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[QUOTE=Sutekh;5018294]For both of them, really. Both characters have been a mess since those days.
Arguably, the same is true of Wanda, post-Vision. As part of a 'power couple,' writers seemed less prone to mess with her, but once she was on her own, she became easy pickings for Byrne, Bendis, etc. to drive her cray-cray or whatever, between 'Darker than Scarlet' and 'No More Mutants.'
I kinda wish they'd play up her Romani heritage a little for the shallow reason that, if she was visibly diverse, writers might fear the optics of heaping too much abuse on the character.[/QUOTE]
I could not agree more with your assessment of the situation. Bad stuff happened to Wanda during her time with the Vision, but a lot of evil dudes and chicks didn't want to mess with her when they knew an arm or two could literally go through them at any point. I know it's old-fashioned, but when Pietro, Vision and Simon were there with her, she was less vulnerable to bad writing. For the past thirty years her personal life has been an absolute MESS, and a lot of the bad stuff that's happened to her is when she was alone. To play up the Romani angle for diversity reasons alone is REALLY cynical and cheap, but I'd even be okay with it if it forces the people at Marvel to give her a fair shake.
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[QUOTE=gurkle;5018271]Oh, I totally understand, but I just think the Avengers title needs romance arcs. That's my big problem with the Roger Stern era - hardly any romance at all. So it made sense to me that we would get Vision and Simon both wanting Wanda at some point. I'm just glad Byrne wasn't the one who did that story.[/QUOTE]
I suppose I'm fine with a little bit of romance in the comic books. But I just think love triangles can be really lame in that format. They literally become soap operas and go on for SO LONG. They're basically literary versions of cheesy country music songs in my view. I was actually sort of waiting for Vision to yell "How could you do me like that?!" to Simon at some point during their love triangle with Wanda.
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[QUOTE=GenericUsername;5018249]It's not dismissive at all. I get you like it, but that doesn't mean there was a lot there. There was barely anything there. Your preference for it doesn't make it more.
And I didn't say she didn't try to fix M-day. I said their chance to have her on that side primarily could have happened after M-day as in part of her making up for things done, and they didn't do it. You gotta read my posts more carefully if you are gonna try to take offense all the time.
I'm talking about putting her on that side for most of her appearances. Which isn't gonna happen. Unless in 20 years they make her an X-character. Which would not be my preference. Because I like her being an Avenger. You can dream of her being on that side and Mags kid if you want. It just hasn't served her well. If she stays primarily an Avenger and a mutant, then you have the same as it was before. Mentioned at times, but nothing more than a fact about her.
If you really think they had her serve the mutant cause while being an Avenger, I don't know what to do to help you with that kind of headcanon. Because they had only a couple instances where she was discriminated against, and only brought up her being mutant when she used her powers. Yes, you have to actually serve the cause for it to count. It being brought up in special moments is not enough.[/QUOTE]
we have our difrences but I reaaaaly love responses like these because they are written perfectly, like if I was an english teacher teacher the only red marker on this would be an A +
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[QUOTE=Ferro;5018327]we have our difrences but I reaaaaly love responses like these because they are written perfectly, like if I was an english teacher teacher the only red marker on this would be an A +[/QUOTE]
Well I also really like Tyrande Whisperwind so there's that too, haha.
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[QUOTE=GenericUsername;5018334]Well I also really like Tyrande Whisperwind so there's that too, haha.[/QUOTE]
there were some really interesting developments in the alpha, she will have a somewhat sizeable story at launch
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[QUOTE=Ferro;5018340]there were some really interesting developments in the alpha, she will have a somewhat sizeable story at launch[/QUOTE]
I hope for the better because BFA was crap.
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[QUOTE=GenericUsername;5017925]It was in the Wonder Man solo book probably about 30 years ago now? Somewhere around there. She sleeps over at his place, he pushes her away after having pursued her a lot. Then punches at her with his fist landing right next to her head because he wanted to warn her that he wasn't good for her.[/QUOTE]
Wow, that certainly explains his erratic behavior in Heroic Age when he attacks the Avengers. I thought aggression was a new concept introduced to him then but clearly not.
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[QUOTE=Albert1981;5018311]They've made Thor into a clown into the comic books? This is news to me! What I meant to say is that movies like Thor: Ragnarok and Captain America: The Winter Soldier made those respective heroes more popular than ever after initially receiving lukewarm receptions. I think Vision and Wanda are in a bit of a better position right now, but I want them to become more likeable than they are even currently. This show will probably do that. I actually don't mind Wanda being a little less serious than I remember in the comic books. I thought She-Hulk, Captain Marvel and the Wasp were more charismatic than her at times. I didn't read the Tom King series, but I heard that they became good friends again after some time of estrangement. I always say her interactions with Vision bring out the best in her like no other character. But I understand why they can't get back together in the comics. They've hurt each other too much.[/QUOTE]
Captain America: The Winter Soldier was a different film genre than the first one (a spy thriller instead of period war drama) but the character himself didn't change. Thor: Ragnarok was not only essentially a comedy instead of a Shakespearean drama like the first two films, but the character himself was retooled to exercise Chris Hemsworth's comic abilities. Before Ragnarok, people were writing off Thor as a character and calling him a dud until suddenly he became known for only cracking jokes. And the comic version has been altered to fit this new humorous version even though the classic incarnation of the character wasn't anything like that and we've had him since the 1960s. So I'm worried that if Wanda gets too humorous in the MCU to appeal to viewers, the comic version will change as well. The same thing happened with the Guardians of the Galaxy and particularly Star-Lord and fans of those characters before the MCU film still complain about how different they are in the comics now.
She-Hulk has always been a humorous character, or ever since John Byrne got his hands on her and made her into a popular character. Janet has always relied on her humor since she was created. Carol I wouldn't say is known for being a comical character. She has her own one-liners every so often, but she's also very serious from her discipline in military life.
I was hoping the Tom King series would end with Wanda and Vision together again but clearly not. They do have some sweet moments together though and still clearly care about each other.
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[QUOTE=whitecrown;5018407]Wow, that certainly explains his erratic behavior in Heroic Age when he attacks the Avengers. I thought aggression was a new concept introduced to him then but clearly not.[/QUOTE]
It doesn't really. Bendis (being the hack that he is) never explain why Simon went nuts and wanted to destroy the Avengers. The Beast had a theory but it was never confirmed and Bendid quickly undid it by the end of his run with again no explaination.
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[QUOTE=GenericUsername;5018249]It's not dismissive at all. I get you like it, but that doesn't mean there was a lot there. There was barely anything there. Your preference for it doesn't make it more. [/quote]
There was plenty there, and this erases how terrible she's been treated by the X-men after that. As if they haven't been trying to destroy her life every chance they can get.
[quote]And I didn't say she didn't try to fix M-day. I said their chance to have her on that side primarily could have happened after M-day as in part of her making up for things done, and they didn't do it. [/quote]
You said Wanda hasn't done anything to support "the mutant cause," whatever the means, after M-Day and insinuate that just because she did;t do everything you liked in that time period the window of her ever doing anything to fix it was closed off permanently. Please, explain in detail exactly what the "sides" are.
[quote]You gotta read my posts more carefully if you are gonna try to take offense all the time.[/quote]
I have been and no, I haven't been attacking you in every conversation we've had. I think you aren't as friendly to the Avengers fandom as you project here.
[quote]I'm talking about putting her on that side for most of her appearances. Which isn't gonna happen. Unless in 20 years they make her an X-character. Which would not be my preference. Because I like her being an Avenger. You can dream of her being on that side and Mags kid if you want. It just hasn't served her well. If she stays primarily an Avenger and a mutant, then you have the same as it was before. Mentioned at times, but nothing more than a fact about her. [/quote]
We're talking about stories, not simply where the stories will be. 20 years is a long time in comics, anything can happen. My stance is that Marvel should do a better job of making stories which do milk that relationship to its full potential. It's not like shifting Wanda back to being a mutant and into the X-titles will do this, Lorna's been there longer than she has and is in the same position.
[quote]If you really think they had her serve the mutant cause while being an Avenger, I don't know what to do to help you with that kind of headcanon. Because they had only a couple instances where she was discriminated against, and only brought up her being mutant when she used her powers. Yes, you have to actually serve the cause for it to count. It being brought up in special moments is not enough.[/QUOTE]
Can you define what the "mutant cause" means, please.
You make it like all she got was someone cursing at her every so often, she had her life ruined multiple times by being a recognised mutant. She had her houses burnt down, nearly lynched and chased out of town. After M-Day she tried to sacrifice herself to the X-men in penance, has shown remorse for her actions, and tried to save the world via mutants in Ragnarok Now.
Magneto: global terrorist, killer of untold mutants and humans - serves the mutant cause.
Wanda Maximoff: veteran super-hero, had her life ruined for being a mutant at various times, tried multiple times to fix what she did after M-Day - not worthy of serving the cause.
What do you think of the various mutants who have served as Avengers? How do they compare with Wanda?
[QUOTE=Ferro;5018327]we have our difrences but I reaaaaly love responses like these because they are written perfectly, like if I was an english teacher teacher the only red marker on this would be an A +[/QUOTE]
Why are you posting here? You hate Wanda and have been trolling any thread with her in it.
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[QUOTE=GenericUsername;5018334]Well I also really like Tyrande Whisperwind so there's that too, haha.[/QUOTE]
I like how fellow Wanda fans find other shared hobbies/interests in this thread, I don't reply to Steel Inquisitor much but HEY a fellow Brandon Anderson/Mistborn fan.
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[QUOTE=GenericUsername;5018286]I really want them to explore the relationship with Brother Voodoo. But at this point I'm really doubting it.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, everything about that relationship is so far off-panel and moving really fast.
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[QUOTE=Steel Inquisitor;5018427]There was plenty there, and this erases how terrible she's been treated by the X-men after that. As if they haven't been trying to destroy her life every chance they can get.[/quote]
Show me the plenty, because Marvel was content to only mention it at times. And not really have her dealing with the issues as much as other mutants. It was brought up very rarely. In her early years it was used only to explain her powers. Nothing more.
[QUOTE=Steel Inquisitor;5018427]You said Wanda hasn't done anything to support "the mutant cause," whatever the means, after M-Day and insinuate that just because she did;t do everything you liked in that time period the window of her ever doing anything to fix it was closed off permanently. Please, explain in detail exactly what the "sides" are.[/quote]
I said, 'They'd have to have pulled her away from that years ago and had her serve the mutant cause for a while before it'd make sense for that to be so important. Marvel obviously didn't do that. And even after M-day didn't have her do that to make up for things done'
Which means they didn't have a lot of that featured with her dealing with discrimination. A couple times is it. Wanda didn't live out her life dealing with things on the level that other mutants had to deal with it. I never said she didn't do everything I would have liked. I am saying Marvel didn't have her do everything she'd have liked. That she stated in Children's Crusade. Wanda didn't get the redemption that she mentioned. She didn't really get redemption done well at all. Pretending that she did isn't gonna make any of it any better. She got screwed over. Stating it is just stating truth. Sorry that you have a problem with that.
[QUOTE=Steel Inquisitor;5018427]I have been and no, I haven't been attacking you in every conversation we've had. I think you aren't as friendly to the Avengers fandom as you project here.[/quote]
You have in several conversations gotten on my case about something you misread. Even going as far as to accuse me of not being as good a fan of Wanda as you are. You now are pretending I don't like the Avengers when I've been a dedicated reader for close to 30 years. Check your gatekeeping.
[QUOTE=Steel Inquisitor;5018427]We're talking about stories, not simply where the stories will be. 20 years is a long time in comics, anything can happen. My stance is that Marvel should do a better job of making stories which do milk that relationship to its full potential. It's not like shifting Wanda back to being a mutant and into the X-titles will do this, Lorna's been there longer than she has and is in the same position.[/quote]
And they never did milk that relationship because Wanda was very separate from all of that. So it's unlikely to happen.
[QUOTE=Steel Inquisitor;5018427]Can you define what the "mutant cause" means, please.[/quote]
It's like someone that dedicates all their life to dealing with discrimination and then someone that does it sometimes. There's an obvious difference. But you have a vested interest in her being a mutant and Mags' kid. So you are trying to pretend there is more there than there was.
[QUOTE=Steel Inquisitor;5018427]You make it like all she got was someone cursing at her every so often, she had her life ruined multiple times by being a recognised mutant. She had her houses burnt down, nearly lynched and chased out of town. After M-Day she tried to sacrifice herself to the X-men in penance, has shown remorse for her actions, and tried to save the world via mutants in Ragnarok Now.[/quote]
Her house being burned down and her being chased by mutant haters are the two situations I was referring to. It's very few situations in her life. Her entire 55 years. And UA was a garbage mishandling of the character and her redemption. It ended up changing her personality completely to make her someone hated so it justified Rogue murdering her. The planet she created didn't do what she had intended. Which was originally go around to help repower mutants, which is what Marvel should have let happen. But they should not have let M-day happen to begin with. So that isn't a great example of her handling mutant issues. Because it was so botched.
[QUOTE=Steel Inquisitor;5018427] Magneto: global terrorist, killer of untold mutants and humans - serves the mutant cause.
Wanda Maximoff: veteran super-hero, had her life ruined for being a mutant at various times, tried multiple times to fix what she did after M-Day - not worthy of serving the cause.
What do you think of the various mutants who have served as Avengers? How do they compare with Wanda?[/quote]
What are the various times? She has not. She's had a couple moments and her powers being mentioned being mutant. She had one other moment of being chased down when a sentinel thought she was Jean. Most of her time was as an Avenger and not really dealing with mutant stories.
And I feel the need to leave the disclaimer before this is the next thing that gets misinterpreted. Wanda doesn't need to be the savior of mutants and having spent lots of time with mutants and mutant issues to be a good character, or even good. It's just not something that happened. Because of being an Avenger, most of her stories revolved around that. It's just a fact about her, and not a negative. There are plenty of characters handling the every day struggle. It doesn't have to be Wanda. And because she couldn't be there, it's good that she's been separated from it.
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[QUOTE=leokearon;5018424]It doesn't really. Bendis (being the hack that he is) never explain why Simon went nuts and wanted to destroy the Avengers. The Beast had a theory but it was never confirmed and Bendid quickly undid it by the end of his run with again no explaination.[/QUOTE]
Lol sounds like typical Bendis.
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[QUOTE=Ferro;5018327]we have our difrences but I reaaaaly love responses like these because they are written perfectly, like if I was an english teacher teacher the only red marker on this would be an A +[/QUOTE]
I'm confused, I thought you hated Wanda. Every post of yours I've seen has been about trashing her or her relationship with Billy.