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What of Xavier's Dream?
One of the things that first drew me to the X-Men comics was the idealism of Xavier's dream of Mutants and Humans living together in peace. It has been fascinating to watch over the years how that dream has flourished, floundered, and at times crumbled as it came into contact with the reality of prejudice and fear and as the author of the dream himself has demonstrated his own shortcomings. As the X-Men move once again into an era of segregation, I am wondering......what role does that vision play in the life of the current Mutant community? Has it been entirely set-aside? Does it still motivate some members of the community? Is there still hope in it?
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The Dream sucks ass so Moira made him drop it. Simple as that.
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[QUOTE=JTFSXX;4649715]One of the things that first drew me to the X-Men comics was the idealism of Xavier's dream of Mutants and Humans living together in peace. It has been fascinating to watch over the years how that dream has flourished, floundered, and at times crumbled as it came into contact with the reality of prejudice and fear and as the author of the dream himself has demonstrated his own shortcomings. As the X-Men move once again into an era of segregation, I am wondering......what role does that vision play in the life of the current Mutant community? Has it been entirely set-aside? Does it still motivate some members of the community? Is there still hope in it?[/QUOTE]
The simple answer is: Read HoX/PoX 1-6 in the reading order listed in the back of the issues, starting with House of X #1.
The more direct answer is: Xavier's dream, as he envisioned it, doesn't work long-term. Someone brings proof of this through their own mutation, and convinces Xavier and Magneto to do things differently so that Xavier's dream is accomplished.. now, and in the distant future. Read the above issues to see how that is.
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Mutants and humans live on the same planet in harmony and peace, establishing commercial and cultural relationships while both species flourish.
The Dream is real, Charles.
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On paper, and in the context of pre-Morrison X-Men, the dream was a good one stifled by the inherent need for conflict required by the comics medium and the restrictions of the superhero genre (and the politics of marvel itself)
After Morrison established that Mutants are the future and will inherit the earth; certain issues arise in the Dream that would stand out a lot more if Marvel humans were even slightly less psychotic, namely where baselines accept their obsolescence and step smiling into that good night, with the E-Gene taking care of any remnant population lacking a latent X-gene. Even discounting the sheer evil of marvel humans, that scenario was never going to fly
While HoX/PoX indicates that Xavier knew the OG dream and NXM versions of the Dream are bunk, and may well have used them it at least partially as a play for time/recruits, it does appear he genuinely tired to find a way out of having to take the steps he’s now taken, and odds are he’s still hoping for some form of coexistence (because if he’d truly given up, Krakoa wouldn’t be bothering with such niceties as they have), albeit with whatever nascent, preferably crippled, iteration of Novissima inevitably replaces the monkeys
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Xavier drinking tea with his pals while internally screaming because his dream is suboptimal.
XAVIER: "Yeah, I gave up on that."
NAMOR: "Mmmhmm. Sure, Jan."
Everyone asks about what Charles is doing but no one asks about how Charles is doing.
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Dreams change based on reality.
Someone could dream of being an artist all day but if they have no talent their dream will probably change.
Given the story Xavier finds out humans will become mutants or post humans. No need to fight to coexist with yourself. So now his dream is to ensure all humanity remains alive by protecting it from post humanity.
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[QUOTE=JTFSXX;4649715]One of the things that first drew me to the X-Men comics was the idealism of Xavier's dream of Mutants and Humans living together in peace. It has been fascinating to watch over the years how that dream has flourished, floundered, and at times crumbled as it came into contact with the reality of prejudice and fear and as the author of the dream himself has demonstrated his own shortcomings. As the X-Men move once again into an era of segregation, I am wondering......what role does that vision play in the life of the current Mutant community? Has it been entirely set-aside? Does it still motivate some members of the community? Is there still hope in it?[/QUOTE]
Completely set-aside?
seems like it. And Xavier plan is win the evolution game by wiping out humans
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I don't think the xmen can even work if they don't have humans hating mutants if they don't what's their purpose?
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[QUOTE=jwatson;4649859]Dreams change based on reality.
Someone could dream of being an artist all day but if they have no talent their dream will probably change.
Given the story Xavier finds out humans will become mutants or post humans. No need to fight to coexist with yourself. So now his dream is to ensure all humanity remains alive by protecting it from post humanity.[/QUOTE]
I agree, I think the long term goal is to prevent not just the X2 future where the machines rule Earth, but also the X3 future where all life is destroyed and digitized into the Phalanx and becomes just a memory of the Phalanx itself.
It's not like most humans wanted to be changed into post-humanity, they were forced to change by the Sentinel Ascendancy, accept your place in the Machine/Human Ascendancy or be purged!!
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[QUOTE=JTFSXX;4649715]One of the things that first drew me to the X-Men comics was the idealism of Xavier's dream of Mutants and Humans living together in peace. It has been fascinating to watch over the years how that dream has flourished, floundered, and at times crumbled as it came into contact with the reality of prejudice and fear and as the author of the dream himself has demonstrated his own shortcomings. As the X-Men move once again into an era of segregation, I am wondering......what role does that vision play in the life of the current Mutant community? Has it been entirely set-aside? Does it still motivate some members of the community? Is there still hope in it?[/QUOTE]
Hi, Welcome, don't let the yappy ones grind you down. Survive and thrive the experience ;)
[QUOTE]"As the X-Men move once again into an era of segregation,"[/QUOTE] - Oof, that's quite the opening gambit, as you can see, it triggers some. I'm still holding on to (tenuously) that Marvel have moved the mutants to segregation, the X-Men have yet to decide.
[QUOTE]"what role does that vision play in the life of the current Mutant community?"[/QUOTE] - They all seem to not even remember it thus far.
[QUOTE]"Has it been entirely set-aside?"[/QUOTE] - Nah, to be fair, Hickman has shown the mutants reaching out for peaceful coexistence, with the drugs n such.
[QUOTE]"Does it still motivate some members of the community?"[/QUOTE] - Who? Them (the characters) or us (the freaks of nature), I dunno, It seems to be being drowned out, between the back and forths and absolutes! As always some posters aren't quite so tolerant and open to any questioning and others picking things they like and don't. I personally think these comics should be inspirational on the whole, it's what drew me to the X-Men. Evolutionary progress, betterment, the bright future - that's taking a battering recently but hey, comics be cray cray.
[QUOTE]"Is there still hope in it?"[/QUOTE] - Always, inevitable, damned blasted hope, gimme the real thing, dammit.
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[QUOTE=RachelGrey;4650007]I agree, I think the long term goal is to prevent not just the X2 future where the machines rule Earth, but also the X3 future where all life is destroyed and digitized into the Phalanx and becomes just a memory of the Phalanx itself.
It's not like most humans wanted to be changed into post-humanity, they were forced to change by the Sentinel Ascendancy, accept your place in the Machine/Human Ascendancy or be purged!![/QUOTE]
Not to mention Xavier is actively among humans and helping them so the whole argument falls apart especially the bad humans one. We saw beast talk to a seemingly nice diplomat. Storm was with human campers in fearless. Scott was with his human father and put a flower in his ship. Betsy is with her human brother and jubilee is with her human baby. But I guess they want Hickman to waste panels on random humans to see there are good humans when we have been seeing them throughout the story. But because the story isn't dedicated to that somehow all humans are evil. But then they go but no one should expect someone to alter their book to tell a story if that isn't what the story is about but then ignore the story. I feel like I'm high or something. Lol
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[QUOTE=jwatson;4650031]Not to mention Xavier is actively among humans and helping them so the whole argument falls apart especially the bad humans one. We saw beast talk to a seemingly nice diplomat. Storm was with human campers in fearless. Scott was with his human father and put a flower in his ship. Betsy is with her human brother and jubilee is with her human baby. But I guess they want Hickman to waste panels on random humans to see there are good humans when we have been seeing them throughout the story. But because the story isn't dedicated to that somehow all humans are evil. But then they go but no one should expect someone to alter their book to tell a story if that isn't what the story is about but then ignore the story. I feel like I'm high or something. Lol[/QUOTE]
I think all these threads that are being started all in the last 3 days, are just concern trolling threads. Probably from Batman fans who are butthurt that their precious Batman isn't at the top of the sales charts and the X-Men kicked his leather covered ass and stomped on him!
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[QUOTE=Glio;4649802]Mutants and humans live on the same planet in harmony and peace, establishing commercial and cultural relationships while both species flourish.
The Dream is real, Charles.[/QUOTE]
Live on the same planet doesn't mean living together, and I don't see that harmony
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[QUOTE=RachelGrey;4650041]I think all these threads that are being started all in the last 3 days, are just concern trolling threads. Probably from Batman fans who are butthurt that their precious Batman isn't at the top of the sales charts and the X-Men kicked his leather covered ass and stomped on him![/QUOTE]
Hey, I'm all for King's run sliding down, it reflects the quality.
And honestly, I'm fine with the radical change, clearly SOMEthing needed to be done, especially after Rosenburgs run was so bad people around here started to say nice things about Avengers books.
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[QUOTE=spirit2011;4650047]Live on the same planet doesn't mean living together, and I don't see that harmony[/QUOTE]
Living on the same country or even city doesn't mean living together
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[QUOTE=spirit2011;4650047]Live on the same planet doesn't mean living together, and I don't see that harmony[/QUOTE]
The mutants have their same space and can walk to human society anytime they want. How is that not harmony? The one time mutants aren’t up to compromise their safety and livelihoods means they’re destroying the sanctity of co-existence. They’re still operating under living together, just not in a way that Xavier intended, which is completely fine. Something needed to be done or mutants would’ve just been killed.
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Thanks UR!
Several interesting comments. For me, comics have their own value as art and as a form of entertainment, but they are the most interesting when they provide insight/commentary on real life issues. The question that I ask about Xavier's dream could easily asked, especially in our current political context, of MLK's dream. I am just idealistic enough to hold out hope...but as Mike Tyson once said, "Everyone has a plan...until you get hit in the mouth."
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Question if humanity were to risk the X-men would save them again?
Answer yes for sure so coexistence is still part of their mission but now the terms and conditions are different .
This time saving the world and the next day being attacked by humans or robotic killers is no longer acceptable ;).
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Martin Luther King Jr regretted his dream a few years later because it was too naively optimistic and not grounded in reality.
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[QUOTE=Tycon;4650079]Martin Luther King Jr regretted his dream a few years later because it was too naively optimistic and not grounded in reality.[/QUOTE]
And Malcolm X regretted his stance towards peace being impossible.
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Yes! Certainly MLK (and I'm sure Xavier) saw, in light the of startling persistence of bigotry, the potential harm that could be done by confronting hate with naive idealism....and yet both, I'm also convinced, would still see the vision as a worthy goal. How a people confront injustice and hate in a pragmatic way without simply becoming that which they despise is interesting to me...whether the backdrop is Charlottesville or Krakoa.
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[QUOTE=JTFSXX;4650119]Yes! Certainly MLK (and I'm sure Xavier) saw, in light the of startling persistence of bigotry, the potential harm that could be done by confronting hate with naive idealism....and yet both, I'm also convinced, would still see the vision as a worthy goal. How a people confront injustice and hate in a pragmatic way without simply becoming that which they despise is interesting to me...whether the backdrop is Charlottesville or Krakoa.[/QUOTE]
Very easy to say though and be optimistic when they aren't in the thick of it, or the ones being killed by it, or forced to work on plantations. I can dream great thoughts for every too if i didn't have to worry about the consequences of other people's "reality".
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[QUOTE=JTFSXX;4650119]Yes! Certainly MLK (and I'm sure Xavier) saw, in light the of startling persistence of bigotry, the potential harm that could be done by confronting hate with naive idealism....and yet both, I'm also convinced, would still see the vision as a worthy goal. How a people confront injustice and hate in a pragmatic way without simply becoming that which they despise is interesting to me...whether the backdrop is Charlottesville or Krakoa.[/QUOTE]
Yeah attacking Nazis isn’t the same as being a Nazi.
[QUOTE=LordUltimus;4650104]And Malcolm X regretted his stance towards peace being impossible.[/QUOTE]
Man.....if only there was some sort of middle ground....hmm....where non-violent means are used when necessary...while uh.......also...damn my brain is hurting from all this thinking. Maybe *gears in my brain start snoking* we can develop deep allyship with communities that hold most positions of power while also recognizing the disadvantages faced and taking appropriate measures to ensure our safety and protection. Whew, almost had a skroke.
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[QUOTE=jwatson;4650130]Very easy to say though and be optimistic when they aren't in the thick of it, or the ones being killed by it, or forced to work on plantations. I can dream great thoughts for every too if i didn't have to worry about the consequences of other people's "reality".[/QUOTE]
Right, except MLK certainly WAS killed for it, right?
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[QUOTE=JTFSXX;4650139]Right, except MLK certainly WAS killed for it, right?[/QUOTE]
That's the theory.
But would it had been right for others to try to force him to keep dreaming when they are sitting back safe while he keeps getting punched in the face? Kind of insensitive if you ask me. I would hope they would want to stand in and put themselves at risk if they want to bystander believe from a safe space.
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[QUOTE=Tycon;4650137]Man.....if only there was some sort of middle ground....hmm....where non-violent means are used when necessary...while uh.......also...damn my brain is hurting from all this thinking. Maybe *gears in my brain start snoking* we can develop deep allyship with communities that hold most positions of power while also recognizing the disadvantages faced and taking appropriate measures to ensure our safety and protection. Whew, almost had a skroke.[/QUOTE]
That was kind of my point. "Speak softly, and carry a big stick."
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[QUOTE=JTFSXX;4650119]How a people confront injustice and hate in a pragmatic way without simply becoming that which they despise is interesting to me...whether the backdrop is Charlottesville or Krakoa.[/QUOTE]
Be very careful with that parallel when you talk about how 'pragmatic' people should be when dealing with murderous white supremacists. Thanks.
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Xavier had easy dreams of utopian ideals when he was a white millionaire with no visible mutations. Magneto had easy talk about superiority and direct violence when he had the power of a god.
None of them offered solutions for the mutant Average Joe.
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[QUOTE=LordUltimus;4650146]That was kind of my point. "Speak softly, and carry a big stick."[/QUOTE]
Yeah you can even see that with how Xavier talks now. He carried a comforting and caring tone when he was broadcasting to the world, but the things he was saying also had weight to it that knocks you back once you realized that mutants kind of got sick of being second-rate citizens of governments that could literally enact a law that said: “yeah we think y’all should all die” and law enforcement starts it up [B][I]immediately[/I][/B].
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Right. It was MLK's dream, rooted in his faith. He talked it and walked it and died for it. Xavier certainly has put himself out there in defense of it too. Not sure who is forcing anyone to dream without skin in the game...but it IS interesting to me both in the comics and in real life who chooses to buy in, who walks away, and where the risk tolerance threshold is for different people.
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[QUOTE=JTFSXX;4650168]Right. It was MLK's dream, rooted in his faith. He talked it and walked it and died for it. Xavier certainly has put himself out there in defense of it too. Not sure who is forcing anyone to dream without skin in the game...but it IS interesting to me both in the comics and in real life who chooses to buy in, who walks away, and where the risk tolerance threshold is for different people.[/QUOTE]
Walking away from what exactly? Dying a lot after doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result?
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[QUOTE=powerpax;4650151]Be very careful with that parallel when you talk about how 'pragmatic' people should be when dealing with murderous white supremacists. Thanks.[/QUOTE]
Yes, you are correct, if one were to use the word pragmatic to mean anything other than effective.
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[QUOTE=JTFSXX;4650168]Right. It was MLK's dream, rooted in his faith. He talked it and walked it and died for it. Xavier certainly has put himself out there in defense of it too. Not sure who is forcing anyone to dream without skin in the game...but it IS interesting to me both in the comics and in real life who chooses to buy in, who walks away, and where the risk tolerance threshold is for different people.[/QUOTE]
It always amazes me too. Especially when it's the voices of those who say All lives Matter but don't actually stand up or get out for All lives. Or those who aren't targetted by the police telling those who are to respect the cops while actually offering nothing else but a "it's not everybody." I actually have respect for women like Heather Heyer who put her money where her mouth was. I don't really have much for people who drone direct what should be right but can say so since it comes at no cost to them. But yet somehow they always have a voice.
Those people don't even have to walk away they just turn their backs.
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[QUOTE=powerpax;4650172]Walking away from what exactly? Dying a lot after doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result?[/QUOTE]
Why do you assume that walking away is necessarily a bad thing? Sometimes one must walk away, at least for a time, for exactly the reasons you mention.
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[QUOTE=jwatson;4650181]It always amazes me too. Especially when it's the voices of those who say All lives Matter but don't actually stand up or get out for All lives. Or those who aren't targetted by the police telling those who are to respect the cops while actually offering nothing else but a "it's not everybody." I actually have respect for women like Heather Heyer who put her money where her mouth was. I don't really have much for people who drone direct what should be right but can say so since it comes at no cost to them. But yet somehow they always have a voice.
Those people don't even have to walk away they just turn their backs.[/QUOTE]
That is very well said.
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[QUOTE=Glio;4650155]Xavier had easy dreams of utopian ideals when he was a white millionaire with no visible mutations. Magneto had easy talk about superiority and direct violence when he had the power of a god.
None of them offered solutions for the mutant Average Joe.[/QUOTE]
Very good observation. That's really what draws me to this story...with both of these approaches discredited, what are the other possible responses? How will they play out. Keeps me reading.
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[QUOTE=JTFSXX;4650193]Very good observation. That's really what draws me to this story...with both of these approaches discredited, what are the other possible responses? How will they play out. Keeps me reading.[/QUOTE]
Some characters like Cyclops in Utopia and now Krakoa seem to offer an intermediate path.
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[QUOTE=Glio;4650213]Some characters like Cyclops in Utopia and now Krakoa seem to offer an intermediate path.[/QUOTE]
Yes! I think that this is why I am drawn to Cyclops as a character...he seems to be the embodiment of this struggle to stay connected to the original vision but deeply aware of its limitations in the real world.
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There have been so many arcs called stuff like Dream’s End, Death Of The Dream and so on - maybe it finally took this time.