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[QUOTE=Purplevit;5326707]Of course X-Men or team name sells better then Cyke, Jean, Kitty or Rogue names. It is the main reason why Cyclops solo one shot was called "X-Men: Marvels Snapshot".
Everything with X-Men name sells better.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, the interest is for a team and not for solo books, except for Wolverine
[QUOTE=Killerbee911;5328193]Not always Marvel and DC are a wider businesses, Sometimes comics is the secondary thing or sometimes that book represents them trying to grow customer base or market.
Something like Captian Marvel was a calculated attempt to grow the women's market and to create a female character who can be used flagship/elite character to promote Marvel interests.You think Shang chi has movie and comic because of "demand "? Marvel badly wants a stronger foothold in Asia.
All I am saying in the world of comics sometimes the first or even second approach doesn't work. And Marvel has vested interest in making them work regardless of sales a great example of this is "Champions".[/QUOTE]
But sales, interest and demand will still affect the longevity of the character. You can push a character on the customer base as much as you want but if you're getting diminishing returns there's no point to keep the product around.
I think one of the things that works in Wolverine's favor over many other characters is that his solo adventures aren't just X-men stories. Wolverine's stuff takes him away from the team and let's him do his own thing. In many cases, when other characters get a solo or a limited, they're still doing X-men things with other X-men characters.
[QUOTE=Triniking1234;5329126]But sales, interest and demand will still affect the longevity of the character. You can push a character on the customer base as much as you want but if you're getting diminishing returns there's no point to keep the product around.[/QUOTE]
I did mention the part about wider businesses, You are okay with Punisher or Dr Strange flopping because you can put out a movie with him, have merchandising with them and when the movie comes out those same "flopped" books the graphic novel/trades do slightly better to very well in sales. You are fine with Ms Marvel flopping because you can use her other formats and attract that audience. I am not saying they can any character make them successful yes you do need a level of popularity but they are other factors involved in decisions and it is not just comic sales.
If you put Hickman and Pepe larraz on Cyclops it will sell, If you put R.B Silva and Al Ewing on Cyclops it will sell. You put Morrison and Dauterman and Cyclops it will sell. And some point the market is trained to believe Cyclops a character that already has popularity is capable of good stories. You guys can disagree but they literally did it with Captain Marvel
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And they did not even have to put the type of talent I am talking about, They just kept relaunching and kept the book around until it found its audience.They are about a select group of about 5 to 10 X-men characters who could keep a solo book in the range of what is the norm of the market if Marvel cared to cultivate them. Meaning they can do what Iron Man, Black Panther, Hulk, Thor, Aquaman, Green Arrow can do which is fall to cancelation numbers with a bad creative team and keep steady book somewhere in the top 100 books with a good creative team. Wolverine is an anomaly comparing any character to him is wrong he is a top 5 comic character one of few characters capable of carrying multiple books on the market.
Stuff like Ironman, Black Panther, Hulk, or Dr. Strange, Iron Fist, Blade, Punisher is better comparisons. And Cable, X-23, Gambit fall into that latter category of characters. Ironically we don't consider Deadpool an X-character even though that were book started from X-books and is probably one of the more successful solo characters in the modern era. I don't think they are a lot of them but they are a group of X-characters who could perform within the norms of what solo books do today.
On the one hand, I see some X-Men as primarily team characters (Cyclops, Jean, Colossus) while others feel more solo-friendly (Cable, Bishop, Gambit).
But then I think of the same criteria for other characters, and the Thing, Captain America and Iron Fist, to name three examples, I feel are more team-characters, and yet have proven perfectly capable of solo careers, so, really, *any* X-character *should* be able to sustain a solo, with the right stories and writer.
If Captain America, who is basically the Avengers version of Cyclops, can function as a solo hero (and have his own book), then Cyclops should be able to as well.
Solo adventures! Not just for broody loners!
So maybe so more visuals will help my point And this what I mean within the norms of the market. If you are measuring off Wolverine nobody is successful. If you are looking at the whole market what happens to characters not named Wolverine, Spiderman, Batman and Superman it is different case. Books get canceled and restarted quite a bit. Nobody will say Aquaman is not solo character, Aquaman has had runs that prove he can be solo character but Aquaman also has stretches that look like X-men solo character runs.
[B]Aquaman[/B]
Aquaman 1962-1978
[B]Aquaman 1986
Aquaman 1989
Aquaman 1991-1992[/B]
Aquaman 1994- 2001
Aquaman 2003- 2006
Aquaman 2011- 2016
Aquaman 2016-2020
[B]Captain Marvel[/B]
Captain Marvel 2012-2013
Captain Marvel 2014-2015
Life of Captian Marvel 2018
Captain Marvel 2019-Present
[B]Iron Fist[/B]
Iron Fist 1975-1977
Power Man and Iron fist 1978-1986
immortal Iron Fist 2006-2009
Iron Fist 2017-2018
[B]The Punisher[/B]
Punisher 1986
Punisher 1987-1997
Punisher 2004-2009
Punisher 2011-2013
Punisher 2014-2015
Punisher 2016-2017
Punisher 2017-2018
Punisher 2018-2019
[B]Dr Strange[/B]
Dr Strange 1968-1969
Dr Strange 1974-1987
Dr Strange, Sorcerer Supreme 1988-1996
Dr Strange 2015-2017
Dr Stange 2017-2018
Dr Strange 2018-2019
Dr Strange, Surgeon Supreme 2019-2020
[B]Gambit[/B]
Gambit 1993
Gambit and the Externals 1995
Gambit 1999-2001
Gambit 2004-2005
Gambit 2012-2013
Gambit V Deadpool 2016
Mr. & Mrs X 2018-2019
[B]
Cable[/B]
Cable 1993-2002
Cable 2008-2011
Cable 2017-2018
Cable and Deadpool 2004-2008
Cable and X-force 2012-2014
Cable& X-force 2013- 2019
Cable 2020- Present
[B]
Bishop[/B]( Miniseries)
Gambit and Bishop/Alpha/Genesis: 2001
Bishop 1994-1995
Bishop XSE 1998
Bishop: The last X-man 1999-2001
District X 2004-2005
X-men: The Times & Life of Lucas Bishop 2009
Prisoner X 2019
I love Gambit, Bishop, and Cable but there isn't a person who will tell you that they are the most popular X-men characters. People are going to say Storm and Cyclops can't hold a solo while Marvel is out here restarting Punisher every year. Why do Cyclops and Storm have one attempt while a bunch of characters as you can see get multiple shots at solos. If it was sales shouldn't they have quit with a bunch of other characters as well?
[QUOTE=Sutekh;5331021]
If Captain America, who is basically the Avengers version of Cyclops, can function as a solo hero (and have his own book), then Cyclops should be able to as well.
[/QUOTE]
Steve had solo adventures since 1940s if I recall. They have been cliched and rehashed over these years and the only notable run for most people was Brubaker IMO. That too half of the run wasn't centered around Steve. Cyclops is cohesive around teams and there is a chance it could just be failure if he goes solo all of a sudden. People are way above their head thinking solo are always good for characters. Even for Wolverine.
X-Men isn't a stealth solo and most of the issues for X-Men aren't centered around Cyclops. Except for Shi'r including Vulcan issues. Although X-Men fighting against Sh'ir seems more feasible than Cyclops fight against Shi'r. I hardly see Cyclops having his own vendetta.
[QUOTE=Vishop;5331092]Cyclops is cohesive around teams and there is a chance it could just be failure if he goes solo all of a sudden. People are way above their head thinking solo are always good for characters.
.[/QUOTE]
Now I can live with that explanation, It is a fair point that maybe solo aren't good for every character. I think I even mention that I believe that many of X-men are fundamentally flawed and it is bit harder to do solo with some of them. But I think there is a big difference in saying this character unable to keep a solo and maybe the character is better in a team setting. If someone said Cyclops is better in a team setting I have no problem with that Cyclop's best trait is leadership and obviously, if he is by himself he can't use his best trait/skill.
[QUOTE=Killerbee911;5331055]So maybe so more visuals will help my point And this what I mean within the norms of the market. If you are measuring off Wolverine nobody is successful. If you are looking at the whole market what happens to characters not named Wolverine, Spiderman, Batman and Superman it is different case. Books get canceled and restarted quite a bit. Nobody will say Aquaman is not solo character, Aquaman has had runs that prove he can be solo character but Aquaman also has stretches that look like X-men solo character runs.
[B]Aquaman[/B]
Aquaman 1962-1978
[B]Aquaman 1986
Aquaman 1989
Aquaman 1991-1992[/B]
Aquaman 1994- 2001
Aquaman 2003- 2006
Aquaman 2011- 2016
Aquaman 2016-2020
[B]Captain Marvel[/B]
Captain Marvel 2012-2013
Captain Marvel 2014-2015
Life of Captian Marvel 2018
Captain Marvel 2019-Present
[B]Iron Fist[/B]
Iron Fist 1975-1977
Power Man and Iron fist 1978-1986
immortal Iron Fist 2006-2009
Iron Fist 2017-2018
[B]The Punisher[/B]
Punisher 1986
Punisher 1987-1997
Punisher 2004-2009
Punisher 2011-2013
Punisher 2014-2015
Punisher 2016-2017
Punisher 2017-2018
Punisher 2018-2019
[B]Dr Strange[/B]
Dr Strange 1968-1969
Dr Strange 1974-1987
Dr Strange, Sorcerer Supreme 1988-1996
Dr Strange 2015-2017
Dr Stange 2017-2018
Dr Strange 2018-2019
Dr Strange, Surgeon Supreme 2019-2020
[B]Gambit[/B]
Gambit 1993
Gambit and the Externals 1995
Gambit 1999-2001
Gambit 2004-2005
Gambit 2012-2013
Gambit V Deadpool 2016
Mr. & Mrs X 2018-2019
[B]
Cable[/B]
Cable 1993-2002
Cable 2008-2011
Cable 2017-2018
Cable and Deadpool 2004-2008
Cable and X-force 2012-2014
Cable& X-force 2013- 2019
Cable 2020- Present
[B]
Bishop[/B]( Miniseries)
Gambit and Bishop/Alpha/Genesis: 2001
Bishop 1994-1995
Bishop XSE 1998
Bishop: The last X-man 1999-2001
District X 2004-2005
X-men: The Times & Life of Lucas Bishop 2009
Prisoner X 2019
I love Gambit, Bishop, and Cable but there isn't a person who will tell you that they are the most popular X-men characters. People are going to say Storm and Cyclops can't hold a solo while Marvel is out here restarting Punisher every year. Why do Cyclops and Storm have one attempt while a bunch of characters as you can see get multiple shots at solos. If it was sales shouldn't they have quit with a bunch of other characters as well?[/QUOTE]
Not all Gambit series listed and yes. He was among the most popular X-Men when Marvel gave him solo series from 90s to 2000s. He was as popular as Wolverine back then and more poular then Strom or Cyke. Alonso arrived at Marvel and canceled Gambit 1999 because there were too many X-Men books, not because of sales. At this time Gambit book still was outselling Deadpool, Hulk and Black Widow books that didn't get cancelled.
Now he has his villains galleries and new solo mini or orngoing won't fell like out of nowhere. He has stories to tell otside of X-Men or team books. Fabian Nicieza always are telling that for him Gambit is more interesting when he is outside of X-Men work. But I am sure that Fabian is in minority among Marvel writers because current editors or writers never even read Remy's solo books.
[QUOTE=Killerbee911;5331055]So maybe so more visuals will help my point And this what I mean within the norms of the market. If you are measuring off Wolverine nobody is successful. If you are looking at the whole market what happens to characters not named Wolverine, Spiderman, Batman and Superman it is different case. Books get canceled and restarted quite a bit. Nobody will say Aquaman is not solo character, Aquaman has had runs that prove he can be solo character but Aquaman also has stretches that look like X-men solo character runs.
[B]Aquaman[/B]
Aquaman 1962-1978
[B]Aquaman 1986
Aquaman 1989
Aquaman 1991-1992[/B]
Aquaman 1994- 2001
Aquaman 2003- 2006
Aquaman 2011- 2016
Aquaman 2016-2020
[B]Captain Marvel[/B]
Captain Marvel 2012-2013
Captain Marvel 2014-2015
Life of Captian Marvel 2018
Captain Marvel 2019-Present
[B]Iron Fist[/B]
Iron Fist 1975-1977
Power Man and Iron fist 1978-1986
immortal Iron Fist 2006-2009
Iron Fist 2017-2018
[B]The Punisher[/B]
Punisher 1986
Punisher 1987-1997
Punisher 2004-2009
Punisher 2011-2013
Punisher 2014-2015
Punisher 2016-2017
Punisher 2017-2018
Punisher 2018-2019
[B]Dr Strange[/B]
Dr Strange 1968-1969
Dr Strange 1974-1987
Dr Strange, Sorcerer Supreme 1988-1996
Dr Strange 2015-2017
Dr Stange 2017-2018
Dr Strange 2018-2019
Dr Strange, Surgeon Supreme 2019-2020
[B]Gambit[/B]
Gambit 1993
Gambit and the Externals 1995
Gambit 1999-2001
Gambit 2004-2005
Gambit 2012-2013
Gambit V Deadpool 2016
Mr. & Mrs X 2018-2019
[B]
Cable[/B]
Cable 1993-2002
Cable 2008-2011
Cable 2017-2018
Cable and Deadpool 2004-2008
Cable and X-force 2012-2014
Cable& X-force 2013- 2019
Cable 2020- Present
[B]
Bishop[/B]( Miniseries)
Gambit and Bishop/Alpha/Genesis: 2001
Bishop 1994-1995
Bishop XSE 1998
Bishop: The last X-man 1999-2001
District X 2004-2005
X-men: The Times & Life of Lucas Bishop 2009
Prisoner X 2019
I love Gambit, Bishop, and Cable but there isn't a person who will tell you that they are the most popular X-men characters. People are going to say Storm and Cyclops can't hold a solo while Marvel is out here restarting Punisher every year. Why do Cyclops and Storm have one attempt while a bunch of characters as you can see get multiple shots at solos. If it was sales shouldn't they have quit with a bunch of other characters as well?[/QUOTE]
Bishop, Gambit and Cable were some of the most popular characters on 90s.
[QUOTE=Vishop;5331092]Steve had solo adventures since 1940s if I recall. They have been cliched and rehashed over these years and the only notable run for most people was Brubaker IMO. That too half of the run wasn't centered around Steve. Cyclops is cohesive around teams and there is a chance it could just be failure if he goes solo all of a sudden. People are way above their head thinking solo are always good for characters. Even for Wolverine.
X-Men isn't a stealth solo and most of the issues for X-Men aren't centered around Cyclops. Except for Shi'r including Vulcan issues. Although X-Men fighting against Sh'ir seems more feasible than Cyclops fight against Shi'r. I hardly see Cyclops having his own vendetta.[/QUOTE]
Captain America has nothing to do with Cyclops hahah Steve has been the base of Marvel comics, even before the company was called Timely Comics.
gruenwald was Classic Captain America.
[QUOTE=Killerbee911;5331055]
I love Gambit, Bishop, and Cable but there isn't a person who will tell you that they are the most popular X-men characters. People are going to say Storm and Cyclops can't hold a solo while Marvel is out here restarting Punisher every year. Why do Cyclops and Storm have one attempt while a bunch of characters as you can see get multiple shots at solos. If it was sales shouldn't they have quit with a bunch of other characters as well?[/QUOTE]
Some of that falls on projects outside comics.
Carol also has adventures as Ms Marvel-that you left out.
Once she got that movie-it was more of build up material with her as CM for the trades. Because she had nothing at the time that movie was greenlighted.
Some of that falls on writers.
What has Storm done under the X-banner aside cheapshotting Black Panther and being FFD with Kitty, Jean & Emma?
Now what book has done her "decent" Black Panther (ESPECIALLY COATES ERA) or X-books?
If I was to judge her under the last 21 years of X-Office-I would have ZERO interest in pitching a book for her.
Judge under Black Panther? I got her as Queen of Wakanda or Goddess of something or rather. At least I got a pitch.
Now do the same for many of the X-Men-can't do it. Or can't do it under the X-banner.
Prodigy in college and working like he was in Young Avengers and America?
SUnspot running a company and leading a branch of Avengers.
[QUOTE=Killerbee911;5330920]I did mention the part about wider businesses, You are okay with Punisher or Dr Strange flopping because you can put out a movie with him, have merchandising with them and when the movie comes out those same "flopped" books the graphic novel/trades do slightly better to very well in sales. You are fine with Ms Marvel flopping because you can use her other formats and attract that audience. I am not saying they can any character make them successful yes you do need a level of popularity but they are other factors involved in decisions and it is not just comic sales.
If you put Hickman and Pepe larraz on Cyclops it will sell, If you put R.B Silva and Al Ewing on Cyclops it will sell. You put Morrison and Dauterman and Cyclops it will sell. And some point the market is trained to believe Cyclops a character that already has popularity is capable of good stories. You guys can disagree but they literally did it with Captain Marvel
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And they did not even have to put the type of talent I am talking about, They just kept relaunching and kept the book around until it found its audience.They are about a select group of about 5 to 10 X-men characters who could keep a solo book in the range of what is the norm of the market if Marvel cared to cultivate them. Meaning they can do what Iron Man, Black Panther, Hulk, Thor, Aquaman, Green Arrow can do which is fall to cancelation numbers with a bad creative team and keep steady book somewhere in the top 100 books with a good creative team. Wolverine is an anomaly comparing any character to him is wrong he is a top 5 comic character one of few characters capable of carrying multiple books on the market.
Stuff like Ironman, Black Panther, Hulk, or Dr. Strange, Iron Fist, Blade, Punisher is better comparisons. And Cable, X-23, Gambit fall into that latter category of characters. Ironically we don't consider Deadpool an X-character even though that were book started from X-books and is probably one of the more successful solo characters in the modern era. I don't think they are a lot of them but they are a group of X-characters who could perform within the norms of what solo books do today.[/QUOTE]
Funny enough, I remember Cable being a pretty big seller back in the day. Like, top 20 big.
But you're point is 100%, characters like Deadpool and Captain Marvel were re-launched, re-launched and re-launched until they found an audience.
[QUOTE=Rang10;5331452]Bishop, Gambit and Cable were some of the most popular characters on 90s.
Captain America has nothing to do with Cyclops hahah Steve has been the base of Marvel comics, even before the company was called Timely Comics.
gruenwald was Classic Captain America.[/QUOTE]
The Gruenwald era was hands down my favorite Captain America era.
[QUOTE=sunofdarkchild;5323108]Most of these characters were designed for a team book. The X-Men are different from the Justice League or Avengers that way. Cyclops is a team leader. He only works in that context. [B]Put him in a solo and you take away what makes him tick and all you're left with is a guy who shoots lasers out his eyes with no ability to function on his own[/B]. It's the same with many other characters. It's also a big part of why they keep putting the New Mutants back together. Even the characters who have broken out like Sam and Roberto didn't do so on their own but as part of another team book. With the exception of Magik none of those characters could carry a solo.[/QUOTE]
Just think what someone like Tom King, Al Ewing or Christopher Priest could do with this concept. Cyclops have always been part of a team, most of the times as leader, but he always had someone to watch his back. He always fought for the mutant cause, his focus was always the X-Men, his family and the mutant cause.
A good writer could make a great solo run based on ripping those things away from Cyclops, puting the character away from his support system. From there we just have regular superhero adventures.
[QUOTE=Ra-El;5331688]Just think what someone like Tom King, Al Ewing or Christopher Priest could do with this concept. Cyclops have always been part of a team, most of the times as leader, but he always had someone to watch his back. He always fought for the mutant cause, his focus was always the X-Men, his family and the mutant cause.
A good writer could make a great solo run based on ripping those things away from Cyclops, puting the character away from his support system. From there we just have regular superhero adventures.[/QUOTE]
Those elements are mainly team focused rather than his own vendetta or purpose. Taking away those things just means taking away his character.