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[QUOTE=Sans Simian;780815]I will quote from the other discussion, but someone already has!
This will be [I]the[/I] costume of all ComiCons this year.[/QUOTE]
Heh. It seems like she put the costume together before the issue came out. Wonder how she reacted when she found out she wasn't cosplaying Babs.
[QUOTE=resipsaloquitur;780846]Heh. It seems like she put the costume together before the issue came out. Wonder how she reacted when she found out she wasn't cosplaying Babs.[/QUOTE]
Which brings up an interesting point that is again being left out of this discussion: [I]Dagger is on the cover.[/I]
[QUOTE=Nick Miller;780819]What in the wide wide wide world of sports does DAGGER TYPE mean?
What kind of name is that?[/QUOTE]
It's a play on "daguerreotype". Because, you know, photographer...
[QUOTE=Sans Simian;780851]Which brings up an interesting point that is again being left out of this discussion: [I]Dagger is on the cover.[/I][/QUOTE]
It shouldn't matter that much, considering there are loads of people who cosplay (abeit intentionally) as genderbent versions of existing characters. VampyBitMe for instance was recently featured on CNN while cosplaying as Arkham Origins Deathstroke. Dunno if anyone managed to cosplay as Seamus Aran (Metroid) before they found out she was actually a woman?
I don't really see the issue here. Is the bigger point of contention that Dagger is a "villain" or that Barbara is having difficulty parsing the fact that Dagger's trans?
I'm of the mindset that any well-done characterization of a lgbt character can be seen as a positive, even if they're not saddled with a heroic bent.
And frankly, Barbara's been a "babe in the woods" naive little woodchuck, so even if she's had roommates and friends of other orientations, I don't think her response is that out of the norm. She's not perfect. She can be a total idiot at times (this in particular), as usually is the case with a person in their early 20s.
But that's the subtle nuance I want from a fleshed out character - and not a boring cipher that's got the right pose and right response to everything.
The real tragedy that this character could have springboarded into something recurring and could have really ramped up healthy dialogue and acceptance. Instead, it's probably going to be shelved in favor of something safe, cardboard and uninspiring (like most of Simone's lgbt characters, sad to say).
[QUOTE=Nick Miller;780819]What in the wide wide wide world of sports does DAGGER TYPE mean?
What kind of name is that? [/quote]
It's a play on the word "daguerreotype" (dag-air-oh-type), an early form of photography.
[quote]SO now we can't have any minority or segment of the population act crazy or villainous without it being problematic? And requiring apology?[/QUOTE]
Eventually there will be, maybe in a couple generations. But using it often, within living memory of how LGBT people have been portrayed/treated still leaves a sour taste and feelings of maliciousness. Just look at [B]Sherlock[/B]. Their portrayal of Moriarty is that of an effeminate/possibly gay male. It's sending the message that there is something inherently *wrong* with men who aren't masculine enough, who don't fit the mold.
When I saw the reveal, I just added it to DC's list of poor LGBT representation. Sure they have Alysia Yeoh (who appeared in all of two panels), but they still
[list][*]broke up Batwoman and her girlfriend[*]killed off Alan Scott's fiance[*]killed Sara Lance on [B]Arrow[/B][*]retconned Kate Godwin(Coagula) out of existence[*]broke up Apollo and Midnighter's marriage with the reboot[*]retconned Todd Rice (Obsidian) out of existance[/list]
And that's just off the top of my head. This can't be seen as a single incident, but part of a much larger trend. They may not have done it out of malice, but they still went to that wellspring all the same.
Like I said, maybe in a couple generations we can have villains who just happen to be LGBT, rather than using LGBT people as villains.
[QUOTE=Sirzechs;780536][img]http://i.imgur.com/AAaBBAL.jpg[/img]
Those that thing Dagger Type is Transgender should read this panel at least 10 times[/QUOTE]
As someone who's done drag for many years, I loved, loved, loved this panel.
[QUOTE=a. non;780929]
When I saw the reveal, I just added it to DC's list of poor LGBT representation. Sure they have Alysia Yeoh (who appeared in all of two panels), but they still
[list][*]broke up Batwoman and her girlfriend[*]killed off Alan Scott's fiance[*]killed Sara Lance on [B]Arrow[/B][*]retconned Kate Godwin(Coagula) out of existence[*]broke up Apollo and Midnighter's marriage with the reboot[*]retconned Todd Rice (Obsidian) out of existance[/list][/QUOTE]
[list][*]killed off Alan Scott's fiance [B](Alive: Avatar of White)[/B][*]killed Sara Lance on [B]Arrow[/B] (Not really fair Sara was a placeholder Character from the get go for Laurel, granted I'd kill Laurel and have Sara stay since she's a better character)[*]broke up Apollo and Midnighter's marriage with the reboot (They're dating still, no Marriage affects every characters not just gay ones)[/list]
[QUOTE=Outside_85;780895]It shouldn't matter that much, considering there are loads of people who cosplay (abeit intentionally) as genderbent versions of existing characters. VampyBitMe for instance was recently featured on CNN while cosplaying as Arkham Origins Deathstroke. Dunno if anyone managed to cosplay as Seamus Aran (Metroid) before they found out she was actually a woman?[/QUOTE]
Well, there's really three types of genderbending cosplay out there:
- The sheer humor stuff, like when a fat guy wears a Princess Leia bikini. This is played for laughs.
- The "Rule 63" stuff, where a man or a woman dresses like an opposite sex version of an existing character. If a woman wanted to dress as Batman, she'd dress as a "Batwoman"--not Kate Kane, but a female version of Bruce Wayne. Basically, it's Earth-11ing a character to fit your sex.
- Crossplay: A portmanteau of "cosplay" and "crossdressing," this is where you literally dress as an opposite sex character with the goal of actually playing as that character. So if a man wants to crossplay as Wonder Woman, he's [U]literally[/U] going for Wonder Woman to the fullest extent possible. Due to body types, some people don't pull this off very well. A 5' female is not going to pull off the Hulk very well no matter how much padding she applies, nor is a 300 lb. male going to make a very impressive Wasp. On the other hand, some people have the right body type and artistry to pull this off frighteningly well.
So I guess Dagger Type is crossplaying Babs, but if a guy wants to dress as DT, then he's cosplaying, not crossplaying. How meta.
[QUOTE=a. non;780929]It's a play on the word "daguerreotype" (dag-air-oh-type), an early form of photography.
Eventually there will be, maybe in a couple generations. But using it often, within living memory of how LGBT people have been portrayed/treated still leaves a sour taste and feelings of maliciousness. Just look at [B]Sherlock[/B]. Their portrayal of Moriarty is that of an effeminate/possibly gay male. It's sending the message that there is something inherently *wrong* with men who aren't masculine enough, who don't fit the mold.
When I saw the reveal, I just added it to DC's list of poor LGBT representation. Sure they have Alysia Yeoh (who appeared in all of two panels), but they still
[list][*]broke up Batwoman and her girlfriend[*]killed off Alan Scott's fiance[*]killed Sara Lance on [B]Arrow[/B][*]retconned Kate Godwin(Coagula) out of existence[*]broke up Apollo and Midnighter's marriage with the reboot[*]retconned Todd Rice (Obsidian) out of existance[/list]
And that's just off the top of my head. This can't be seen as a single incident, but part of a much larger trend. They may not have done it out of malice, but they still went to that wellspring all the same.
Like I said, maybe in a couple generations we can have villains who just happen to be LGBT, rather than using LGBT people as villains.[/QUOTE]
So having a perfect cipher just to counterbalance some bad decisions that weren't even in the creators' wheelhouse to begin with? That's tokenism, NO THANK YOU.
[QUOTE=a. non;780929]When I saw the reveal, I just added it to DC's list of poor LGBT representation.[/QUOTE]
I don't know, all I saw it as was a male character assuming a female identity to further a set plan, not as part of any kind of slight on LGBT representation.
As for the LGBT characters as villains thing, why not? LGBT villains are hardly the focus of all villainy, they're just focused on by some when they are shown to be so.
Is Dagger Type even a villain? All I see is a healthy dislike of authority and a healthy appreciation of sequins. I can't fault either.
But yea, bring on more of Alysia Yeoh as she was in Simone's run. She was great beige furniture. Didn't do much but watch Babs' cat and listen to her kvetch.
[QUOTE=jules;780881]It's a play on "daguerreotype". Because, you know, photographer...[/QUOTE]
there we go..thanks!
Thinking of other examples of this in comics (though not with villains):
- Madam Fatal, a Golden Age character, was a regular guy who disguised himself as an old lady to fight crime.
- Jimmy Olsen has had female disguises. Morrison nodded to this in All-Star Superman.
- In 1602, Jean Grey disguised herself as "John Grey" for most of the series.
- Mystek in Justice League Task Force.
- Echo disguised herself as the male Ronin in New Avengers.
- Mattie Franklin disguised herself as the male Spider-Man to convince people that Spidey was still active.
None of them were trans--they'd all cross-dressed for a specific in-story reason.
[QUOTE=QBall;780975]As for the LGBT characters as villains thing, why not? LGBT villains are hardly the focus of all villainy, they're just focused on by some when they are shown to be so.[/QUOTE]
I counter your question with one of my own. Where are all the Trans* HEROES?!
That's really the brunt of the issue here. You are allowed to have Gender non-conforming characters be villains and be crazy all you want, I mean, in real life the bad and crazy people come in all shapes and sizes, however, it needs to be balanced out with POSITIVE Portrayals, and we are EXCEEDINGLY short of those in the DC Universe these days, really comics as a whole.
Not counting characters whose gender non-conforming status is magical/Sci-Fi in nature (Man magically or Super Technologically transformed wholesale into a woman or vice versa) name me ONE character who is simply a real-world trans person in the DC Universe. Ok, you've named Alysia Yeoh, now name me another. I'll wait.
By and large not conforming to typical gender roles for any reason (Trans/Genderqueer/Drag/Crossdressing) is still by our society equated with "Wrong", "Evil", "Bad" etc. So in the DC Universe they're either "Token Supporting character who is stated to be trans but otherwise that facet is ignored" or "Some level of Villain". There isn't a single, not ONE Single trans or gender non-conforming hero whatsoever in the DC Universe right now.
Alysia, our one positive portrayal, is still problematic in the fact that she was revealed to be trans in Batgirl 19, which was awesome..... then.... her transness was never referenced again. To anyone who missed that issue or simply doesn't like trans people and chose to ignore that moment, there's no reason she can't simply be Cis from then on.
The visibility of the entire Gender expression spectrum in comics whether it be Trans/Drag/Crossdressing is extremely low, and we don't need what little representation we DO get to be Villains.
Comics aren't alone in this, here's [URL="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XdmJXHJLZ6M"]an episode of a really good video game series[/URL] that explores this in the gaming community, but it's the same damn problem.