Yeah, Montoya was created for BTAS. However, due to lead time for animation, she first appeared in the comics.
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Yeah, Montoya was created for BTAS. However, due to lead time for animation, she first appeared in the comics.
I think DC has done very well. Why don't they have a Minority leading the charge? people don't buy the comic, that's why. First off, it's a business, if something doesn't sell, it gets axed. Sure, sometimes writers don't know how to write a character, and that can hurt the toon, but when it comes down to it, it's about money. You can only lose so much money before you pull the plug.
[QUOTE=krazijoe;3449390]I think DC has done very well. Why don't they have a Minority leading the charge? people don't buy the comic, that's why. First off, it's a business, if something doesn't sell, it gets axed. Sure, sometimes writers don't know how to write a character, and that can hurt the toon, but when it comes down to it, it's about money. You can only lose so much money before you pull the plug.[/QUOTE]
Yes. But we're trying to go beyond that and ask why enough people haven't bought and how we/DC can change that.
[QUOTE=Daniel22;3435912]This is just my personal experience, and I have no stats to back me up, so take it for what it's worth (which is not much)... But from what I've seen, the audience is older, more conservative (not politically conservative, but personality-wise) and resistant to change than Marvel's. When Marvel was bringing out Cho-Hulk and Jane Foster Thor and Riri Williams and so on, I got the impression from most DC fans that DC would never do something like that, and they were glad of that. DC has always felt slow and behind the times, like the comics your dad would read if he read comics. There's a little chicken and egg going on here too, as in do minority books not sell well typically at DC because they don't put many out, or do they not put many out because they don't sell well?[/QUOTE]
Finally someone hit the right nail. The audience determines what sells and what doesn't, so if the minority books in DC doesn't sell as well in DC, that points to the audience at DC not supporting the books. It's pretty much that simple really.
The fact that most of DC minority heroes sell as low as the lowest minority books at Marvel pretty much magnifies this.
With that said, DC did try a move like that before, but it was with lower tier characters and there wasn't any marketing done behind these characters. (That being Blue Beetle, Firestorm, etc) Marvel on the other hand pretty much replace their star characters with minority heroes, and that's how they were able to obtain the successful minority properties that they have.
So the biggest issue of course lies with the audience, which pretty much won't support books. They may give "lip service." But that lip service is just meant for them to either be in their classic form or background characters as the original white characters continue to dominate the spotlight.
[QUOTE=Daniel22;3449408]Yes. But we're trying to go beyond that and ask why enough people haven't bought and how we/DC can change that.[/QUOTE]
Funny that comment NEVER seems to troll all these low selling books with white guys.
They fail and it's "yall loser don't know what quality is" or "the writer stinks."
Never when Antman fail-that should tell Marvel to stop giving books to guys like him. It's hope to see another shot with those type of guys.
Amway belittlement for POC lead book.
[QUOTE]Finally someone hit the right nail. The audience determines what sells and what doesn't, so if the minority books in DC doesn't sell as well in DC, that points to the audience at DC not supporting the books. It's pretty much that simple really.[/QUOTE]
No it's not that simple in the world of double standards.
That minority book is generally unwelcome the moment it is announced be it fans and ESPECIALLY store owners. A lot of times the audience is not given a choice.
We can't discuss content until access is dealt with.
[QUOTE]So the biggest issue of course lies with the audience, which pretty much won't support books.[/QUOTE]
A lot of the audience has ZERO interest in going to comic book stores. Especially when they hear the horror stories POC & women tell them about some stores.
So they get trades. If the comic book store is now a pit for POC & women-maybe it's time to take those POC book OUT of the store. For good.
Nothing is stopping DC from doing what Harlequin books do with POC lead books. Target & Wal-Mart got space.
Create a new line-put out books every 4-6 months x number of pages for $7-$10. The stories are still canon and everyone interacts with the comics but now the road block of racism or sexism is gone.
Limit a store to 4 copies of a title and after a year get the unsold copies back and sell them to use book stores like everyone else.
So the entitlement fans can get their minority free isles in stores-until REALITY hits as sales get worst.
[QUOTE=Daniel22;3435912]This is just my personal experience, and I have no stats to back me up, so take it for what it's worth (which is not much)... But from what I've seen, the audience is older, more conservative (not politically conservative, but personality-wise) and resistant to change than Marvel's. When Marvel was bringing out Cho-Hulk and Jane Foster Thor and Riri Williams and so on, I got the impression from most DC fans that DC would never do something like that, and they were glad of that. DC has always felt slow and behind the times, like the comics your dad would read if he read comics. There's a little chicken and egg going on here too, as in do minority books not sell well typically at DC because they don't put many out, or do they not put many out because they don't sell well?[/QUOTE]
I’ve noticed the same regarding conservatism.
When I read the interview Didio did about not wanting to replace iconic characters, I thought it was ironic, since DC was the original home of legacy characters. Until they started putting everything back like they used to be. These new heroes are definitely going to fail, and the Puerto Rican one isn’t even visually interesting.
[QUOTE=leo619;3449544]Finally someone hit the right nail. The audience determines what sells and what doesn't, so if the minority books in DC doesn't sell as well in DC, that points to the audience at DC not supporting the books. It's pretty much that simple really.
The fact that most of DC minority heroes sell as low as the lowest minority books at Marvel pretty much magnifies this.
With that said, DC did try a move like that before, but it was with lower tier characters and there wasn't any marketing done behind these characters. (That being Blue Beetle, Firestorm, etc) Marvel on the other hand pretty much replace their star characters with minority heroes, and that's how they were able to obtain the successful minority properties that they have.
So the biggest issue of course lies with the audience, which pretty much won't support books. They may give "lip service." But that lip service is just meant for them to either be in their classic form or background characters as the original white characters continue to dominate the spotlight.[/QUOTE]
DC doesn't go "all in" enough. Killing Bruce Banner, Wolverine and Tony Stark, making Jane Foster the unquestioned star of Thor, etc... Letting other people take their spot (not be a sidekick or additional person with the name) is the kind of thing that can be done and work to advance a character. Marvel doesn't always do that (there's a Spider-Man, Wasp, Falcon, Ghost Rider, etc minority character who still have the original around), but at least they do it sometimes.
DC should take the "if you can't be better, be different" approach more often with how they handle minority heroes. By that I mean characters like Duke, Jessica Cruz, Cass Cain and Simon Baz are just thrown into a white character's supporting cast. There are so many Bat-Associates and Green Lanterns that they get lost in the shuffle. DC won't let them be better than Batman or Hal Jordan, so at least let them be different. Take them away from the established heroes and don't make them so dependent on them for character advancement and stories.
Kong Kenan is a good example of being different. DC would never let Kong be the "main" Superman, so they at least let him be different. They gave him an identity and world very separate from Superman.
[QUOTE=kurenai24;3447996]I want to know what makes Cyborg good repsentation for the physically disabled when he's physically more machine than human. [/QUOTE]
It's no different than Daredevil or Hawkeye. Both are infinitely more capable than a real person despite being disabled. Granted, Hawkeye's hearing is just kinda crappy, not completely gone, but he still counts apparently.
People in the real world might not have artificial limbs that shoot lasers, but that doesn't mean Vic can't be an inspiration to them. And as someone else has said, a lot of people responded to Fisher's Cyborg.
Regarding Aztek, I am very happy the character is back. That was one of my favorite titles during its short time. But I believe the original version wasn't actually white. I believe he was of mixed race. Not at all unlike Conner Hawke with the blonde hair and darker/tanned skin. I could be remembering that wrong though.
And cultural appropriation....The visual wasn't actually inspired by Aztecs but rather (if I recall correctly) the Inca and the character was raised by (and born into) an organization that still held to their cultural traditions (or did so far as the character was aware, that whole Lex Luthor thing) so I'm not sure who is stealing what.
So DC had this amazing design for Cyborg and the fact that Vic was actually enjoying his powers for once and said “naw. Put him back in generic armor and make him sad.”
[img]https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/5/58/Cyborg_%28Victor_Stone%29.jpg/250px-Cyborg_%28Victor_Stone%29.jpg[/img]
I think this situation in particular is a good answer to the thread question.
So this [URL="https://www.newsarama.com/38626-dc-co-pub-dan-didio-on-new-age-diversity-sideways-grant-morrison-s-role.html"]interview[/URL] with Dan Didio about Sideways and when he talks about the initiative of New Age of DC Heroes and/or why it was created ... it once again points to the idiocy going on in the DC company.
Like I have no problems with these books, what I have is a problem for why they were created; you're telling me DC would rather spend money on creating new characters and creating a fan base for these characters to stick around then spending money on the already diverse characters they do have and building up on them and the fan base that supports those characters.
It doesn't make sense, people like to bring up the fact that DC is a business and yet their decisions are not business savvy what so ever.
[QUOTE=Agent Z;3448937]
Weird, I think I remember sure fans made more of a deal of Cyborg’s race than DC did. I should also point out that them not talking about his race much does not mean it isn’t important for black people. After all, Blade wasn’t marketed on his race.[/QUOTE]
Yeah fans did make a big deal out of Cyborg's race ...and so did the company and media outlets which is what I said like 3 or 4 times already.
Never said that DC not talking about Cyborg'a race somehow means it isn't important to black people either.
What I keep saying is that DC uses one aspect of Cyborg that benefits them at the time and ignores the other and right now the focus is the disability aspect which makes it feel disingenuous.
[QUOTE=Ascended;3450153]It's no different than Daredevil or Hawkeye. Both are infinitely more capable than a real person despite being disabled. Granted, Hawkeye's hearing is just kinda crappy, not completely gone, but he still counts apparently.
People in the real world might not have artificial limbs that shoot lasers, but that doesn't mean Vic can't be an inspiration to them. And as someone else has said, a lot of people responded to Fisher's Cyborg.
[/QUOTE]
The only thing I can say to this is that Daredevil and Hawkeye are great repsenation for the blind and hearing impaired and it helps that they look human.
In regards to Cyborg, I wish he looked human b/c no person with prosthetics looks less than human, in comparison to Daredevil and Hawkeye, Cyborg lacks the basic humanity to look like the people he is suppose to represent but thank you for your feedback.
[QUOTE=kurenai24;3450281]So this [URL="https://www.newsarama.com/38626-dc-co-pub-dan-didio-on-new-age-diversity-sideways-grant-morrison-s-role.html"]interview[/URL] with Dan Didio about Sideways and when he talks about the initiative of New Age of DC Heroes and/or why it was created ... it once again points to the idiocy going on in the DC company.
Like I have no problems with these books, what I have is a problem for why they were created; you're telling me DC would rather spend money on creating new characters and creating a fan base for these characters to stick around then spending money on the already diverse characters they do have and building up on them and the fan base that supports those characters.
It doesn't make sense, people like to bring up the fact that DC is a business and yet their decisions are not business savvy what so ever.
Yeah fans did make a big deal out of Cyborg's race ...and so did the company and media outlets which is what I said like 3 or 4 times already.
Never said that DC not talking about Cyborg'a race somehow means it isn't important to black people either.
What I keep saying is that DC uses one aspect of Cyborg that benefits them at the time and ignores the other and right now the focus is the disability aspect which makes it feel disingenuous.
The only thing I can say to this is that Daredevil and Hawkeye are great repsenation for the blind and hearing impaired and it helps that they look human.
In regards to Cyborg, I wish he looked human b/c no person with prosthetics looks less than human, in comparison to Daredevil and Hawkeye, Cyborg lacks the basic humanity to look like the people he is suppose to represent but thank you for your feedback.[/QUOTE]
So he is not human enough to be a minority?
[QUOTE=kurenai24;3450281]
Never said that DC not talking about Cyborg'a race somehow means it isn't important to black people either.
What I keep saying is that DC uses one aspect of Cyborg that benefits them at the time and ignores the other and right now the focus is the disability aspect which makes it feel disingenuous.
The only thing I can say to this is that Daredevil and Hawkeye are great repsenation for the blind and hearing impaired and it helps that they look human.
In regards to Cyborg, I wish he looked human b/c no person with prosthetics looks less than human, in comparison to Daredevil and Hawkeye, Cyborg lacks the basic humanity to look like the people he is suppose to represent but thank you for your feedback.[/QUOTE]
The sad thing is that DC comics has no concept of the issues of ableism OR ant-blackness, let alone both of those things together. Intersectionality is a concept they can't even begin to comprehend. Cyborg's "Am I a man or a machine" storyline leans heavily into ablest stereotypes AND Anti-black stereotypes. It's kind of sad really. Oh well, I've come to accept the fact that when it comes to minorities DC Comics is never going to get it right. Too bad.
[QUOTE=krazijoe;3450651]So he is not human enough to be a minority?[/QUOTE]
I should probably respond with something nuance but I'm just gonna say sure b/c that's what it boils down to in the most barbaric of ways.
[QUOTE=krazijoe;3449390]I think DC has done very well. Why don't they have a Minority leading the charge? people don't buy the comic, that's why. First off, it's a business, if something doesn't sell, it gets axed. Sure, sometimes writers don't know how to write a character, and that can hurt the toon, but when it comes down to it, it's about money. You can only lose so much money before you pull the plug.[/QUOTE]
This would be absolutely be correct if all books were created equal but they're not. New characters are kinda doomed a good 90% of the time
DC is too afraid to pull the trigger
Black Lightning
Bronze Tiger
Thunder
Lightning
Static
Icon
All these characters could have been pushed and pushed to the moon or at least not gone into periods of limbo
Instead they just went with the generic one at a time philosophy and that's how you ended up with cyborg's failed Justice League run