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There are great shots in the battle, but the Battle of Helms Deep or the Ride of the Rohirrim that was not.
As for what constitutes art, a young boy who dreamed of adventure slowly realizing that he's dying and begging his mentor 'I don't want to go, I don't want to go' is art. A mortal man who has reinvented himself multiple times and fought alongside and against gods with nothing but that which came from his mind challenging the greatest threat the universe has ever known and laying down his life with the four words that had come to define him is art. The batmobile avoiding a falling tower in completely unnecessary slo-mo is not art.
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[QUOTE=Killerbee911;5471497]More movies are better in this case they are all part of the same puzzle. You are comparing well done 22 issue comic crossover to well done 3 issue mini series. There is nothing that has the emotional weight of Spiderman dying in Justice League, There is nothing in JL that carries the emotional weight of Tony Stark dying in Endgame. That is because of the other movies and our relationship with characters. You can argue Justice League is the better movie maybe in a vacuum it is a better movie but Infinity Wars and Endgame can't be view in a vacuum. They have build up from other movies and little stuff work in the movie because of it. The corny "Avengers Assemble" works because we have waiting a bunch of movies for it, those other movies matter.
Since CBR forums is polling is "biased", lets bring some other numbers[/QUOTE]
You’re a very patient man to even show these numbers. People see whatever they want to see regardless of the raw evidence.
And the points you mentioned are very valid about the emotional weight of the movies, it is what it is.
As to JLSC, I’d personally not even compare it individually to other movies because it’s more of an “assembly cut” than a “directors cut”. It seems to be basically everything Snyder shot in a 4 hr movie which is very rarely ever seen by the public. This version of the movie would never have seen the iight of day in theaters due to its runtime. We’ve not seen the extended cuts of the other films, so to make a direct comparison between them is a bit difficult.
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[QUOTE=Killerbee911;5471513]* my comment is in slow mo for the artistry Zac Snyder's Justice League* Lol[/QUOTE]
I am pretty sure Avengers Endgame had slo mos too but this is what hurts the artistry of that film not slo mos. this video that shows the Russos just followed a formula.
[video=youtube;bgvgi3ShcmY]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bgvgi3ShcmY&ab_channel=Insider[/video]
The Snyder Cut is artistically above this. I think we can all admit that obvious.
The Slo Mos in the final battle actually worked in the Snyder Cut because Snyder added [B]great visual shots[/B]. Anyone can LOL at it but this is a [B]good film making technique that does lie[/B] as many other directors have used that exact same style.. check out Sin City 2005, The Matrix 1999 or The Quicksilver scene from DOFP. The slo mos in the movies are helped by the visual filmmaking case in point cinematography and not cartoon done CGI effects. Snyder did that to perfection.
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[QUOTE=Castle;5471534]I am pretty sure Avengers Endgame had slo mos too but this is what hurts the artistry of that film not slo mos. this video that shows the Russos just followed a formula.
[video=youtube;bgvgi3ShcmY]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bgvgi3ShcmY&ab_channel=Insider[/video]
The Snyder Cut is artistically above this. I think we can all admit that obvious.
The Slo Mos in the final battle actually worked in the Snyder Cut because Snyder added [B]great visual shots[/B]. Anyone can LOL at it but this is a [B]good film making technique that does lie[/B] as many other directors have used that exact same style.. check out Sin City 2005, The Matrix 1999 or The Quicksilver scene from DOFP. The slo mos in the movies are helped by the visual filmmaking case in point cinematography and not cartoon done CGI effects. Snyder did that to perfection.[/QUOTE]
"Followed a formula."
lol, in what way was Justice League any different, pray tell?
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[QUOTE=The Cool Thatguy;5471553]"Followed a formula."
lol, in what way was Justice League any different, pray tell?[/QUOTE]
Because it is not MCU^^.
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[QUOTE=Castle;5471534]I am pretty sure Avengers Endgame had slo mos too but this is what hurts the artistry of that film not slo mos. this video that shows the Russos just followed a formula.
[video=youtube;bgvgi3ShcmY]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bgvgi3ShcmY&ab_channel=Insider[/video]
The Snyder Cut is artistically above this. I think we can all admit that obvious.
The Slo Mos in the final battle actually worked in the Snyder Cut because Snyder added [B]great visual shots[/B]. Anyone can LOL at it but this is a [B]good film making technique that does lie[/B] as many other directors have used that exact same style.. check out Sin City 2005, The Matrix 1999 or The Quicksilver scene from DOFP. The slo mos in the movies are helped by the visual filmmaking case in point cinematography and not cartoon done CGI effects. Snyder did that to perfection.[/QUOTE]
"great visual shots" And the MCU did not have that? Sure.
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even if its just infinity war vs JL its no contest to me - IW definitely is much more entertaining and rewatchable. that said, Zack's JL is imo the best of his 3 DC films and certainly worlds better than the theatrical cut of JL.
just so much more joy in seeing the various beloved mcu characters meet for the first time - Thor and GotG, Strange and Stark, Bucky and Rocket, etc. Kinda sad that DC didn't do the legwork to make us care about their characters before having them all join up but it is what it is, and fortunately i still enjoyed Snyder JL overall.
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Justice League ending was another gray CGI mess with groan inducing plot moments [B]IF[/B] you took it too seriously but some people aren't going to do that like did with other movies because they want to like JL. I am perfectly fine with liking dumb comic book action that is the appeal of the MCU at times, It is just fun watching people switch up their point of view based on who makes a film. I nearly choked when I saw someone say they are looking forward to suicide squad 2 (which has same banter and action comedy style as MCU movie)
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[QUOTE=basbash99;5471562]even if its just infinity war vs JL its no contest to me - IW definitely is much more entertaining and rewatchable. that said, Zack's JL is imo the best of his 3 DC films and certainly worlds better than the theatrical cut of JL.
just so much more joy in seeing the various beloved mcu characters meet for the first time - Thor and GotG, Strange and Stark, Bucky and Rocket, etc. Kinda sad that DC didn't do the legwork to make us care about their characters before having them all join up but it is what it is, and fortunately i still enjoyed Snyder JL overall.[/QUOTE]
Adding to that is that they could have done it first around 2005. But getting cold feet they only started it after seeing Disney making money with former unknowns like the Guardians of the Galaxy.
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[QUOTE=lowfyr;5471567]Adding to that is that they could have done it first around 2005. But getting cold feet they only started it after seeing Disney making money with former unknowns like the Guardians of the Galaxy.[/QUOTE]
DC Executive thinking: "Man, these unknown characters are making Disney a lot of money. Lets grab a bunch of high profile characters, given their roles to well known actors, and it'll be the exact same thing!"
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The part about the way the previs was used for the first-person swinging shots from ASM2, which were generally considered the most innovative and original, shots of the entire movie, was quite interesting.
Any filmmaking technique can be artistic if used well or a detriment if used poorly, from shaky-cam to slo-mo. This way of making cgi versions of scenes before filming is no different in that regard. I do consider it a bit of a detriment that part of the role of the director is given to an outside visual effects artist, but it doesn't necessarily mean what is shot is not art. They're not copying and pasting shots, but working on shots individually to see what works for each specific scene.
Snyder overused slo-mo because he put it in shots where it added absolutely nothing and served no purpose, which made it distracting and added to the bloat of the film. Slo-mo with the Flash makes perfect sense. Slom-mo in the Matrix emphasized the artificiality of the virtual world - and the bad rip-offs which followed show how the technique can be used badly.
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[QUOTE=The Cool Thatguy;5471577]DC Executive thinking: "Man, these unknown characters are making Disney a lot of money. Lets grab a bunch of high profile characters, given their roles to well known actors, and it'll be the exact same thing!"[/QUOTE]
Without the sucess of the Guardians movie we would get one Batman movie after another with a Superman one thrown between them some time. Wonder Woman would have never happened. To say nothing about the even more obscure DC Heroes.
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[QUOTE=Killerbee911;5471566]Justice League ending was another gray CGI mess with groan inducing plot moments [B]IF[/B] you took it too seriously but some people aren't going to do that like did with other movies because they want to like JL. I am perfectly fine with liking dumb comic book action that is the appeal of the MCU at times, It is just fun watching people switch up their point of view based on who makes a film. I nearly choked when I saw someone say they are looking forward to suicide squad 2 (which has same banter and action comedy style as MCU movie)[/QUOTE]
JL ending was not a mess. Now it is my turn to LOL because this is just not true a all. If you are comparing to Endgame. JL is actually very contained and [B]spaced out....very very spaced out [/B]I mean this Endgame , even this shot, you can tell it was going to be a mess.
[video=youtube;FfR-YrFgM4U]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfR-YrFgM4U&ab_channel=SPMovieClips[/video]
I am just going to say the facts of the film from JL movie.
The Snyder Cut had most of the characters in different areas doing different things. Batman was on his own, Cyborg was at a stand still, Flash was on his own and Wonder Woman and Aquaman were the ones taking on Stephenwolf and when Superman comes on, they space out and give him his moment.
That is what saves it from been messy. JL does not drags [B] everyone to one place fighting [/B], this is what makes a comic film action scene always messy.
This is not about liking JL or Endgame more , it is just the events of the film we are talking about. the word messy is not the how the dictionary would define JL.
Also please also don't forget the CGI problem. Snyder CGI has always been less cartoonish right from when he did 300. And I am not even going to debate how CGI in MCU movies have fallen sharply since Iron Man 1 because MCU changed their style when they started to favour CGI to practical effects. Which always messes a movie up, this is the reason a director like James Cameron had to do something new with Avatar to avoid all of that.
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I only glanced through this thread, but the various arguments for why the films are different don't strike me as being an inherent pro or con. JL being a starting point vs an ending point can be good or bad - JL didn't have the benefit of all the momentum of the story and the familiarity of the characters, but it also didn't have the baggage of tying up a 20 movie storyline and saying goodbye to the[I] two[/I] most important characters in the franchise. The "art vs.entertainment" argument doesn't matter because it's all subjective and either film can be great - it's just about how well it was executed. If you like Snyder's vision and that made it a better film for you, great - I thought it was self-indulgent and mostly style over substance, but ymmv... (the Cyborg stuff was the only real characterization that I found effective)
For me, "Avengers" wins by [I]miles[/I], and while some might have fun debating the finer details, I just found it a lot more enjoyable.
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[QUOTE=Castle;5471593]The Snyder Cut had most of the characters in different areas doing different things. Batman was on his own, Cyborg was at a stand still, Flash was on his own and Wonder Woman and Aquaman were the ones taking on Stephenwolf and when Superman comes on, they space out and give him his moment.[/QUOTE]
...no, just no.
Superman, Wonder Woman and Aquaman were pretty much the same character on a different scale in action scenes.
Flash had a cool scene, but Cyborg, super tech God had...just laser hands and extra arms. Super tech! I liked how he had a cannon with an ammo box in the Knightmare scenes. That's high technology!
