Wonder Woman 1984 Thoughts SPOILERS

[QUOTE=Steel Inquisitor;5324703]That's been a thing since forever in the DCEU, unlike the MCU where everything is coherent including the big retcons the DCEU just throws things at the wall and hopes it sticks. What's frustrating is that the driers are in on it like Jenkins just shrugging off questions about canon when asked. Just commit and don't be afraid of saying anything directed by Snyder isn't canon anymore, among other developments. Come up with something explaining this in another film, even as a gag, go with it.[/Quote]


So, you like do understand that that is exactly how DC comics has worked for like 8 freaking decades RIGHT?

there's a reason they created earth 2, earth 3, earth S, earth X. Why they have had constant retcons like COIE, Infinite Crisis, Final Crisis, 52, Flashpoint, Rebirth. Hell if I went on to list the retcons done within titles between dcu wide returns the list would be several paragraphs.

The fact is they made a release back in 2014, three years before JL stating that their movies would not limit creative talent to fit a merged universe. It was restated in 2018. Anyone who expected DCEU films to fit with each other completely and not have contradictions or alternate continuity had an unrealistic expectation from the beginning

[QUOTE=beatboks;5333894]So, you like do understand that that is exactly how DC comics has worked for like 8 freaking decades RIGHT?[/quote]

Why is this even a question? Do you assume anyone you disagrees with don't know how comics work, despite the fact we're not discussing comics? It's not like multiverses don't have their own continuity on their Earths.

[quote]there's a reason they created earth 2, earth 3, earth S, earth X. Why they have had constant retcons like COIE, Infinite Crisis, Final Crisis, 52, Flashpoint, Rebirth. Hell if I went on to list the retcons done within titles between dcu wide returns the list would be several paragraphs.[/quote]

This isn't about why they are created, this is about what happens in one continuity on the main Earth. The DCEU's had retcons on it's Earth 1 almost from the beginning. '84 was the biggest retcon with Snyder's movies then prior movies.

This is how Walter Hamada explains it:

[video=youtube;WqTyJc9IQFo]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WqTyJc9IQFo[/video]

This is about Earth 1 and right now the prior canon of MOS status quo before Clark arrived is completely wrong from '84's third act. Because Snyder didn't stop to consider other directions might do things like Jenkins did, it's why his movies are the first ones to get continuity thrown out.

[quote]The fact is they made a release back in 2014, three years before JL stating that their movies would not limit creative talent to fit a merged universe. It was restated in 2018. Anyone who expected DCEU films to fit with each other completely and not have contradictions or alternate continuity had an unrealistic expectation from the beginning[/QUOTE]

Which is why directors are constantly playing catch up and continuity gets so confusing to the audiences and it's going to get more confusing since they're allowing the multiverse in. It's telling that they see cohesive continuity as a crutch rather than guideline that allows room for other directors to go in their own directions without upsetting the apple cart. This is why Marvel has an advantage over the DCEU, it's a coherent story despite its retcons. The DCEU has been retconning the Snyder movies into being unrecognisable to its own canon by now, because they're too cowardly to cut the cord but want to please the Snyder fan base anyway. Just quiet sweep those two movies under the rug and hope nobody will notice. Of course they'll have contradictions the problem is that those contradictions aren't tiny things they completely upend the established movies events and that's before getting into Flashpoint. It breaks under the slightest scrutiny and it keeps getting thinner and thinner with every movie like '84. This is about execution, not intent. The MCU are sharp with details, the DCEU is lazy with its continuity because its directors still act like they're in their own universe and given that is how they're still doing that it defeats the purpose of having a shared universe.

I have mixed feelings on the subject of continuity. It's nice to have sufficient threads that tie things together that it can be culminated with something like Endgame. But no movie should feel it has to adhere to 100% of every detail that came before. It's overly- restrictive on creativity, leads to lower- quality films, and diminishes the experience in general.

I have a bigger issue when movies don't respect their own internal consistency. Superman Returns is a huge culprit. Kryptonite doesn't make him sick, just takes away his powers. Until later in the same movie when it makes him sick and doesn't take away his powers.

WW films, while not quite rising to inconsistency, do have a habit of introducing abilities at random, as she needs them, rather than building up any rational reasons for her to do things she could not do before, and I found that to be kind of a cheap way to handle the third acts.

[QUOTE=Steel Inquisitor;5333563]She should have been stronger in her fight with Doomsday with how she fought Ares, and flying is what gave Superman a big assist while Wonder Woman's not doing that. Diana's not that stupid to let mobility like that go to waste, she's a trained warrior with decades of experience. Compare how she and Superman fight Doomsday, he exploits that ability to his advantage.[/QUOTE]

I mean I don't think WW ever uses her flying abilities beyond what we see in this film, in comics and in other media. It's actually one of the reasons why I don't like WW flying to begin with. This isn't an inconsistency, like, I don't think she really flies at all during the Cheetah fight.

[QUOTE]In Snyders movies [B]magic isn't real[/B], the only weird things that happen were to do with Kryptonians by MOS. The only god-like being worshipped in Snyder's movies is Superman himself. The only superhumans in his movies are Superman, the Kryptonians, Wonder Woman, Batman and Doomsday. Batman and Diana at that stage are burn legends and the only thing Wonder Woman's known for is a photo that lex has, nobody knows who she is. [/QUOTE]

Uh...what? I don't think that has ever been posited and magic has been a thing in movies prior. Magic was in Suicide Squad...what? If you're saying that the general population doesn't know magic is real, okay, but I'm sure the general population doesn't necessarily know it was magic. Also, the vast majority of people believe in supernatural things already in this world we live in, so I'm sure they do in the DCEU.

[QUOTE]In MOS it's not just about Superman, he's not only entity who can trash cities - it's Zod and the Black Zero - who nearly destroy humanity. Her dined't jsyt do "crazy things," he saved the world with the military in front of everyone. That's a game changer, B vs S explores this with the media, it's why he's seen as a god by people. But the woman who saved the world from World war 3 by communciting with everyone is not mentioned? That makes Superman far less of an unknown, he came years after she did that. Wonder Woman doesn't need an interview, she personally talked to everyone on Earth and saved the world by making people revoke wishes (congrats, magic's real in the 80's!) and stopping by then the biggest threat to humanity since Hitler himself. She stopped World War 3, and everyone would know her by that. They don't that she's Wonder Woman but they know a woman did that by supernatural means. The things which happened in '84 weren't small scale, everyone was directly impacted by that. More then they were with Superman in both his movies. Superman was been from a distance, she personally spoke to these people in their minds with singular speech. That changes human history.[/QUOTE]

Wonder Woman has already changed human history in the movie prior and is implied to have done so multiple other times in this one as well. Why would knowing magic exists change anything? I'm sure governments already know it does. Like, is the only way this fits into a timeline is if someone some despondent civilian in MOS said, "This is like that one crazy week in 1984!"

What exactly is the claim you are trying to make here?
1) That Jenkin's quietly slipped Wonder Woman intentionally out of the DCEU?
2) Or that movies the movies inconsistencies make it so its not part of the DCEU?

Like, I haven't seen Captain Marvel, but I'm sure Brie Larson was seen in public doing heroic things and I don't anyone in Avengers I said, "This is like that one crazy week in 1994!"

[QUOTE=Steel Inquisitor;5333920]Why is this even a question? Do you assume anyone you disagrees with don't know how comics work, despite the fact we're not discussing comics? It's not like multiverses don't have their own continuity on their Earths.



This isn't about why they are created, this is about what happens in one continuity on the main Earth. The DCEU's had retcons on it's Earth 1 almost from the beginning. '84 was the biggest retcon with Snyder's movies then prior movies.

This is how Walter Hamada explains it:

[video=youtube;WqTyJc9IQFo]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WqTyJc9IQFo[/video]

This is about Earth 1 and right now the prior canon of MOS status quo before Clark arrived is completely wrong from '84's third act. Because Snyder didn't stop to consider other directions might do things like Jenkins did, it's why his movies are the first ones to get continuity thrown out.



Which is why directors are constantly playing catch up and continuity gets so confusing to the audiences and it's going to get more confusing since they're allowing the multiverse in. It's telling that they see cohesive continuity as a crutch rather than guideline that allows room for other directors to go in their own directions without upsetting the apple cart. This is why Marvel has an advantage over the DCEU, it's a coherent story despite its retcons. The DCEU has been retconning the Snyder movies into being unrecognisable to its own canon by now, because they're too cowardly to cut the cord but want to please the Snyder fan base anyway. Just quiet sweep those two movies under the rug and hope nobody will notice. Of course they'll have contradictions the problem is that those contradictions aren't tiny things they completely upend the established movies events and that's before getting into Flashpoint. It breaks under the slightest scrutiny and it keeps getting thinner and thinner with every movie like '84. This is about execution, not intent. The MCU are sharp with details, the DCEU is lazy with its continuity because its directors still act like they're in their own universe and given that is how they're still doing that it defeats the purpose of having a shared universe.[/QUOTE]

I think you completely missed my point from the outset there was never going to be any continuity flowing through the DCEU movies it was stated before Justice League was made.

Additionally the retcons I'm talking about in comics have been to fix the multiple continually flaws that existed prior to the retcon. DC has always allowed different writers to write a character however they see fit that doesn't fit with what comes before then someone comes along and tries to clean it up.

The entire run for example of All Star squadron was Roy Thomas correcting the multiple contradictory errors that were about the various characters he wrote in that title. All these characters had multiple writers and had contradictions to previous stories to other stories written by other writers. Thomas came up with stories that explained the lack of cohesion. There are literally thousands of examples of characters that you can read in one book that are completely different to the same character in another a month or two later. Superman for example is completely different in 1942 to 1938 and constantly changed after that. Batman is another character that had multiple changes throughout the Golden Age.

Even forgetting the actual retconns DC comics simply have never had a cohesive continually with in the comics it's not the way they hold their writers down its the reason they've had the problems they have had.

From the moment they 1st spoke about making DC movies like Justice League etc, I never expected that those movies would have a clean tied ďown continuityconsisting continually it simply isn't how DC Comics (WB) operates. If this is what people expected, then they had a flase expectancy and were never going to have that fulfilled

[QUOTE=Pinsir;5334426]I mean I don't think WW ever uses her flying abilities beyond what we see in this film, in comics and in other media. It's actually one of the reasons why I don't like WW flying to begin with. This isn't an inconsistency, like, I don't think she really flies at all during the Cheetah fight. [/quote]

What? She's been doing that in comics and other media since at least the 90's. She's not trying to kill Cheetah, she was with Doomsday. She's not the Hulk.



[quote]Uh...what? I don't think that has ever been posited and magic has been a thing in movies prior. Magic was in Suicide Squad...what? If you're saying that the general population doesn't know magic is real, okay, but I'm sure the general population doesn't necessarily know it was magic. Also, the vast majority of people believe in supernatural things already in this world we live in, so I'm sure they do in the DCEU.[/quote]

Snyder's movies don't mention anything related to magic, it's pure science fiction and a "realistic" modern world. This ins't just about magic being mentioned, '84 made everyone personally involved with magic which saved the world from World War 3. That's not something people just forget. That's like saying everyone forgot about Zod's crew after MOS. Suicide Squad is a movie which heavily retcons things from Snyder's movies, now there's super-humans everywhere. Billions of people would view that as magic even if it wasn't explicit, it's about making wishes. This ins't just about governments, did you watch the third act? She personally communicates with billions of people on Earth and convinces them to remind their wishes, after Max Lord grants them wishes on tv and computer screens. Not like that we don't. Believe in magic among skeptics would skyrocket after an incident like that. The news would be all over interviewing people who made wishes.


[quote]Wonder Woman has already changed human history in the movie prior and is implied to have done so multiple other times in this one as well. Why would knowing magic exists change anything? I'm sure governments already know it does. Like, is the only way this fits into a timeline is if someone some despondent civilian in MOS said, "This is like that one crazy week in 1984!"[/quote]

Wonder Woman wasn't in view of everyone in the world in the first movie, the only evidence left is a photo. Soldiers saw her, yes, but her showdowns were hardly as explicit with the general public like with '84. She may be an urban legend among the militaries but she's not public knowledge and the only soldiers who do know her personally are her squad. Nobody knows she changed human history with that movie, they do with '84. Which was my point, it doesn't fit the time line for Snyder's movies.

[quote]What exactly is the claim you are trying to make here?
1) That Jenkin's quietly slipped Wonder Woman intentionally out of the DCEU?
2) Or that movies the movies inconsistencies make it so its not part of the DCEU? [/quote]

Jenkins movies are in the DCEU, they're just movies who like others retcon Snyder's out by the events shown in them. They override Snyder's canon in MOS and B v S. Jenkins has never been that loyal to adhering to Snyder's continuity in her films. The first thing she did was get rid of that sword. The DCEU continues, but retcons are vastly more of game changer by what happened in canon then in the MCU. The directors do not care that much about adhering to canon like the MCU does, they make new canon in their films just like canon works in the comics. Jenkins movies are on Earth 1, with Aquaman, Shazam, Birds of prey and Black Adam.

[quote]Like, I haven't seen Captain Marvel, but I'm sure Brie Larson was seen in public doing heroic things and I don't anyone in Avengers I said, "This is like that one crazy week in 1994!"[/QUOTE]

Nope. She's hidden from the public. They only learn about her in Endgame where she fights in public.

People trying to make logical sense of the continuity of the DCEU should probably save the brain cells and stop. None of it has ever made any sense and this film has been one of the worst offender of that

[QUOTE=Havok83;5335232]People trying to make logical sense of the continuity of the DCEU should probably save the brain cells and stop. None of it has ever made any sense and this film has been one of the worst offender of not[/QUOTE]
I think your post was published before you got the chance to finish it.

And now for the fun part; deciding which comic film series has a more disjointed continuity between DCEU and FoX-Men stuff.

[QUOTE=Speed Force League Unlimited;5335250]I think your post was published before you got the chance to finish it.

And now for the fun part; deciding which comic film series has a more disjointed continuity between DCEU and FoX-Men stuff.[/QUOTE]

Don't do that because if you open that Pandora's Box this is your endgame.

[url]https://www.bing.com/images/search?view=detailV2&ccid=bY9p2PSe&id=0DA0EFDA51DB16AA67ECD07C9CAE3381FCC89C32&thid=OIP.bY9p2PSewchiekNCy7HZewHaEs&mediaurl=https%3A%2F%2Fmedia0.giphy.com%2Fmedia%2Fl0IykOsxLECVejOzm%2Fgiphy.gif&exph=304&expw=480&q=charlie+iasip+gif&simid=608044928744491918&ck=425A4B4D18FB963F91985A7A8646FB88&selectedindex=10&form=EX0023&adlt=demote&shtp=GetUrl&shid=c3ef2962-f08b-4b90-a626-1417bae772af&shtk=QWx3YXlzIFN1bm55IEluIFBoaWxhZGVscGhpYSBHSUZzIC0gRmluZCAmIFNoYXJlIG9uIEdJUEhZ&shdk=Rm91bmQgb24gQmluZyBmcm9tIGdpcGh5LmNvbQ%3D%3D&shhk=TwNDKuygPq1QicZ2%2BpDK0I%2F8IC6okgYgWsRJBAolR9Y%3D&shth=OSH.FXt1oY2MkHlP%252F7PqzVPHLg[/url]

[quote]I mean I don't think WW ever uses her flying abilities beyond what we see in this film, in comics and in other media. It's actually one of the reasons why I don't like WW flying to begin with. This isn't an inconsistency, like, I don't think she really flies at all during the Cheetah fight. [/quote]

At least right now I thought the movie made it a point to show she's gliding like classic WW, her power hasn't evolved to regular flight yet. This means she can glide from rooftop to rooftop but she can't like levitate herself in fight, especially in bad wind conditions like the movie.

[QUOTE=titanfan;5336371]At least right now I thought the movie made it a point to show she's gliding like classic WW, her power hasn't evolved to regular flight yet. This means she can glide from rooftop to rooftop but she can't like levitate herself in fight, especially in bad wind conditions like the movie.[/QUOTE]

Even gliding would be ana ability she didn't have in B vs S. She just had Hulk leaps.

DCEU continuity is such a headache.

[video=youtube;dIcqrIKxeAk]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dIcqrIKxeAk[/video]

According to Jenkins the theatrical Justice League is not canon, and she says she doesn't recognise speech characters yet doesn't say this applied to Diana herself and that it was difficult to work with and its debatable she even saw the movie itself. It's really surprising since Diana in the movie fits her movies more than Snyder's did. She must really like Snyder, which is fine, but it comes off more of a dispute between colleagues rather than actual continuity Joss is just bad because? Continuity being this flexible also brings the question - why even have an Earth 1 DCEU? It's not like the directors care about continuity that much so why bother stringing fans along? I didn't like it when the MCU did it with their tv shows like SHIELD and I don't like the sounds of this going on with the DCEU. Is the DCEU management and directors incapable of learning from how Marvel does continuity? Because they're still not learning how to do this properly despite Marvel giving them a map with instructions. Continuity is a neutral term, how it's written determines if it's an anchor or an advantage just cut the cord if they're doing the former. And don't let professional relationships dictate continuity.

[QUOTE=Steel Inquisitor;5340380]DCEU continuity is such a headache.

[video=youtube;dIcqrIKxeAk]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dIcqrIKxeAk[/video]

According to Jenkins the theatrical Justice League is not canon, and she says she doesn't recognise speech characters yet doesn't say this applied to Diana herself and that it was difficult to work with and its debatable she even saw the movie itself. It's really surprising since Diana in the movie fits her movies more than Snyder's did. She must really like Snyder, which is fine, but it comes off more of a dispute between colleagues rather than actual continuity Joss is just bad because? Continuity being this flexible also brings the question - why even have an Earth 1 DCEU? It's not like the directors care about continuity that much so why bother stringing fans along? I didn't like it when the MCU did it with their tv shows like SHIELD and I don't like the sounds of this going on with the DCEU. Is the DCEU management and directors incapable of learning from how Marvel does continuity? Because they're still not learning how to do this properly despite Marvel giving them a map with instructions. Continuity is a neutral term, how it's written determines if it's an anchor or an advantage just cut the cord if they're doing the former. And don't let professional relationships dictate continuity.[/QUOTE]

The truth is WB cares about continuity so they can compete with Marvel but the directors don't, its a contradictory relationship. WB just needs to stop the whole continuity bullcrap and let the directors make the best movie they can make. If people want a full blown universe let them watch Marvel. Marvel doesn't have to do what DC does and vice versa as long as they make enjoyable content.

[QUOTE=ComicJunkie21;5341165]The truth is WB cares about continuity so they can compete with Marvel but the directors don't, its a contradictory relationship. [/QUOTE]

If that's true it seems like that's on Hamada or Snyder or whoever the hell is in charge of DC movies. It's not like WB doesn't have the authority to tell directors how to spend their money.

[QUOTE=green_garnish;5341405]If that's true it seems like that's on Hamada or Snyder or whoever the hell is in charge of DC movies. It's not like WB doesn't have the authority to tell directors how to spend their money.[/QUOTE]

Its on WB. On one hand they say they want a continuous
universe and on the other they say they want to give directors freedom to make good films. Those don't necessarily go together well at least not for a big universe. MCU works better with continuity because they are naturally setup better for it and they don't let directors have alot of freedom. To have a big continuous universe you have to make sure your vision doesn't stray too far from the over arching course and that will probably mean limiting directorial freedom unless the same director is the one doing all the films.

If WB wants continuity and a universe they can do it well by focusing on smaller universes. Something like focusing on a batman universe or exploring the story of the Amazons (which they are doing). This allows for a better balance allowing for directorial freedom and continuity imo. Personally I think smaller universes will probably be better for most franchises. While what Marvel did was a huge accomplishment its very hard to do that and even their attempt wasn't perfect because there's way too many moving parts.