Captain America, depending on the writer, has displayed the willingness to kill in extreme situations. Heck, even Gruenwald, who took the baffling side that Cap wouldn't even kill Nazis during war as an enlisted soldier, did a story about him killing a terrorist. It's a part of Cap's character, even if he's not the Punisher or something.
It would be:
Batman
Harley Quinn
John Constantine
Damian Wayne
If the guys making the Nu52 movies were in charge. lol
[QUOTE=Alan2099;5877001]Asgard has never been really accurate to viking culture. It's as much fairytale King Arthur's court as anything.[/QUOTE]
Indeed; Marvel's Asgard isn't a one-for-one parallel to the mythology and is, of course, scrubbed clean of a lot of the less savory traditions of viking culture (not that "viking" is a culture, mostly just a job title, but you get my meaning).
However, I think that cultural lens still serves as a kind of baseline for what is deemed "worthy" by Mjolnir's standards. Odin put the enchantment on the hammer, it's largely what *he* thinks of as worthy, and if you include newer changes to the canon then the godstorm within the hammer has some influence over it too.
Oh, and Jane did kill while Thor, as I recall. Mostly giants and non-humans from the Ten Realms, but killing a sentient creature is still killing a sentient creature whether they look human or not. I could be wrong though, I haven't read the JaneThor stuff in quite a while now.
And I brought up the use of lethal force just because it was an easy example to use in regards to Clark. There's other things at play there that I believe would make Clark unworthy of the hammer but killing was the easiest way to get my point across.
Bottom line, I don't think Clark's idea of worthiness is totally inline with Odin's.
As for Cap....I've only read a few runs, Brubaker and Waid and some others, so I'm not an expert on the comic version at all. I do know that for a time Marvel claimed that Steve never took a life but I don't know if that's still canon anymore, and I'd refuse to believe or accept it if it is. Dude fought in the biggest war in human history, on the front lines of the biggest battles, and we're meant to think he never killed an enemy combatant? Sorry, I don't buy it.
[QUOTE]I'd rule out Batman because he's not really noble hearted in the way Odin would see it. He's arrogant, disrespectful, underhanded, and scheming.[/QUOTE]
Agreed. Bruce, the entire Bat family, anyone who relies on stealth and subterfuge to win a fight probably isn't worthy by Odin's standards. Odin was a trickster in the old myths and I'm sure even the comic version (who's more blustering old barbarian than the source material) would recognize the need for clever battle tactics and some underhanded strategy, but there's a difference between that and the kind of tactics Bruce and similar heroes employ as a regular thing.
Y'all are just running with this theory that killing makes you noble in Odin's eyes. I guess Punisher will be able to lift it with ease.
It also means newage Superman can lift it since DC seems to love having him kill and becoming a dictator these days
[QUOTE=Lukmendes;5877133]
That's golden age Thor right?
[/QUOTE]
That's TALES OF THE UNEXPECTED 16 (August 1957), "The Magic Hammer" (writer unknown) with art by Jack Kirby, in which Gerald Barnes discovers Thor's hammer and uses it for his own selfish ends before the thunder god himself shows up to reclaim [i]Mjölnir[/i]. Kirby draws the hammer exactly as he would later for the Marvel Comics version.
Punisher, for the most part, is exactly the opposite end of the spectrum from unworthy Thor. Odin's enchantment would probably recognize him as nothing but a bloodthirsty, deathseeking berserker. Maybe early in his vigilante career he could've been molded to be worthy, but that's dead and buried with Frank's humanity.
Maybe Doctor Fate could just undo Odin's enchantment of the hammer.
[QUOTE=Jody Garland;5877304]Captain America, depending on the writer, has displayed the willingness to kill in extreme situations. Heck, even Gruenwald, who took the baffling side that Cap wouldn't even kill Nazis during war as an enlisted soldier, did a story about him killing a terrorist. It's a part of Cap's character, even if he's not the Punisher or something.[/QUOTE]
If "willingness to kill in extreme situations" counts, then Supes would be included.
[QUOTE=John Venus;5877327]It would be:
Batman
Harley Quinn
John Constantine
Damian Wayne
If the guys making the Nu52 movies were in charge. lol[/QUOTE]
And if Dick went anywhere near the hammer, it would start to float and beat him to death.
[QUOTE=Ascended;5877377]As for Cap....I've only read a few runs, Brubaker and Waid and some others, so I'm not an expert on the comic version at all. I do know that for a time Marvel claimed that Steve never took a life but I don't know if that's still canon anymore, and I'd refuse to believe or accept it if it is. Dude fought in the biggest war in human history, on the front lines of the biggest battles, and we're meant to think he never killed an enemy combatant? Sorry, I don't buy it. [/quote]
We're talking about the same world where the Hulk also never killed anyone, comic books don't give a damn about any sort of logic.
[QUOTE=Jim Kelly;5877439]That's TALES OF THE UNEXPECTED 16 (August 1957), "The Magic Hammer" (writer unknown) with art by Jack Kirby, in which Gerald Barnes discovers Thor's hammer and uses it for his own selfish ends before the thunder god himself shows up to reclaim [i]Mjölnir[/i]. Kirby draws the hammer exactly as he would later for the Marvel Comics version.[/QUOTE]
Ah, thanks.
[QUOTE=Jody Garland;5877442]Punisher, for the most part, is exactly the opposite end of the spectrum from unworthy Thor. Odin's enchantment would probably recognize him as nothing but a bloodthirsty, deathseeking berserker. Maybe early in his vigilante career he could've been molded to be worthy, but that's dead and buried with Frank's humanity.[/QUOTE]
Even if we ignore that time he tried to kill a couple for littering (Was in Spectacular Spider-Man#82, think that was retconned as him being drugged and becoming more violent) early Punisher wasn't that different, he was only slightly less bloodthristy.
The “worthiness” qualifications don’t have a helpful checklist to really go by, so I think with the proper argument anybody could work. Not that that matters for Hawkman, Hawkwoman, or Hawkgirl, but I’d wager Hawkboy could do it too.
[QUOTE=Lukmendes;5877480]
Even if we ignore that time he tried to kill a couple for littering (Was in Spectacular Spider-Man#82, think that was retconned as him being drugged and becoming more violent) early Punisher wasn't that different, he was only slightly less bloodthristy.[/QUOTE]
I meant chronologically, not the early appearances. But you're right overall. That appearance- I think a Mantlo fill-in?- was eventually retconned as Jigsaw or somebody drugging him in the first issue of the solo title. Probably for the best, though I can see the story Mantlo was going for.
[QUOTE=Jody Garland;5877531]I meant chronologically, not the early appearances.[/quote]
Huh, are there stories after his family got killed, but before his debut in ASM#129 where he's less bloodthristy? Is that what you mean?
[quote]But you're right overall. That appearance- I think a Mantlo fill-in?- was eventually retconned as Jigsaw or somebody drugging him in the first issue of the solo title. Probably for the best, though I can see the story Mantlo was going for.[/QUOTE]
Yeah it was by Mantlo, didn't know it was explained in a mini though, and it's almost a throwaway line too:
[img]https://i.imgur.com/n5dq1OU.png[/img]
(Punisher#1)
I was surprised it happened in here, 'cause I remember there was a story where Spidey cures Punisher of something, and Punisher is even attacking him while Spidey is working on a cure, I thought that was the explanation about him being cured from the drugs, but checking it out here, it happened in ASM Annual#15, and he was just poisoned, and was attacking Spidey 'cause the poison muddled his mind lol.
[QUOTE=seismic-2;5877466]Maybe Doctor Fate could just undo Odin's enchantment of the hammer.[/QUOTE]
I'm pretty sure the enchantment has been broken, or at least messed with, by people with less power and knowledge than a Lord of Order, so yeah I'd be willing to believe that Fate could break it.
[QUOTE=Lukmendes;5877480]If "willingness to kill in extreme situations" counts, then Supes would be included.[/QUOTE]
I think when it comes to this particular wrinkle in defining "worthy" via Odin's perspective, it's not about taking a life so much as being willing and able to do what must be done to protect those under your care. I think to be worthy by Mjolnir's enchantment, one must be willing to sacrifice everything for duty and then shoulder the burden of that, and carry on. Your own comfort is less important than the greater good and protecting your charge. Clark will kill, and has in nearly every version and continuity around, but he tends to break under the strain of it. But that's the least of why I think he wouldn't, under normal circumstances, be considered worthy by the enchantment. Seriously, if he had never taken a single life ever, or if he were drenched in blood up to his elbows, either way he'd still be unworthy, I think.
[QUOTE]We're talking about the same world where the Hulk also never killed anyone, comic books don't give a damn about any sort of logic.[/QUOTE]
Yeah and that never worked for me either and I reject that as soundly as I reject the idea of Cap never killing. I don't know what Marvel's current stance on this is, but it doesn't stand up to the internal logic within the setting and seems just some bullsh*t designed to keep the defunct comics code authority quiet and happy. Some heroes don't kill and never have. Steve and Banner are not, should not, be among them.
There *is* logic in comics. It's not our logic, but there's an internal logic within the setting. When a comic goes against that, it's not because there's no rhyme or reason, it's because the writing is either simply bad or the writing had to be bent around a real world concern. Heroes not killing became the norm largely because villains proved popular enough to be re-used, and because the previously mentioned comics code didn't like it.
[QUOTE=TheRay;5877490]The “worthiness” qualifications don’t have a helpful checklist to really go by, so I think with the proper argument anybody could work. Not that that matters for Hawkman, Hawkwoman, or Hawkgirl, but I’d wager Hawkboy could do it too.[/QUOTE]
Actually, Carter and Shayera very well might be worthy. I can totally see that. They possess a nobility and sense of duty born of long lifetimes, they can be merciful when it is deserved and merciless when it is not. I'd totally believe that they fit Odin's ideals of worthiness.
Here's the official list according to CBR:
CBR: 5 DC Heroes Who Could Lift Thor's Hammer (& 5 Who Don't Stand A Chance)
[url]https://www.cbr.com/dc-heroes-who-could-and-couldnt-lift-thors-hammer/[/url]
[QUOTE]Few people in the Marvel Universe can claim to be worthy of Mjolnir. Even fewer in the DC Universe can make that claim. But there are some who can, or even have, lifted Thor's hammer in DC.
[U][SIZE=5]Worthy[/SIZE][/U]
[B]Superman[/B]
Back in the day when DC and Marvel actually used to partner on comics from time to time, a situation cropped up when dealing with Krona. It gave Superman the opportunity to wield both Thor's hammer and Captain America's shield at the same time. It's important to note that the rules around worthiness had been temporarily suspended to allow this to happen.
As soon as the fight was over, Superman couldn't lift the hammer anymore. But under normal circumstances without any weird interference, Superman is worthy of Mjolnir. He's not the biggest boy scout in DC for nothing.
[B]
Billy Batson[/B]
Captain Marvel, aka Shazam, is one of the most powerful heroes DC has to offer. He's on Superman's level, though Shazam's powers are derived from magic. But being powerful is not what makes Shazam worthy of Mjolnir. In fact, Shazam is not the one who is worthy of the hammer. Billy Batson is.
When the young man speaks the magic phrase SHAZAM, he gains the formidable powers of six immortal elders. Batson had to be worthy of this power to wield it. The same qualities that make Batson worthy of Shazam's power make him worthy of Thor's hammer.
[B]
Adam Strange[/B]
One of the key qualities Mjolnir seems to respond to is sacrifice and Adam Strange is the poster boy for it. An archaeologist working in Peru, Adam suddenly found himself transported to the planet Rann via Zeta-Beam. Once there, Adam started building a life as Rann's greatest hero and defender. He also found love with a young woman named Alanna.
The unfortunate reality is that the effects of the Zeta-Beam are temporary, returning Adam to the same point he left from when it wears off. He keeps taking Zeta-Beams back to Rann but is repeatedly torn from the planet and woman he loves. That is sacrifice.
[B]John Stewart[/B]
As a Green Lantern, John Stewart struggled with being second to Hal Jordan. Though the two men built a strong friendship over the years, Jordan casts a wide shadow in the Green Lantern Corps. What sets Stewart apart from other Lanterns is how he handles adversity.
At one point when his ring was depowered, Stewart found himself jailed and tortured in another country. He overcame that, in part due to getting his powers back, and moved on from there. While not every decision he makes is the right one, Stewart has proven to be a hero of strong will and character, exactly what someone needs to hold Mjolnir.
[B]Wonder Woman[/B]
During the Amalgam storyline when Marvel and DC faced off for the survival of their respective universes, Wonder Woman found herself in possession of Mjolnir. Not only did she hold it, but she was also able to access its full power and had the opportunity to use it in the battle against Storm. She chose not to, then lost the fight, which is the exact reason why she was worthy. Wonder Woman is an honorable, principled warrior, the type of warrior who would give up an unfair advantage even if it meant losing a fight. Few heroes would be willing to do that.
[U][SIZE=5]Not Worthy[/SIZE][/U]
[B]Batman[/B]
The Dark Knight might be one of the least worthy heroes in any universe. While Batman does have some of the characteristics you think would allow him to lift Mjolnir, he also has committed a number of acts that disqualify him. This is a man who once kept extensive files on his allies in case he needed to take them down, files that were stolen and used against said allies.
Batman's dubious, manipulative relationships with many of his fellow heroes are the least of the issues that would keep him from wielding the hammer. That being said, Batman is also the least likely to even want the damn thing so this probably won't bother him.
[B]Green Arrow[/B]
Brash. Arrogant. Egotistical. Not only is Green Arrow not worthy of lifting Mjolnir, but he might also be the living embodiment of the qualities that caused Thor to lose the hammer in the first place. No one is suggesting that Green Arrow isn't a great hero.
His service to the world and the universe as a whole as a member of the Justice League is not in question at all. But that doesn't change the reality of the man behind the mask. Oliver Queen is not the type of person Mjolnir is looking for, even though he is a hero. The man is often a jerk in the worst sense of the word.
[B]Aquaman[/B]
As King of the Seven Seas, Aquaman has had to make some incredibly dubious choices to protect his kingdom. Those choices have caused problems with the Justice League as well as various government bodies on the surface world. None of that specifically makes Aquaman unworthy of Mjolnir's might.
What does make him unworthy is who he has more becomes in more recent years. More frequently, he plays the role of a deposed king and a hero that has fallen from grace. Aquaman is neither the hero nor the man he used to be, and certainly not worthy of Mjolnir.
[B]Huntress[/B]
As part of the extended Bat-family, Huntress rides on the periphery of what Batman finds acceptable in a crime fighter. Bertinelli is known for her brutality on the streets of Gotham. She's also known for making detrimental decisions to her career, like trusting the man who turned out to be Hush with upgrades to her crime-fighting gear.
Huntress is a tough hero but she also rides the line in some situations. She's constantly trying to learn and do better, but she's also a little too preoccupied with Batman's approval. It would be surprising if she was able to lift the hammer.
[B]Hal Jordan[/B]
Considering that Hal Jordan might be the greatest Green Lantern to ever wear a ring, you'd think that would put him at the front of the line to be worthy. Not so much. His run as Parallax is a huge black mark on his record. Sacrificing the rest of the Green Lantern Corps to get the power to resurrect his home city was a horrifying plan.
Even worse, he tried to change things by destroying the universe and rebuilding it in a manner he approved of. No matter how much good he did before that time or after it, Jordan can't come back from the Parallax incident. He will never be worthy.[/QUOTE]
They might want to revisit that Adam Strange ranking
[QUOTE=Ascended;5877607]I think when it comes to this particular wrinkle in defining "worthy" via Odin's perspective, it's not about taking a life so much as being willing and able to do what must be done to protect those under your care. I think to be worthy by Mjolnir's enchantment, one must be willing to sacrifice everything for duty and then shoulder the burden of that, and carry on. Your own comfort is less important than the greater good and protecting your charge. Clark will kill, and has in nearly every version and continuity around, but he tends to break under the strain of it. But that's the least of why I think he wouldn't, under normal circumstances, be considered worthy by the enchantment. Seriously, if he had never taken a single life ever, or if he were drenched in blood up to his elbows, either way he'd still be unworthy, I think. [/quote]
Yeah I guess that could make sense, in a good day if Marvel ever remembers the "willing to kill" rule, which I doubt they usually do lol.
[quote]Yeah and that never worked for me either and I reject that as soundly as I reject the idea of Cap never killing. I don't know what Marvel's current stance on this is, but it doesn't stand up to the internal logic within the setting and seems just some bullsh*t designed to keep the defunct comics code authority quiet and happy. Some heroes don't kill and never have. Steve and Banner are not, should not, be among them. [/quote]
As recent as Immortal Hulk that's still mentioned, while it's pointed out that Devil Hulk doesn't care about this (And he did kill a few characters), it still means the other Hulks didn't kill, meaning all of those rampages killed nobody.
As for Cap, I dunno why that's hard to accept, he was around punching people in the face and using his shield, he wasn't like the other soldiers, Bucky was even eventually retconned as being the one the military used to kill.
[quote]There *is* logic in comics. It's not our logic, but there's an internal logic within the setting. When a comic goes against that, it's not because there's no rhyme or reason, it's because the writing is either simply bad or the writing had to be bent around a real world concern. Heroes not killing became the norm largely because villains proved popular enough to be re-used, and because the previously mentioned comics code didn't like it.[/quote]
I mean, if we go by that "internal logic", then it basically says "Hulk didn't kill because of Banner's bullshit magic math skills and Punisher's bullets don't ricochet and kill innocents" lol.
So it's stuff that makes no actual sense, and it's the same logic as Yakuza's "Kiryu never killed", it's just another comic bullshit ya gotta accept 'cause it's super hero comic books.
Is the Thor from the Sandman Universe "worthy"? He's pretty much a lout. Still, it's Odin's call, right?
[IMG]https://64.media.tumblr.com/42340021dfa9adfc860e77a53573458b/tumblr_inline_oxujlcYnon1qec1pk_540.png[/IMG]