What characters/franchises do you think would be better off outside of the main DC continuity?
What characters/franchises do you think would be better off outside of the main DC continuity?
Dont know there all pretty iso to me.
Superman is one that would be way better off on his own universe, but probably almost all characters could use some isolation and freedom.
Guess you could say any of them but I guess the ones created before a main continuity became a thing or originally came from separate companies (Superman, Wonder Woman, Captain Marvel, the Charleton heroes, etc).
Fawcett era Captain Marvel comes to mind. Watchmen too, but it'll probably be hard to put that genie back in the bottle.
Quite a few of them come to mind, but Batman, Captain Marvel/Shazam, and JSA are my top three.
[QUOTE=BlueElf94;5268064]Fawcett era Captain Marvel comes to mind. Watchmen too, but it'll probably be hard to put that genie back in the bottle.[/QUOTE]
captain marvel,superman,watchmen..etc all need to be out of the shared universe nonsense.pronto.
Constantine- he works better on his own.
Wildstorm/Milestone/mighty crusaders were all separate universes incorporated into the DCU. Do they count?
The new age of heroes would've worked better at Valiant. Same with the Unexpected or the Revolutionaries. Valiant is a smaller shared universe but it feels less mapped out or set in stone.
Batman, for sure. Which is not to say that he [I]shouldn't[/I] be in the DCU or there aren't stories to be told there. But this is definitely a franchise that can (and in many cases should) function independently.
Batman, Superman, Captain Marvel/Shazam, John Constantine, Watchmen characters are a few that I think work best in their own universes. Not that there aren't great stories with them in the DCU but I think separately they work well.
This goes especially for Constantine though. He's been decent since he became part of the main DC Universe again but he still feels like a shell of his Hellblazer days
[QUOTE=The Kid;5268355]Batman, Superman, Captain Marvel/Shazam, John Constantine, Watchmen characters are a few that I think work best in their own universes. Not that there aren't great stories with them in the DCU but I think separately they work well.
This goes especially for Constantine though. He's been decent since he became part of the main DC Universe again but he still feels like a shell of his Hellblazer days[/QUOTE]
Go read Si Spurrier’s Hellblazer if you haven’t already. It’s the best Constantine I’ve read since the Delano/Ennis days. Only 12 issues too unfortunately, could’ve been an all time great if DC hadn’t cut it short at 12.
Anything from Wildstorm.
[QUOTE=Vordan;5268458]Go read Si Spurrier’s Hellblazer if you haven’t already. It’s the best Constantine I’ve read since the Delano/Ennis days. Only 12 issues too unfortunately, could’ve been an all time great if DC hadn’t cut it short at 12.[/QUOTE]
Been missing out on some good Constantine so I'll have to make sure I do that
The more down to Earth characters. Green Arrow works best as a stand alone character. Batman, of course. Black Canary depending on how it's handled. Flash could work because he only has one power. Ted Kord Blue Beetle.
There aren't many I would say have to exist in a separate isolated reality to work at their best, so long as there is less wank and more nuanced and thought going into the characters at play; writers (if yall lurking) it's not that hard to google what these characters were doing and can do before choosing to use them. characters like Batman and Superman (imo) work best in a shared universe so long as there are other characters who are allowed to appear as competent (if not more so) and of a similar high profile in-universe. I will say things like Milestone and Watchmen have been independent for so long that they are best left in isolation and explored in their own continuity.
Its an incredibly obvious answer but only because its so incredibly true with so many examples: Superman.
DC in general has a lot of characters that were created to be sole superheroes in their universes (with maybe a one-off crossover every now and then). But because of that, you have a bunch of characters who have their own mythology that often has nothing to do with the other characters so when you combine it all, it can be a mixed bag.
Someone on this forum once said that Marvel was essentially made by two creators whereas DC was built around two superheroes (Batman and Superman). As a result, a lot of the characters and teams fit the same tone and were organically part of the same universe but in DC, you have so many characters with different tones, stories, and backstories not involving any other superheroes so it doesn't come as easily. Over the years, I think DC [I]has[/I] made the shared universe a lot more seamless but just based on the origins of many of their characters, there will always be some division
Personally, any character created by another company or imprint should be on their own Earth with the others from that same company. Otherwise, everyone else can stay.
Superman probably, with the only other IP he shares continuity with being the Legion of Superheroes.
Wonder Woman and the Marvel Family as well.
[QUOTE=The Darknight Detective;5268832]Personally, any character created by another company or imprint should be on their own Earth with the others from that same company. Otherwise, everyone else can stay.[/QUOTE]
Well, I've enjoyed the crossover and team-ups we've gotten from porting the Charlton characters over, so I don't mind too much :).
[QUOTE=Frontier;5268971]Well, I've enjoyed the crossover and team-ups we've gotten from porting the Charlton characters over, so I don't mind too much :).[/QUOTE]
I did, too, and having them on their own exclusive Earth wouldn't prohibit any of that, either. Having said that, Captain Atom would be in a better place away from Superman on a regular basis, IMO.
[QUOTE=The Darknight Detective;5268990]I did, too, and having them on their own exclusive Earth wouldn't prohibit any of that, either. Having said that, Captain Atom would be in a better place away from Superman on a regular basis, IMO.[/QUOTE]
I mean, I'm not sure if constant dimension-hopping would've had the same effect...but I also haven't read Cap's entire Post-Crisis run to get a feel for how he was used there, but he got a big moment in Superman/Batman in a Post-Crisis Earth.
[QUOTE=The Darknight Detective;5268990]I did, too, and having them on their own exclusive Earth wouldn't prohibit any of that, either. Having said that, Captain Atom would be in a better place away from Superman on a regular basis, IMO.[/QUOTE]
Agreed. IIRC Watchmen was originally written by Moore with the hopes that he could use Charlton characters but switched to original characters when DC didn't give him permission. Captain Atom is supposed to be a Doctor Manhattan type character but you'd never know based on his DC because he's like a D-Lister and will never get to shine in events when guys like Superman, Wonder Woman, or hell.. Captain Marvel (another character who works best in his own Earth) will get used more than him
[QUOTE=The Kid;5269195]Agreed. IIRC Watchmen was originally written by Moore with the hopes that he could use Charlton characters but switched to original characters when DC didn't give him permission. Captain Atom is supposed to be a Doctor Manhattan type character but you'd never know based on his DC because he's like a D-Lister and will never get to shine in events when guys like Superman, Wonder Woman, or hell.. Captain Marvel (another character who works best in his own Earth) will get used more than him[/QUOTE]
Things turned out well for Blue Beetle though (and Question, arguably).
Shazam deserves his own world with its own rules and mythology.
[QUOTE=Frontier;5269220]Things turned out well for Blue Beetle though (and Question, arguably).[/QUOTE]
Street-level superheroes from other companies don't have the same problems fitting on the main Earth like the powerful and duplicate-power ones do.
[QUOTE=The Darknight Detective;5269301]Street-level superheroes from other companies don't have the same problems fitting on the main Earth like the powerful and duplicate-power ones do.[/QUOTE]
I feel like it's not impossible since the powerful and "duplicate" characters were able to hold their own mythos, series, and guest appearances in Post-Crisis.
[QUOTE=Frontier;5269323]I feel like it's not impossible since the powerful and "duplicate" characters were able to hold their own mythos, series, and guest appearances in Post-Crisis.[/QUOTE]
It's not that they can't hold their own, but they tend to play second fiddle to the DC-created A-listers. That wasn't the case when they had their own worlds during the Bronze Age, FWIW.
[QUOTE=The Darknight Detective;5269359]It's not that they can't hold their own, but they tend to play second fiddle to the DC-created A-listers. That wasn't the case when they had their own worlds during the Bronze Age, FWIW.[/QUOTE]
Even Superman and Wonder Woman sometimes struggle with sharing space with each other, so it's no surprise DC can't really be arsed about Captain Atom who unlike the other two didn't even start under the same roof.
[QUOTE=The Darknight Detective;5269359]It's not that they can't hold their own, but they tend to play second fiddle to the DC-created A-listers. That wasn't the case when they had their own worlds during the Bronze Age, FWIW.[/QUOTE]
I can't imagine they felt second fiddle within their own Post-Crisis, books, though.
[QUOTE=SiegePerilous02;5269378]Even Superman and Wonder Woman sometimes struggle with sharing space with each other, so it's no surprise DC can't really be arsed about Captain Atom who unlike the other two didn't even start under the same roof.[/QUOTE]
Do they, though?
I am of the opinion that things like the Charlton characters should probably get their own Earths. DC comics can still exist as a company there but they don't exist as real people. Ditto Shazam/Captain Marvel.
Frankly, I think they [I]all[/I] work best in their own separate worlds rather than teamed up, unless it was a group of characters that were invented specifically to be a particular team. That said, John Constantine in particular should not be part of the mainstream DCU, because he can be only a pale imitation of his true self there. He's what Black Label was meant to be all about, originally.
[B]CYBORG[/B]
The character has so much potential that has been hindered due to a variety of reasons that , IMO, seem to all stem from editorial decisions.
The character has the potential for huge aesthetic / visual appeal (appealing sci fi power armor designs).
The character can be written with a focus on earth based tech *or* alien tech with adventures in outer space.
He happens to check off multiple "diversity" boxes.
The character is often drawn with a sci fi laser attachments which translate into built in toy and costume sales.
The only thing holding the character back is wish fulfillment i.e. removal of his " (horrible) legacy" metal face plate and being written as a background character to Batman and Superman.
Give Cyborg his own universe without having to be forced to take a back seat for the Big 3 to shine and you have a fantastic blank slate to build upon.
Look at Iron Man, X-O ManoWar, Mega Man (Rockman), and virtually any armored character. They all have differing levels of appeal but they all have APPEAL.
It's crazy that in this current technological age and coming off of an iconic TV show in Mr. Robot with a focus on tech , hacking , etc, that DC didn't capitalize on Cyborg.
There are other characters that have a higher profile than Cyborg but IMO he has the most potential of any character on the DC roster.
Cyborg needs his own universe with a complete removal of the company imposed limitations they've saddled the character with.
[QUOTE=Frontier;5269391]Do they, though?[/QUOTE]
Kinda. Superman is meant to be the strongest, but Wonder Woman and Captain Marvel are hyped to be on par with him which Superman fans don't like. Wonder Woman fans don't like her ceiling being defined by Superman, and similarly the temptation to avoid pairing them up together would be easier to avoid if they weren't in a shared universe. There is also the hijacking of all the dumb crossovers
I think the positives outweigh the negatives, but lack of a shared universe would be a relief to some.
I haven't enjoyed narratives where Superman, Batman, et al are in the only heroes in their world. I think some degree of isolation or being in their own continuity bubble helps them but I don't want to close the door completely on a Superman/Batman team up. Batman himself works for me when he is a street level vigilante but still has to deal with threats like Clayface, Mr. Freeze and Poison Ivy whereas characters like Dick Grayson and Tim Drake are better served when they get to interact with the larger universe.
Considering the fact that most DC heroes weren't meant to go together, pretty much any of them could exist in their own solo verse. The question is how long would that last? The standalone B:TAS eventually paved the way for the DCAU, a stand alone GA show served as a stepping stone to a live action Crisis on Infinite Earths cross over, even over at Marvel the 90's IM couldn't help but eventually add Hawkeye and Scarlet Witch to it's roster and of course the IM movie ended up paving the way for a multi franchise cross over worth a billion dollars. For the sake of longevity, any series is going to have to branch out.
That said I think the Fawcett characters and Milestone characters (with the exception of Static) work best when they are the primary heroes of their world and not in an overcrowded shared universe. Constantine as well, works best when he is in his own universe and not being DC's answer to Dr. Strange.
[QUOTE=Customizer;5269569][B]CYBORG[/B]
The character has so much potential that has been hindered due to a variety of reasons that , IMO, seem to all stem from editorial decisions.
The character has the potential for huge aesthetic / visual appeal (appealing sci fi power armor designs).
The character can be written with a focus on earth based tech *or* alien tech with adventures in outer space.
He happens to check off multiple "diversity" boxes.
The character is often drawn with a sci fi laser attachments which translate into built in toy and costume sales.
The only thing holding the character back is wish fulfillment i.e. removal of his " (horrible) legacy" metal face plate and being written as a background character to Batman and Superman.
Give Cyborg his own universe without having to be forced to take a back seat for the Big 3 to shine and you have a fantastic blank slate to build upon.
Look at Iron Man, X-O ManoWar, Mega Man (Rockman), and virtually any armored character. They all have differing levels of appeal but they all have APPEAL.
It's crazy that in this current technological age and coming off of an iconic TV show in Mr. Robot with a focus on tech , hacking , etc, that DC didn't capitalize on Cyborg.
There are other characters that have a higher profile than Cyborg but IMO he has the most potential of any character on the DC roster.
Cyborg needs his own universe with a complete removal of the company imposed limitations they've saddled the character with.[/QUOTE]
This seems to be two very different arguments entirely. None of what you are asking of Cyborg requires him being in his own universe. Two of the characters you listed are in shared universes.
[QUOTE=SiegePerilous02;5269673]Kinda. Superman is meant to be the strongest, but Wonder Woman and Captain Marvel are hyped to be on par with him which Superman fans don't like. Wonder Woman fans don't like her ceiling being defined by Superman, and similarly the temptation to avoid pairing them up together would be easier to avoid if they weren't in a shared universe. There is also the hijacking of all the dumb crossovers
I think the positives outweigh the negatives, but lack of a shared universe would be a relief to some.[/QUOTE]
I don't think it really matters so much as they're the strongest within their own stories and have fun team-ups, but that's just my take on it.
I think the character back-and-forth and dynamics are more worthwhile than a character one-up manship.
Superman, Captain Marvel, and Wonder Woman.
Basically any character defined by being the "best, most powerful" because they wind up stepping over each other. They shouldn't have to, but DC is pretty terrible at balancing them.
That's why Superman has this whiplash portrayal where he jobs eleven months out of the year, then he loses his temper and demolishes [B]everyone[/B] single-handed in the span of a page. Or why Wonder Woman gets touted as the "greatest warrior" but almost never lives up to that title (usually the first to drop during one of Supes' aforementioned mood swings). And why Cap has been rolling disinterestedly on the kitchen floor with no place or direction.
They don't complement one another and would be better off in their own worlds.
[QUOTE=Agent Z;5269770]This seems to be two very different arguments entirely. None of what you are asking of Cyborg requires him being in his own universe. Two of the characters you listed are in shared universes.[/QUOTE]
I agree to an extent. [B]No fictional character needs to be placed in their own universe in order to be written well and to have their best characteristics highlighted consistently.[/B] However it seems that many characters do require their own universe because decisions made by writers , corporations or editorial staff hinders the full development of said characters.
In order for some characters to really develop they need new surroundings and independent agency.
This is starting to read like what is said about borderline star athletes being traded to a new team in order to flourish in professional sports heh. Or individual members of a band striking out on their own.
Maybe Cassandra Cain.