-
[QUOTE=Morning;4749897]Gravity distorts the space [I]around[/I] the object creating it, so it would make sense for space to distort in front of Madara right before a near-light speed object makes contact.[/quote]
Not certain if you're reaching for this one but going to just jump on it anyway because it's been brought up before.
No one in Naruto is near lightspeed. I've literally done the debunking work on this one myself previously.
[quote]It would be compelling if that area were the only place where space bends, but the manga doesn't show this either way--the panel zooms in because it's the only spot that matters to the fight.
[url]https://imgur.com/a/ja5adTs[/url]
While Madara is impressed by the chakra, there is no mention of its "density" at any point in the fight. He does mention speed though, immediately before the space-bending feat itself. I think that makes it very clear how we're supposed to read it.[/QUOTE]
The term 'density' is my terminology, sure, but it's the best way for me to communicate what makes sense to me. When Gai prepares the Night Gai attack, his chakra goes from being a regular eight gates type aura to a giant rampaging beast monster thing that other characters find it hard to even be in the presence of. Madara explicitly mentions the chakra on the page you've posted. He's like "I'll acknowledge your chakra, you're the best at Taijutsu,"
He says Gai is fast but Gai has been being fast the entire fight. Not a few chapters prior to this particular moment, Gai was doing coordinated attacks on all sides with himself. Madara going "Hmm, he's fast," and then going "Wtf space is bending," doesn't automatically mean that the two are linked.
For my money, the space bending thing is not a product of Gai's speed. He doesn't seem to be moving particularly faster than he was previously given how Madara seems to react to it and the only thing that really changed is that his body is clearly giving off a metric ton more chakra than before because of this move.
-
[QUOTE=Nik Hasta;4749911]
No one in Naruto is near lightspeed. I've literally done the debunking work on this one myself previously.[/QUOTE]
As have I; and I disagreed with you, then and now. But for now, let's just stick to this one feat. It's Christmas and I only have so much time.
[quote]He doesn't seem to be moving particularly faster than he was previously given how Madara seems to react to it[/quote]
To me, the fact that Madara notes that the attack is fast after previously noting other attacks as fast suggsts that it is, indeed, [I]faster[/I]. Otherwise it would not be notable again. This is in line with Guy's character as well, as increasing the speed of his attacks has usually been the way he increases their power.
[QUOTE]and the only thing that really changed is that his body is clearly giving off a metric ton more chakra than before because of this move.[/QUOTE]
So if space is already bent around him while he's standing still with all that chakra, it's the chakra causing it. Is it, or is it not?
-
[QUOTE=Morning;4749975]As have I; and I disagreed with you, then and now. But for now, let's just stick to this one feat. It's Christmas and I only have so much time.[/quote]
Gotta love; "imply that the characters in a series operate wildly above their established parameters but then dismiss the idea of actually defending said claim because I apparently don't have the time,"
-_-
If you just want to talk about the feat then by all means do so but I'd appreciate it if you wouldn't try and push a fringe interpretation of the franchise as a whole while you do it.
[Quote]To me, the fact that Madara notes that the attack is fast after previously noting other attacks as fast suggsts that it is, indeed, [I]faster[/I]. Otherwise it would not be notable again. This is in line with Guy's character as well, as increasing the speed of his attacks has usually been the way he increases their power.[/quote]
I would look at it the other way. Madara previously noted that things were fast and was mostly unable to take action against them. This time, same again, he's able to be like "dang, that's fast," raise his staff in a defensive stance and then note that space is bending. None of it is particularly credible defensive action.
As Madara's reaction is fairly consistent, I don't see how this translates to Night Gai being particularly faster than earlier instances of Gai within the Eighth Gate formation. Especially wherein he's doing more impressive things like the self coordinated attacks I mentioned earlier.
Night Gai hits really hard but we know that enough chakra massively boosts strength without necessarily enhancing speed because of Chouji and his mothra form.
My overall point is that it's not a very good feat for speed.
[Quote]So if space is already bent around him while he's standing still with all that chakra, it's the chakra causing it. Is it, or is it not?[/QUOTE]
No one is close enough to comment on it because they are forced away by his aura. Space bends as he and his chakra approach Madara and the space bends ahead of Gai actually reaching his target.
The only thing that Gai is doing that extends beyond his person is giving off tons of chakra. Madara commented on his chakra as being the impressive thing.
Ergo, because of all that, looks like the chakra to me.
Again, to reiterate my point; I don't think it's a factor of Gai's speed that causes space to bend. I think it's a factor of his chakra. I'm not saying Gai isn't incredibly fast but I don't think that feat has the legs you're claiming it does.
-
[QUOTE=Nik Hasta;4750281]Gotta love; "imply that the characters in a series operate wildly above their established parameters but then dismiss the idea of actually defending said claim because I apparently don't have the time,"
-_-
If you just want to talk about the feat then by all means do so but I'd appreciate it if you wouldn't try and push a fringe interpretation of the franchise as a whole while you do it.
[/quote]
I wasn't trying to pull a fast one. I just, person-to-person, didn't want you to go through the effort of a deep dive into the entirety of Naruto powerscaling if I knew I might not have time to read it right away. If you insisted on it, of course, I don't presume that I could have stopped you.
Additionally, I am surprised to hear you think mine is the fringe position. In my experience, most people already view this as a speed feat; which means "no one in Naruto is anywhere near lightspeed" is, as I said at first, a hot take. I thought you were aware of that and just confident in yourself anyway, until this very moment.
If you want to get into it, I'll try to keep up.
[quote]No one is close enough to comment on it because they are forced away by his aura. Space bends as he and his chakra approach Madara and the space bends ahead of Gai actually reaching his target.[/quote]
I don't understand why you're still talking about space bending ahead of Gai. Space bend around an object--all objects, to some extent. "Ahead" would just one of the many directions of "around."
[quote]The only thing that Gai is doing that extends beyond his person is giving off tons of chakra. Madara commented on his chakra as being the impressive thing.[/quote]
Which brings us back to the fact that there's no evidence of space bending around his chakra until he's moving at top speed. Even if no one commented on it, might we not see it in the art if it happened when he was still standing on solid ground?
I agree that it's a weird feat. But I still think it's clear how we are supposed to read it.
-
To save myself typing it all again, I've been looking for the list of feats and debunking I did of them the last time this came up on the board. Annoyingly, I can't find it so if we do get into this it means more typing for me. >_<
Amusingly, I did see a list you mentioned in a different thread and it was pretty much the list I actually went through so I know I can offer counter-arguments to your evidence as it stands. (Madara Sage Lightning/Toneri Moon Cutter/Night Gai/etc).
[QUOTE=Morning;4751266]I wasn't trying to pull a fast one. I just, person-to-person, didn't want you to go through the effort of a deep dive into the entirety of Naruto powerscaling if I knew I might not have time to read it right away. If you insisted on it, of course, I don't presume that I could have stopped you.
Additionally, I am surprised to hear you think mine is the fringe position. In my experience, most people already view this as a speed feat; which means "no one in Naruto is anywhere near lightspeed" is, as I said at first, a hot take. I thought you were aware of that and just confident in yourself anyway, until this very moment.
If you want to get into it, I'll try to keep up.[/quote]
Hearing that Naruto as a franchise being not a fringe take is something a bit boggling to me. Depends what circles you move in I suppose.
I don't think either of us are too enthused about getting into this topic in-depth, lord knows the festive season has left me comparatively fat and lazy, I'll opt to continue working away at the Night Gai feat.
[quote]I don't understand why you're still talking about space bending ahead of Gai. Space bend around an object--all objects, to some extent. "Ahead" would just one of the many directions of "around."[/quote]
See, this is frankly a confusing statement you've made here.
The space bending is the crux of your argument for it being incredibly fast, is it not? I fear I might be missing what you're trying to say here.
Rephrase?
[quote]Which brings us back to the fact that there's no evidence of space bending around his chakra until he's moving at top speed. Even if no one commented on it, might we not see it in the art if it happened when he was still standing on solid ground?
I agree that it's a weird feat. But I still think it's clear how we are supposed to read it.[/QUOTE]
It is precisely the weirdness about it that makes me think it's not really meaningful as a feat of speed.
Quite apart from the bending of space, which I've expressed my misgivings about at length, Madara doesn't react to Night Gai's speed any differently to other instances of Eight Gates Gai. He's able to take small actions and monologue internally but nothing significant. See when Gai is doing the frankly more impressive thing of blitzing around Madara over much larger area to coordinate attacks with himself with Sekizo.
From this, I can only surmise that Gai's speed during Night Gai is not significantly different. As I said before, the only thing that seems different is that Gai is giving off a lot more chakra, a facet of it which is commented on by Madara as well.
As I've said before, it's just not that useful as a speed feat. Hitting power? Sure. But it's not clean enough to be a useful speed feat.
-
So like.
Pretty sure Eight Gates Guy Sensei was punching the air so hard it was creating pressure waves, and kicking the air so hard he could walk up it. Why are you guys arguing about what sounds like ... well, more of that, after he goes Night Guy and dumps his life-force/chakra into a bull-rush/super kick ? Besides that, Madara barely had time to comment on the fact that Night Guy was 'fast' and 'bending space', before he got his arm kicked off. So there's certainly a 'he's faster than standard Eight Gates' considering Madara could track and react to him easily enough to the point where it required several people [B]helping [/B]Might Guy in order for him to land a solid blow.
So, IMO, honestly just seems like two separate effects of Might Guy's Charka output being stupid powerful when he ... dumps all of it into a single thing.
