Do you have a problem with retroactive diversity for DC's heroes?

[QUOTE=Adekis;3160025]The most obvious adaptation of Aquaman in non-comic media, at least to me, is the one from "The Brave and the Bold", so I think of Aquaman as a boisterous character anyway. It makes perfect sense to take that "outrageous" character and make him a little rougher around the edges, and then shazam! You've got Jason Momoa. It's honestly never occurred to me to think it's a problem that he's not white and blonde, but whatever.

But what do I know, I've wanted them to make Superman bisexual for years, and I [i]know[/i] that idea has enemies.[/QUOTE]

Oh yeah, I forgot all about that cartoon.

Yeah, Outrageous cartoon Aquaman seems like an obvious entry for Aquamoa.

I don't have so much a problem with retroactive diversity I have more of a problem with DC having characters who are diverse already but they do nothing with and instead make a new character.For example, if DC wanted a young African American flash charcter Barry Allen has another grandchild besides Bart, XS is a young African American, female speedster DC easily could have used if they wanted more diversity but they retool another character and just overcomplicated things. DC has plenty of diverse characters they just don't use them effectively.

Just to play devil's advocate here.......

DC has a lot of diverse characters with a deep history, like Black Lightning and Vixen and Steel and lots of others. And most of them have had solo titles in the past and those titles didn't sell. Most of them have been on team books that didn't perform.

Yes, generally the reason for those books failing is due to a poor creative team, or maybe bad marketing. DC is at fault here, absolutely. But lots of characters have suffered bad creative teams and poor marketing and still sold, or at least retained enough popularity to make using them viable. So while the blame here might be on DC, they likely don't see it that way and the accounting sheets back them up.

When a character has failed to generate revenue on several occasions, why should DC take another risk with them?

[QUOTE=Ascended;3160313]Just to play devil's advocate here.......

DC has a lot of diverse characters with a deep history, like Black Lightning and Vixen and Steel and lots of others. And most of them have had solo titles in the past and those titles didn't sell. Most of them have been on team books that didn't perform.

Yes, generally the reason for those books failing is due to a poor creative team, or maybe bad marketing. DC is at fault here, absolutely. But lots of characters have suffered bad creative teams and poor marketing and still sold, or at least retained enough popularity to make using them viable. So while the blame here might be on DC, they likely don't see it that way and the accounting sheets back them up.

When a character has failed to generate revenue on several occasions, why should DC take another risk with them?[/QUOTE]

I can see that as a point for some characters, take Static for example many people want a Static book and they will finally get one soon. Everytime DC used the Milestone characters they had to pay a little royalty, which is why they tend not to use them much. DC would just use them enough to keep the rights, which is why Static is in Geoff Johns Teen Titans for a minute. DC has to make a cost benifit analysis on if it is worth it for a Milestone character to have their own book.

I think there are some characters the run as to be out of gate great for it to sell, like Mister Miracle for example. That is not a character you would think would sell as well as he has. But word of mouth sells it.

But then you have a character like Cassandra Cain if you spun her off into her own book I think it would sell because of her previous runs and those fans coming back, also fans of her in Detective would show up. I think with a character who is not part of one DC's major families you have to make more of an effort because people are going to stick with what they know. If they like Superman and Batman, and their spun off characters and they are reliable good reads each time they are not going to take a chance on a Vixen book unless they know its going to be great.

I think in Mister Miracle's case it's all about the creative team's name recognition and the promise of doing something new with the property. After the cult-hit sensation that was King's Vision title, and the off-kilter approach to Miracle, that was all hype. And because the book is f**king amazing and worthy of its own hype, it'll likely continue to sell strong.

Cassandra Cain? I don't know how well she'd sell. Batgirl fans have several titles to get their Gotham-female-hero fix from, including Birds of Prey, Batgirl, Batwoman, and Detective (can I include Gotham Academy here too?). Cass has failed to hold down a sustained solo title on at least two occasions. History is not on her side. But with a popular creative team and/or hook? Absolutely she'd sell well, just like Miracle is right now.

But DC is gonna look at Cass and say she's had a couple chances to succeed, and she hasn't. And they'll point to other properties like the Suicide Squad or Harley Quinn to prove that its not their fault she can't keep a book.

And while I wouldn't agree with their assessment....I do have to wonder, if it takes a revolutionary approach with a big-name creator to keep characters like Miracle and Cass selling....is it actually worth the effort? Wouldn't it be better to give those characters the occasional mini when a creator comes along with a story worth telling, as opposed to trying to keep a monthly alive?

[QUOTE=Aahz;3159660]He is imo one of these cases where you suspect that he is mixed but aren't complety sure.
[/QUOTE]Maybe but i was sure or sure enough when i first saw him in stargate Atlantis.
[QUOTE]
At least the Conan he played was supposed to be white, every one else on his tribe was played by white actors including the younger version of him self.
[/QUOTE]

It's hard to say if the character he was playing is suppose to be white or not.
It kinda like one of those lana lang situations from the smallville show but not completely since they never show his mother in the conan movie from what i remember.
It's kinda like Jessica alba sue storm situation from the fantastic four rise of the silver surfer movie but not completely either as well.

Maybe his character was still not white since his mother was not shown or it could be one of those things where one of his ancestors in the movie was maybe not white(but not shown) and the phenotype skip his parents.This has been known to happen or when he grown up he looks more like a person of color.

Look at two of the youngest oj simpson's kids.
They both looked like brown looking types when they were young but when they grew up they started looking more black or black.
In south africa for example both white parents had a black baby girl.
Anyway there are certain folks who could pass for white or have a intermediate look when i think about it.Camera tricks,makeup etc.. could help with that.
Look at one of the latina actresses in the runaway show or the actress who is the pink ranger in the new power rangers movie now is playing a brown type in the aladdin movie
There is just some folks who could go either way racially so maybe jason could pass for white in certain situations and other situations or roles etc.. not pass when i think about it.
That's why i you could say jason is near white looking in real life.

[QUOTE=reni344;3160357]I can see that as a point for some characters, take Static for example many people want a Static book and they will finally get one soon. Everytime DC used the Milestone characters they had to pay a little royalty, which is why they tend not to use them much. DC would just use them enough to keep the rights, which is why Static is in Geoff Johns Teen Titans for a minute. DC has to make a cost benifit analysis on if it is worth it for a Milestone character to have their own book.

I think there are some characters the run as to be out of gate great for it to sell, like Mister Miracle for example. That is not a character you would think would sell as well as he has. But word of mouth sells it.

But then you have a character like Cassandra Cain if you spun her off into her own book I think it would sell because of her previous runs and those fans coming back, also fans of her in Detective would show up. I think with a character who is not part of one DC's major families you have to make more of an effort because people are going to stick with what they know. If they like Superman and Batman, and their spun off characters and they are reliable good reads each time they are not going to take a chance on a Vixen book unless they know its going to be great.[/QUOTE]

1 cost benefit is Static in that book mean you have a REAL fan favorite in there versus folks like Bombshell. It's not Milestone's fault Dc has to pay to use Static and folks WANT him. If you don't want to PAY-terminate the contract and accept whatever consequences that brings. Be it Static at IDW, Marvel or Image.

Or better yet invest in the blacks who you OWN-something at times they act like they can't do.

Not the fans fault DC has to pay. Static's usage can not be that high. I am sure he's cheaper than tossing out doomed books like Ravengers, Doomed, Cyborg and many other failed books.

2 Cassandra Cain had a solo that lasted 72 issues. That was the longest running Batgirl run. It is the longest running minority female title among DC & Marvel. Fans FOUGHT to get her back and without the antics of the Marvel complainers.

One can't say no to guys like Static, Cassandra, Kyle, Steel and others when they PROVED they can sell or be popular. Especially if they had a tv show.

Especially when you gave shots to Cyborg-Dc's worst seller. Folks are sending a message that no matter what team you toss him on or token him in movie-Folks still wanted Static. Folks still want Vixen to get a shot. Folks fought DC management for Cassandra Cain.

[QUOTE=Ascended;3160712]
Cassandra Cain? I don't know how well she'd sell. Batgirl fans have several titles to get their Gotham-female-hero fix from, including Birds of Prey, Batgirl, Batwoman, and Detective (can I include Gotham Academy here too?). [B]Cass has failed to hold down a sustained solo title on at least two occasions. History is not on her side. But with a popular creative team and/or hook? Absolutely she'd sell well, just like Miracle is right now. But DC is gonna look at Cass and say she's had a couple chances to succeed, and she hasn't.[/B] [/QUOTE]

I thought this was common knowledge by now, but apparently, it isn't. Cass's first solo lasted 73 issues and it was NOT cancelled for low sales. There is factual proof of this. A) Her book was outselling several titles which [I]weren't[/I] cancelled, B) Her book's sales were actually [I]rising[/I] (Her final issue, [B]73[/B], sold over 26,500) C) We KNOW several members of DC editorial didn't and still don't care for her, and D) The colorist for the final issue of her book flat out SAID that Batgirl Vol. 1 was cancelled because there was a Batwoman book planned, and the idiots at editorial didn't think Gotham could sustain more than 1 female lead title.

And for Vol. 2, it was a mini. Now yes, that mini sold poorly, but WHO was the writer? Oh yeah, Adam Beechen. It's ALMOST like when you take the guy synonyms with destroying Cass's character and announce that he'll be writing a book about her, people aren't going to buy it. What a shocker.

Cassandra Cain has the longest running solo title of any female minority at DC, and if you don't count Retconned Latino Kyle Rayner, she has had the most solo issues of any DC minority PERIOD.

And to this day, while not what it once was, her fanbase remains large and passionate, with even newer fans being added by Detective and the release of the fat trades.

Please do try not making up history in the future.

PS. Also, it's not a matter of multiple female lead books. That's the same idiotic outlook DC had that got Cass's book canned. They are all distinct characters from one another. Or do you think there should only ever be 4 male lead Gotham hero books?

[QUOTE=skyvolt2000;3160915]1 cost benefit is Static in that book mean you have a REAL fan favorite in there versus folks like Bombshell. It's not Milestone's fault Dc has to pay to use Static and folks WANT him. If you don't want to PAY-terminate the contract and accept whatever consequences that brings. Be it Static at IDW, Marvel or Image.

Or better yet invest in the blacks who you OWN-something at times they act like they can't do.

Not the fans fault DC has to pay. Static's usage can not be that high. I am sure he's cheaper than tossing out doomed books like Ravengers, Doomed, Cyborg and many other failed books.

2 Cassandra Cain had a solo that lasted 72 issues. That was the longest running Batgirl run. It is the longest running minority female title among DC & Marvel. Fans FOUGHT to get her back and without the antics of the Marvel complainers.

One can't say no to guys like Static, Cassandra, Kyle, Steel and others when they PROVED they can sell or be popular. Especially if they had a tv show.

Especially when you gave shots to Cyborg-Dc's worst seller. Folks are sending a message that no matter what team you toss him on or token him in movie-Folks still wanted Static. Folks still want Vixen to get a shot. Folks fought DC management for Cassandra Cain.[/QUOTE]

When answering this question I answered not from a fans perspective from DC's perspective and at the end of the day they have to weigh fan wants vs monetary gain and make a cost benfit analysis, there are people who want a Static book it is a matter of DC having to pay royalties every time to use him. They then have to decide is it worth it monetarly even if people want the book.

I did not say it was the fans fault I was merly pointing out why DC in the past has not put out that book. Cassandra Cain and Kyle and Steel are part of bigger franchises in DC. I said in my argument characters like that have better chance of selling because they are tied to larger franchises. Vixen and Cyborg are not, it is a harder sell to those readers outside of those already established fanbases.

We don't know how much the royalties are for Milestones characters DC may not want to pay them, but they are still going to hold on to the rights so they could use him in things outside the comics. And to be fair Static did have a book during the Nu52 but it sucked and no one bought it. Once again bringing up my point that word of mouth and critical acclaim are important when selling titles of characters who are not tied to larger properties.

[QUOTE=Assam;3160954]I thought this was common knowledge by now, but apparently, it isn't.[/QUOTE]

No, it isnt. I was misinformed concerning the details of Cass' first series coming to a close. Or perhaps I knew all this at one point and forgot it. Either way, Cass wasn't the best example. Thank you for giving me the correct information here, I shall endeavor to retain it and not make the same mistake again. However, your tone is unappreciated.

And aside from showing that we were using a poor example, nothing you said here even touched on the point we were actually discussing.

[QUOTE]Please do try not making up history in the future. [/QUOTE]

This. For real? "Making up history?" Christ dude, I got some details wrong about a book that ended a decade ago if not longer. Lighten up.

[QUOTE=Ascended;3161044]
This. For real? "Making up history?" Christ dude, I got some details wrong about a book that ended a decade ago if not longer. Lighten up.[/QUOTE]

Apologies for my tone. In a bad mood and stressed atm.

[QUOTE=Assam;3161065]Apologies for my tone. In a bad mood and stressed atm.[/QUOTE]

Apology accepted. And Im sorry you're having a bad day (or night, or whatever it is you're having). Hope it improves for you soon.

[QUOTE=reni344;3161037]
We don't know how much the royalties are for Milestones characters DC may not want to pay them, but they are still going to hold on to the rights so they could use him in things outside the comics. And to be fair Static did have a book during the Nu52 but it sucked and no one bought it. Once again bringing up my point that word of mouth and critical acclaim are important when selling titles of characters who are not tied to larger properties.[/QUOTE]

Don't forget there's also the benefit of keeping the Static IP under wraps so it can't be bought by the competition. It might not be worth it for DC to publish the character but they still have an interest in making sure no one else can use it either.

If DC uses Static they have to pay a royalty, whether the book makes money or not.

If DC lets someone else use Static, they're losing potential profit to a rival publisher.

If DC holds onto Static but doesn't use him, they don't lose any money at all.

If you were an accountant, which option would you like best? And keep in mind, this is an IP that wasn't Milestone's biggest seller in the 90's (if I recall correctly) and has had limited larger-media exposure. It's not a guaranteed success if you do publish it.

Sure, you can explain away the poor performance of the New52 series as well as several other negative factors, but you know what CEO's are hearing? Excuses. Reasons not to pursue. Because if it requires high-end, Alpha status creators to be profitable, if it can't survive a few bumps in the road, it's not an IP worth investing it.

Static, and Milestone as a whole, gets a lot of love and hype from the online community. And its all warranted, because gods we love those characters! But we're not an accurate sample of the whole consumer base.

I'm not saying I agree with these statements, Im still just playing devil's advocate (you guys know how excited I am for Milestone 2.0). But that's the kind of stuff characters like Static have to overcome to get anywhere.

[QUOTE=mace11;3160865]It's hard to say if the character he was playing is suppose to be white or not.
It kinda like one of those lana lang situations from the smallville show but not completely since they never show his mother in the conan movie from what i remember.
It's kinda like Jessica alba sue storm situation from the fantastic four rise of the silver surfer movie but not completely either as well.[/QUOTE]And thats what hey could also do with his Aquaman.

[QUOTE=Ascended;3160712]Cassandra Cain? I don't know how well she'd sell. Batgirl fans have several titles to get their Gotham-female-hero fix from, including Birds of Prey, Batgirl, Batwoman, and Detective (can I include Gotham Academy here too?). Cass has failed to hold down a sustained solo title on at least two occasions. History is not on her side. But with a popular creative team and/or hook? Absolutely she'd sell well, just like Miracle is right now. [/QUOTE]I think a bigger problem that she didn't had a regular appearance for so long, that it is hard to say if how much of her former fan base is still around.
Even Tim Drake (who had at least 3 times as many solo issues as Cass) might now not be able anymore to sell an ongoing.

[QUOTE=Ascended;3161084]Sure, you can explain away the poor performance of the New52 series as well as several other negative factors, but you know what CEO's are hearing? Excuses. Reasons not to pursue. Because if it requires high-end, Alpha status creators to be profitable, if it can't survive a few bumps in the road, it's not an IP worth investing it.[/QUOTE]The book sold quite badly right from the start, if the first issue has allready low sales (at least for a first issue) that can't be just because of poor quality.