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[QUOTE=jwatson;4504109]Can we PLEASE stop using actors and entertainers as some barometer for race relationships. People shouldn't have to freaking entertain somebody for them to be accepted. I just feel that is like the worse example to use when it comes to how people are seen based on race relations. And some would argue we are still in 1963. Especially when the best example someone can come up with for decent race relations are entertainers, and politicans which out of 535 only 50 are black. So yeah it hasn't been that long in universe or out of it. But heres hoping things do get better but the only way thats going to work is if people just stop being prejudice about people they know nothing about.
This whole line of thinking is flawed from the ground up. Yeesh.[/QUOTE]
I think I understand what you are saying, and in theory it's right: being prejudiced about people we don't know is wrong, and if the only reason isomeone change his view on race relations is because of entertainers or pop-culture references, it's sad and stupid. But in the real world sadly, it's mostly how it works.
I'm a muslim of Algerian descent who live in France, and I have seen these last twenty years how the rise of Algerian mainstream actors, comics, singers... has changed how we are viewed, even if it doesn't ended racism at all. Like Guy Debord (a french philosopher) said we live in "the society of the spectacle" even if we don't like it. Pop-culture representation will not end racism but it will help a lot: a famous stand-upper who is loved by a large part of the population will do more for race relationships than an academic in the short term. And thats why I liked the X-men run of Morrison: he understood the importance of pop culture and cultural war to win battles. In our modern society, to fight racism you need to win the culture war.
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[QUOTE=Maestroneto;4504239]There are child concentration camps in America, a white supremacist shot up a Walmart to kill as many Latinx people as possible and an arrested black man was paraded through the streets by the police this weekend.
I think the idea that humanity would gladly exterminate mutants if they could not that unbelievable in a 2019 Marvel Universe. Despite them all listening to Dazzler and Lila Cheney music.[/QUOTE]
I think this is correct. The idea and fact that this isn't 1963 anymore is a fair point, but that doesn't mean that it's much better or all that improved; there's no legal segregation anymore and queer people aren't locked away in mad houses just because they exist, that much is true, but that doesn't mean that we still don't have trans women being murdered on the regular just because they are trans women or that we didn't have a black man led down the streets by a lead with two police men on horseback just this weekend, and that we haven't had racially charged shootings, that we don't have a president that used slave terminology to refer to someone that he claimed was a supporter.
Humanity is hypocritical by nature. Just because you enjoy someone in media or follow their politics, and agree with them, and that this person is another race from you - that doesn't mean you're exempt from racism. Just because you listen to Beyoncé does not excuse you when you call a person of color a racist slur.
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[QUOTE=Harpsikord;4504614]I think this is correct. The idea and fact that this isn't 1963 anymore is a fair point, but that doesn't mean that it's much better or all that improved; there's no legal segregation anymore and queer people aren't locked away in mad houses just because they exist, that much is true, but that doesn't mean that we still don't have trans women being murdered on the regular just because they are trans women or that we didn't have a black man led down the streets by a lead with two police men on horseback just this weekend, and that we haven't had racially charged shootings, that we don't have a president that used slave terminology to refer to someone that he claimed was a supporter.
Humanity is hypocritical by nature. Just because you enjoy someone in media or follow their politics, and agree with them, and that this person is another race from you - that doesn't mean you're exempt from racism. [B]Just because you listen to Beyoncé does not excuse you when you call a person of color a racist slur.[/B][/QUOTE]
Yes, Beyonce alone will not end racism. But it's one of the weapon to fight it. Media representation, like politic and education, is an important weapon to fight prejudice and racism. And to get back to the subject, I think that seeing mutants trying to win the culture war, in the 21st century, can be very interesting. Pop-culture is also politic.
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[QUOTE=lordozone;4504623]Yes, Beyonce alone will not end racism. But it's one of the weapon to fight it. Media representation, like politic and education, is an important weapon to fight prejudice and racism.[/QUOTE]
I agree with that, I just don't agree with pretending like just because we have notable people of color, notable gay people, etc in media and politics means that racism or homophobia or bigotry in general is over.
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[QUOTE=Harpsikord;4504629]I agree with that, I just don't agree with pretending like just because we have notable people of color, notable gay people, etc in media and politics means that racism or homophobia or bigotry in general is over.[/QUOTE]
I'm sure no one else in this thread thinks that racism or homophobia or bigotry will end solely because of a few minority stars. I say that I certainly don't, in case that's the conclusion you came to in regards to what I said (as I mentioned that there's still racism in 2019), but as lordzone was getting at, and I'm inclined to agree, culture can be used as a weapon to fight it, as well as politics, and education, and understanding, and care, and concern, and kindness, and just all around effective human acts of decency towards all who are oppressed to add to that. lordzone's idea of mutants trying to win the culture in the 21st century sounded interesting to me as well. This is in additions to politicians, in that the more you can get the positive word/idea out there about minorities to the public in a way that it can lead to less bigotry and more understanding to the point that the would-be bigots end up consistently treating minorities in a decent/good/human matter, then the better, no? And I think that's indeed an interesting idea that could played more with mutants in the future, assuming it's written in a responsible (and preferably interesting) manner of course.
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[QUOTE=Harpsikord;4504629]I agree with that, I just don't agree with pretending like just because we have notable people of color, notable gay people, etc in media and politics means that racism or homophobia or bigotry in general is over.[/QUOTE]
Oh, I totally agree with that ! Racism is on the rise, even if the situation for us minority is better than in the 60's. My "problem" was more with Jwatson when he said that [B]People shouldn't have to freaking entertain somebody for them to be accepted.[/B] I really think that minimizing the importance of culture war and entertainment to fight prejudice in our society is an enormous mistake. If you control politic, media and pop culture, you control everything.
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[QUOTE=lordozone;4504646]Oh, I totally agree with that ! Racism is on the rise, even if the situation for us minority is better than in the 60's. My "problem" was more with Jwatson when he said that [B]People shouldn't have to freaking entertain somebody for them to be accepted.[/B] I really think that minimizing the importance of culture war and entertainment to fight prejudice in our society is an enormous mistake. If you control politic, media and pop culture, you control everything.[/QUOTE]
What's the difference between the republican party saying they will make sure obama is a one term president before he even did anything and then denying him his supreme court picks but not saying boo to Trump who is a cheater, a liar, separating families and they are 100% behind him and supporting him? If you haven't seriously thought about that, the answer to it, and the mere fact that the president of the united states can be treated that way for being a black man. You have no idea what the average person has to go through. So no people shouldn't have to entertain a person under any circumstance for them to feel any kind of way. And it's a bad example to use fake characters or famous people to try to act like relations are being normalized when people turn on those figures instantaneously if they do more than ignore the issue. That's the last thing i'm going to say on this. Because this thread feels more like a finger wag from someone who doesn't want to be reminded the real world exists and it must be nice to pretend all things are equal.
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I would say show the balance of both sides.
Yes mutants will be hated and feared by some humans. But we also need to see those humans who fully support and appreciate mutants for the heroes they are/can be.
And we need to see those human supporters go up against the human haters.
Just as with real world minorities, mutants do (should) have their staunch supporters...we need to see more of them in our comic book stories.
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[QUOTE=jwatson;4504653]What's the difference between the republican party saying they will make sure obama is a one term president before he even did anything and then denying him his supreme court picks but not saying boo to Trump who is a cheater, a liar, separating families and they are 100% behind him and supporting him? If you haven't seriously thought about that, the answer to it, and the mere fact that the president of the united states can be treated that way for being a black man. [B]You have no idea what the average person has to go through[/B]. So no people shouldn't have to entertain a person under any circumstance for them to feel any kind of way. And it's a bad example to use fake characters or famous people to try to act like relations are being normalized when people turn on those figures instantaneously if they do more than ignore the issue. That's the last thing i'm going to say on this. Because this thread feels more like a finger wag from someone who doesn't want to be reminded the real world exists and it must be nice to pretend all things are equal.[/QUOTE]
Hey, like I said I'm a muslim from Algeria who live in France, a country who colonized us, killed a part of my family, and who for the most part don't like us and our religion, I'm not black or American and can't relate to all your problematics, but i understand the struggle from being from a minority and I'm sorry if I seemed dismissive.
I just wanted to debate because It's a topic that I studied and I found it interesting from a storytelling perspective ! Really sorry if you find this thread like a finger wag to you or if you find me aggressive, it was really not my intention, I really just wanted to discuss about the power and limit of pop-culture and how it can be integrated in X-men stories.
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[QUOTE=lordozone;4504693]Hey, like I said I'm a muslim from Algeria who live in France, a country who colonized us, killed a part of my family, and who for the most part don't like us and our religion, I'm not black or American and can't relate to all your problematics, but i understand the struggle from being from a minority and I'm sorry if I seemed dismissive.
I just wanted to debate because It's a topic that I studied and I found it interesting from a storytelling perspective ! Really sorry if you find this thread like a finger wag to you or if you find me aggressive, it was really not my intention, I really just wanted to discuss about the power and limit of pop-culture and how it can be integrated in X-men stories.[/QUOTE]
I didn't think you were being aggressive you were fine i was more directing it towards the thread starter because just the way it is worded lacks any sort of general trying to understand. They obviously are looking for some sort of absolution and to make themselves feel better rather than actually try to discuss the issue itself. ONe of those i want to say what i want to say threads with no meaning or real thought. They could have just left out all the real world stuff and stuck to how mutants are seen in the MU but instead had to preach about something they seem to know little about.
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Speakin of Mutant sympathizers: where are the scientists like Reed that could use the help of mutants for scientific advancements?
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[QUOTE=AJpyro;4504804]Speakin of Mutant sympathizers: where are the scientists like Reed that could use the help of mutants for scientific advancements?[/QUOTE]
Or the non-mutant heroes like Spider-Man and the Hulk who have had similar experiences with being demonized by the media, recurrently (or frequently) hunted by authorities, and treated with suspicion and distrust, if not outright fear and loathing by the general public? Hell, they've both had to deal with robots created for the sole purpose of hunting and capturing (or killing) them, and mad scientists obsessed with exploiting their DNA, not so different from the X-Men. The Hulk is even more similar because he has the entire American military-industrial complex looking to exploit, contain, or flat-out eliminate him, which again isn't so different from what's repeatedly been done to the X-Men and mutants in general.
Come to think of it, with the not-inconsiderable amount of mutants who've become Avengers at one point or another, you'd think the Avengers would speak out more for mutants' rights as well, as they've had firsthand experience fighting beside mutant heroes and know full well that mutants aren't so inherently dangerous or threatening to humans. Even so, as futures like Days of Future Past and present-day story arcs like the original Civil War have shown, they should be supporting mutant rights for at least the cold reality that government authorities could and would just as easily turn on everyone and anyone with powers as opposed to "just mutants." It's basically the point made in Martin Niemoller's lament about how the Nazis kept coming for various disfavored groups and he didn't speak out because he wasn't one of them --- until the Nazis finally came for him and there was no one left to speak out for anyone. After all, what's the meaningful difference between someone who has superpowers because of their latent mutant genes, and someone who gets them in a freak accident involving exotic energies and/or chemicals?
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[QUOTE=jwatson;4504109]Can we PLEASE stop using actors and entertainers as some barometer for race relationships. People shouldn't have to freaking entertain somebody for them to be accepted. I just feel that is like the worse example to use when it comes to how people are seen based on race relations. And some would argue we are still in 1963. Especially when the best example someone can come up with for decent race relations are entertainers, and politicans which out of 535 only 50 are black. So yeah it hasn't been that long in universe or out of it. But heres hoping things do get better but the only way thats going to work is if people just stop being prejudice about people they know nothing about.
This whole line of thinking is flawed from the ground up. Yeesh.[/QUOTE]
A$AP would probably agree that being black but [I]rich and famous[/I] did him no good in Sweden.
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[QUOTE=PrezValentine;4504905]A$AP would probably agree that being black but [I]rich and famous[/I] did him no good in Sweden.[/QUOTE]
I guess i reached a point where personally i don't care anymore. Your told by your momma you have to be better than kinder than smarter than. Your told by other black people not to make waves. YOur told by some white people "well if you do what they ask nothing will happen." Well damn, can i just live and try to be a good person. It's on the prejudiced to wake up and get over it, it's up to the racist to actually hear the message they are getting in the church they pretend to love so much. And to be clear there are good people out there who truly want everyone to be treated fairly and as humans with mututal respect but i am so over this notion that the person who was "born" different has to put on some front or some facade or calm down, or speak softly to make other people feel comfortable.
As far as mutants and the mu i think when it comes to heroes who get their power by accident anyone in the MU feels like it could be them too. Like how people think hey i can be a football star or i can be a singer but being born with something makes it an intrinsic gift from god and people can be envious of that because it's something they can't achieve. If your not born a mutant you can't just become one.
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[QUOTE=jwatson;4504109]Can we PLEASE stop using actors and entertainers as some barometer for race relationships. People shouldn't have to freaking entertain somebody for them to be accepted. I just feel that is like the worse example to use when it comes to how people are seen based on race relations. And some would argue we are still in 1963. Especially when the best example someone can come up with for decent race relations are entertainers, and politicans which out of 535 only 50 are black. So yeah it hasn't been that long in universe or out of it. But heres hoping things do get better but the only way thats going to work is if people just stop being prejudice about people they know nothing about.
This whole line of thinking is flawed from the ground up. Yeesh.[/QUOTE]
But is a barometer for race relationship. It does not show all the problems have gone away but it shows there is an improvement to point where people, in general, can live a most comfortable life. Beyonce isn't a millionaire because black people are buying her stuff. Beyonce is millionaire because white people are buying her stuff . A legit acceptance of minorities as stars and important people is great indiction that "everyone" does not what to see you the enemy.
Mutants/Humans relationships shouldn't be at post-slavery Jim Crow levels of "Black Wall Street" burning down for example. Marvel universe should be clearly past that point and that is what mentioning of actors, entertainers, politicians, and Athletes is about. Marvel is a reflection of this world and we live in a world where a Black Woman is probably the biggest entertainer in the world, Lebron is maybe the biggest athlete in the world, Will Smith is one of biggest actors in the world, The former president was love all around the world. Yes hate and injustice exist but love and acceptance are also around. Yeah, the police might shoot and kill in a traffic stop. But the color of your skin, gender, sexual preference generally doesn't stop for being successful or living a comfortable life.
The easy example of progress is showing the biggest examples. Even today all immigrants aren't being chased out of America, They are people standing up for them. That is what Marvel is missing in its stories the hate is fine but X-men wouldn't have to run away from America because they would be just as much people supporting them.
