girls with guns, girls with monster boobs, the whole nine yards like Japan does? That's why the U.S. has done boatloads of goofy, funny and cutesy-pie stuff while Japan brought us classics like Akira, Cowboy Bebop, Evangelion and so forth.
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WestPhillyPunisher, what about, say, AEon Flux or American Pop? In terms of maturity and quality, I'd put American Pop, or even Coonskin, against the majority of cartoons from anywhere. Certainly, having less comedy in something, too, doesn't make it any more mature. Eva had quite a bit of comedy. I think anybody that feels Antz is a bad movie or The Simpson's doesn't have a mature sense of humor is off their rocker (or, y'know, have different tastes than me), but "off their rocker" sounds more dramatic).
I'm not sure "monster boobs" and harems actually net you one-for-one "more sophisticated," though, and certainly, on a technical level, American animation has made some great strides for the world.
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One major difference between manga, N American comics, Euro-comics, and British comics is the variety of format. In N American, the 20 page monthly issue still reigns supreme. It's graphic albums in Europe. Manga has its phone books. The Brits have their 6-8 page weekly progs. That is a distinction that does need to be considered, in my opinion. As does the methods of production for those forms of comics. Again, there are cultures within those various regional industries that have different expectations for the production and reception of their product that does need to be considered.
The comic strip vs comic book dichtomy is a good one to examine in terms of similarities and differences. Yes, at core, they are both comics, but in production and excpectation, they are different beasts.
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Here's another crazy thing, though. At one point, I walked into a comic book store, and indicated to the store owner that I wanted to order some Marvel comics, referring to them by the Dutch word [I]stripboeken[/I] (which is the neutral translation of 'comic books'). And he insisted that I call them by the English word [I]comics[/I], as he apparently felt they were distinct from European comics like [I]Tintin[/I] and [I]Suske & Wiske[/I]. I was kind of confused, but decided to go along with it.
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[QUOTE]I've always been of the opinion that Japanese anime is MUCH more sophisticated than American made cartoons in terms of style, substance and story, so, in my mind, there IS a difference between the two terms.[/QUOTE]
Your opinion is WRONG. The most popular animes have basically been Sailor Moon, Dragon Ball Z, and Pokemon. Nothing about them is anymore sophisticated than your average episode of G.I. Joe, Ninja Turtles, or (tremble) My Little Pony.
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[QUOTE=Alan2099;92836]Your opinion is WRONG. The most popular animes have basically been Sailor Moon, Dragon Ball Z, and Pokemon. Nothing about them is anymore sophisticated than your average episode of G.I. Joe, Ninja Turtles, or (tremble) My Little Pony.[/QUOTE]I have no idea what to say about sailor Moon, never saw it, always looked like mindless $#%^ about a bunch of simply mindless people
As for more sophisticated, think of things like Death Note, Code Geasse, and other kinds of thriller/drama/psycho analyses genre.
I could guess even Pokemon and Dragonball Z count to some as more sophisticated because of the heavy explaining they do at times, or as people nitpicking Christopher Nolan movies call such explaining: "Exposition Dialogue"
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[QUOTE=Alan2099;92836]Your opinion is WRONG. The most popular animes have basically been Sailor Moon, Dragon Ball Z, and Pokemon. Nothing about them is anymore sophisticated than your average episode of G.I. Joe, Ninja Turtles, or (tremble) My Little Pony.[/QUOTE]
Popular in Japan or over here in America?
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[QUOTE=Alan2099;92836]Your opinion is WRONG. The most popular animes have basically been Sailor Moon, Dragon Ball Z, and Pokemon. Nothing about them is anymore sophisticated than your average episode of G.I. Joe, Ninja Turtles, or (tremble) My Little Pony.[/QUOTE]
Apparently you haven't watched very much anime other than what you described. I never said anything about popular, just sophisticated. Other than the examples I mentioned, throw in the Gundam franchise, Fullmetal Alchemist, Ghost in the Shell, the films of Hayao Miyazaki and Satoshi Kon, Hellsing, Black Lagoon, Clannad, ARIA, the samples are many and varied. Bottom line, there's much more to anime beyond what you've seen on Cartoon Network. And besides, who's to say anybody is right or wrong, I was merely expressing an opinion.
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Sailor Moon, Dragonball Z, and Pokemon were made for the under-7 crowd. And Dragonball Z was originally aired nearly 20 years ago. Go ahead and enjoy them, but I can't see any reason to judge the entire Japanese animation industry by them!
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Isn't manga Japanese for comic ? Always thought cartoons was anime .
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I have been consuming anime and manga in large quantities for around 20 years. I just call them cartoons and Japanese comics most of the time. I don't really have a problem with people choosing to use anime and manga as the terms though unless they are those people who get mad if you call them what they really are.
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[QUOTE=WestPhillyPunisher;93317]Apparently you haven't watched very much anime other than what you described. I never said anything about popular, just sophisticated. Other than the examples I mentioned, throw in the Gundam franchise, Fullmetal Alchemist, Ghost in the Shell, the films of Hayao Miyazaki and Satoshi Kon, Hellsing, Black Lagoon, Clannad, ARIA, the samples are many and varied. Bottom line, there's much more to anime beyond what you've seen on Cartoon Network. And besides, who's to say anybody is right or wrong, I was merely expressing an opinion.[/QUOTE]
You presume too much.
I've been watching anime since it was widely known as Japanimation. Personal favorites of mine include Trigun, Cowboy Bebop, Hellsing (although I seem to be one of the few that prefer the original series), Lupin III, Spirited Away, Excel Saga, The Cat Returns, and Voltron (preferring the english version to the Japanese source material.)
Also Evangeleon sucks. I just want to get that out there. It's a horrible series. I never cared for Deathnote either. Oddly enough, I do enjoy Highschool of the Dead, even though the series by all rights should be considered garbage.
Anyway, what I'm trying to say is that I don't think it's fair to say that anime as a whole is of higher quality simply because [I]some[/I] of the titles titles that are good.
I've seen Fencer of Minerva and Ikkitousen. You're not going to convince me that anime should be put on some high pedestal of ultimate quality.