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[QUOTE=Gaius;5936463]Well, let's see. Given the title including a specific person, this spilling out from the animation thread, and most of the complaints are stuff they've already posted about in other threads. Hard to see as a thread seriously examining the history of sexism in DC's treatment when it comes to female characters and not just another thread to complain about power levels/jobbing.
Because I guess the animation thread, controversial opinions thread, the power level complaints thread, the Cloonan/Conrad run thread, the Cheetah jobbing thread, and the various other threads Mystical41 made just weren't enough room for this discussion.[/QUOTE]
I talked to a mod and asked to create a thread to include all sexist treatment in one place. Because there is more to come. Not just power level. Since i talked in the OP about more than that. And i am discussing more than that with other people here, see my marston posts. And i am not going to create a thread for every writer that in my opinion had a sexist treatment with WW. Intentionl or subconsciously. So here i will include them all.
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[QUOTE=BiteTheBullet;5936465]If you think this is a typical power thread, which you don't seem to like, why 'feed the troll' by even replying to the thread?
Just ignore and let others vent or say what they want. [B]Otherwise this thread doesn't seem to be catered for you[/B].[/QUOTE]
As opposed to turning the animation, controversial and Cloonrad general threads into ones that cater specifically to those that want to vent when they have other threads to do it in?
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[QUOTE=Primal Slayer;5936475]Do i tell people to stay in their lanes in other posts? When they constantly get taken over about 1 subject? No.
This isn't a venting thread, it's about a topic w/examples that are false towards said topic.[/QUOTE]
They are not false. They are clear examples showing these writers treating WW differently compared to when they write the male characters.
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Another one. joss whedon. For a long time. He was considered an ally for female representation. But now we know his true colors. The way he had WW used as a sexual joke in his take of jl, where Flash falls onto WW. And the way his script for that cancelled WW movie has basically steve trevor as the actual pillar of the movie. And treats WW and the amazons as eye candy.
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Just because Cheetah is defeated by another woman doesn't make it not sexist. We're talking about an arch-enemy of the most iconic female hero! You'd never see Joker or Luthor or even Sinestro treated like this. There's definitely sexism at play.
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[QUOTE=Psy-lock;5936521]Just because Cheetah is defeated by another woman doesn't make it not sexist. We're talking about an arch-enemy of the most iconic female hero! You'd never see Joker or Luthor or even Sinestro treated like this. There's definitely sexism at play.[/QUOTE]
Greg had Orphan be able to kill Joker until Batgirl blocked her. Harley has defeated Joker in her animated series. So....he's been treated that way.
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[QUOTE=Primal Slayer;5936532]Greg had Orphan be able to kill Joker until Batgirl blocked her. Harley has defeated Joker in her animated series. So....he's been treated that way.[/QUOTE]
That's Bat-characters taking on another Bst-character who's close to them in strength. That doesn't even come close to Batman one punching an avatar of a god and a literal goddess.
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[QUOTE=Psy-lock;5936544]That's Bat-characters taking on another Bst-character who's close to them in strength. That doesn't even come close to Batman one punching an avatar of a god and a literal goddess.[/QUOTE]
So if its bat kn bat its not sexist? But if its bat on wonder its sexist? That seems like its a different problem all together.
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[QUOTE=Primal Slayer;5936547]So if its bat kn bat its not sexist? But if its bat on wonder its sexist? That seems like its a different problem all together.[/QUOTE]
A non-powered human can't possibly defeat a god-powered individual in a physical fight, but apparently street levelers like Batman and Green Arrow can. Cheetah gets treated like a pathetic jobber outside of WW books more often than not, no male villain gets this much consistent disrespect, let alone a major arch-enemy.
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[QUOTE=Psy-lock;5936572]A non-powered human can't possibly defeat a god-powered individual in a physical fight, but apparently street levelers like Batman and Green Arrow can. Cheetah gets treated like a pathetic jobber outside of WW books more often than not, no male villain gets this much consistent disrespect, let alone a major arch-enemy.[/QUOTE]
Catwoman bester Grundy in the same film. And they can be bested, it just needs to be written correctly. Lex isn't superpowered yet is Supermans #1 foe. Catwoman didn't beat Cheetah in a physical fight. Strength had nothing to do with her defeat. Her underestimating Catwoman and playing with her is what lead to her literal downfall.
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[QUOTE=Primal Slayer;5936591]Catwoman bester Grundy in the same film. And they can be bested, it just needs to be written correctly. Lex isn't superpowered yet is Supermans #1 foe. Catwoman didn't beat Cheetah in a physical fight. Strength had nothing to do with her defeat. Her underestimating Catwoman and playing with her is what lead to her literal downfall.[/QUOTE]
Lex luthor challenges Superman through different ways outside of physical battles. and when he does battle Sm. He has kryptonite and a especial power suit. It wasn't the case with catwoman at all. catwoman was able to take hits from Cheetah. She was able hurt Cheetah with a kick. Dodge Cheetah and strangle her with a whip. None of that would be possible without plot armor protecting catwoman. She was physically capable of fighting her without an explanation. But we have covered that.
Now we can discuss other examples. I added joss whedon.
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[QUOTE=SiegePerilous02;5936447]He believed women were superior to men, which is not true feminism and is very much sexist against both genders, despite the good intentions. Plus all the gender essentialism.[/QUOTE]
If there is one thing I'm proud of having done on this forum, it is to introduce the term "gender essentialism" with regards to Marston. Because Marston was sexist as hell, just in a wholly different way than most of us think about sexism.
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[QUOTE=Primal Slayer;5936591]Catwoman bester Grundy in the same film. And they can be bested, it just needs to be written correctly. Lex isn't superpowered yet is Supermans #1 foe. Catwoman didn't beat Cheetah in a physical fight. Strength had nothing to do with her defeat. Her underestimating Catwoman and playing with her is what lead to her literal downfall.[/QUOTE]
Cheetah's defeat in that movie wasn't as egregious as some of her previous encounters with Catwoman, but it's yet another example of WW's arch-enemy getting beaten by a street leveler. It's a problem because it's a trend with Cheetah at this point. She was bested by Batman in Batman:Unlimited Instincts, shot by Jason Todd in Death in the Family, and killed by some random soldier with ordinary bullets in Apokolips War. What's next? Harley Quinn kills her with a bat? Alfred sends her flying with one punch? Lois Lane rips her apart by sneezing at her?
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[QUOTE=kjn;5936622]If there is one thing I'm proud of having done on this forum, it is to introduce the term "gender essentialism" with regards to Marston. Because Marston was sexist as hell, just in a wholly different way than most of us think about sexism.[/QUOTE]
Looks like some people can't handle it when the tables have turned. Not surprised. Still Marston was able to create a powerful, brave, sassy, intelectual and kind female character. Most writers couldn't portray WW in a good way even if their lives depended on it.
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It is interesting that some people are so fast to try to say that sexism is not a factor in all of this. But writers can be sexist even subconsciously.
Power levels may be a tired topic to some. But to me it is the perfect example of how the double standard works in comics regarding males and females. Since super hero comics are first and foremostaction-adventure genre, that has been dominated by men for the longest time. There is a very telling sign, when a separate standard defines the choices made for a character in a story depending on their gender, race or color. Look about the discussion about Diana's skills for example. Some here love to talk about how skills will allow her to defeat stronger opponents, but that is just a silly dream at this point. Her skills are never a factor under most writers. While most of these same writers will make sure to show the strength and skills of male characters. Where are her skills when she is getting stomped by doomsday, Darkseid, Mongul, Steppenwolf, bizarro etc. Where are her skills when Superman easily beats her and or kills her in 90% of their battles? As things stand, she is not just weaker than SM. She is far weaker. And her allegedly amazing skills and equiptment are never relevant to save her from getting her ass kicked. Even Aquaman is a good fight for WW. So she is not stronger than him, and her ''great'' skills, god like speed, flight and gear don't seem to add much in her favor. Since everytime they fight they are evenly matched. With a character like shazam you can also see the double standard. They both have the same power source. Diana is even historically stronger than Hercules, faster than Mercury, Wise as Athena. Yet i'm sure many writers and even some of you here would place him above her. When the only difference is that one is a man and the other a woman. On top of this. Why should she be weaker? WW was created to be a top notch powerhouse to prove girls can hang with the boys in this world of crazy super hero stuff. But more often than not, you will see writers try hard to establish how she isn't a big deal next to the big boys. On paper WW is a great character, with potential for great stories and some really great sytories have been made with her. But the execution has been awful most of the time. The majority of the time, she is Superman's punching bag and eye candy. Or batman's punching bag and eye candy. Or the punching bag for one of their villains. And her own villains are a punching bag for street levelers.
But this goes beyond power level. Her morality and goodness is always put into question compared to batman and superman. She always must be put in her place and control her anger and things like that. You know, the typical angry woman that can't control her emotions, that is unstable. It's very ironic. As a character created to represent equality, girl power and show that women can go as far as men. For the longest time, she has been and still is sadly. A great example of everything that is wrong with the way the comic industry treats female characters in general.
So i wouldn't be so fast if i were you, to say that sexism is not a factor in all of this. Because again, it can be there subconsciously. When you think about it, Hollywood/comic writers often make female characters mean, bossy that want to compete with the boys and honestly it’s exhausting and depressing to see. Then they make the male lead the rational and the strongest because male writers see themselves in these characters and want them to look good. And even female writers can be affected by this. After all. We live in a society that has understimated women and treated them as second class for a very, very long time. Do you have any idea the countless writers that were raised with these values without them even noticing? All of these things are worth discussing.
