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This is one of the things that sours me on the Perez run a bit, but I don't really begrudge the movies for following his take. It lasted about two decades before Jimenez added it back in, and still remains prolific and in print.
But much like Ruckas Year One, the Amazons could live harmoniously with nature and just have non obvious tech that blends in with the environment. Nicola Scott drew an ancient looking island that still had Purple Rays and invisible jet technology.
[QUOTE=Geraldofrivia;3887510]That shield is definitely not made by Amazons and is probably loaned by some gods so that poor brainless Amazons can defend themselves like everything they own.
Also the Amazon weapons are made of special metal not steel.
Also explain how the ancient boat reached from Themyscira to London?
How does Wonder Woman don't know about marriage if she knows all languages and about sex?[/QUOTE]
All the Gods are dead though. So they made the weapons themselves.
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[QUOTE=SiegePerilous02;3887558]This is one of the things that sours me on the Perez run a bit, but I don't really begrudge the movies for following his take. It lasted about two decades before Jimenez added it back in, and still remains prolific and in print.
But much like Ruckas Year One, the Amazons could live harmoniously with nature and just have non obvious tech that blends in with the environment. Nicola Scott drew an ancient looking island that still had Purple Rays and invisible jet technology.
All the Gods are dead though. So they made the weapons themselves.[/QUOTE]
The Gods would have given them during Darkseid invasion and they are probably using them. Unless's the movie shows them making them. My opinion is not going to change .
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[QUOTE=Geraldofrivia;3887510]That shield is definitely not made by Amazons and is probably loaned by some gods so that poor brainless Amazons can defend themselves like everything they own.
Also the Amazon weapons are made of special metal not steel.[/QUOTE]
You are just determined to trash the movie Amazons no matter what, right?
"Special metal" is pretty much equivalent to "metallurgical knowledge and methods that are far beyond those known to us". Especially since the stronger and more resistant a metal or alloy is, the harder it is to work.
And while there can be made an argument that the items that Diana grabs from the tower were made by Haphaestus or some other god, I have a hard time imagining that to be true for Menalippe's shield.
[QUOTE=Geraldofrivia;3887510]Also explain how the ancient boat reached from Themyscira to London?
How does Wonder Woman don't know about marriage if she knows all languages and about sex?[/QUOTE]
It sailed. Boats with less advanced designs than the one depicted managed to cross the North Atlantic—much worse waters—with some regularity. And that boat is not ancient! While the hull from the outside looks sorta similar in broad strokes to Cypriotic ships circa 500 B.C, the rigging looks more like a lateen-rigged caravel, circa 15th century, and it has advanced enough tooling that it can be managed by a crew of two, one of them unfamiliar with the type and likely a not that experienced sailor.
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I don't know how much of the post-Crisis reboot was the idea of Perez and how much came from the other writers, editors and senior management. But artists play to their strengths. H.G. Peter had his own visual style. And George Perez was known for a different aesthetic. He wanted to do a lot of those Greco-Roman architectural features (mixed with M.C. Escher for Olympus), because it suited his artistic approach. Never mind that it didn't make sense, as George was referencing trends in architectural design that came nearly a thousand years after the Amazons were supposed to have left the Peloponnese in the comic book version.
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I wouldn’t mind if the amazons tech would somewhat still match with their ancient design. I would like the amazons go and their own own weapons. That thanks to the island many of their resources are powerful and strong. So the amazons made weapons that can harm gods. The doom gate has been turned into a prison for gods
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[QUOTE=Geraldofrivia;3887621]The Gods would have given them during Darkseid invasion and they are probably using them. Unless's the movie shows them making them. My opinion is not going to change .[/QUOTE]
That's fine, but neither is anyone else's. Unless the movies actually show the Gods handing them weapons, your theory is just speculation. And like kjn says, it seems to be coming from a place of not wanting to give the movie Amazons any credit at all rather than anything concrete on screen.
[QUOTE=kjn;3887633]"Special metal" is pretty much equivalent to "metallurgical knowledge and methods that are far beyond those known to us". Especially since the stronger and more resistant a metal or alloy is, the harder it is to work.[/QUOTE]
Maybe it's the movie version of Amazoniam?
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[QUOTE=SiegePerilous02;3887691]That's fine, but neither is anyone else's. Unless the movies actually show the Gods handing them weapons, your theory is just speculation. And like kjn says, it seems to be coming from a place of not wanting to give the movie Amazons any credit at all rather than anything concrete on screen.
Maybe it's the movie version of Amazoniam?[/QUOTE]
Because Amazons are stuck in 300BC. You guys are speculating just like me.
In the comics their weapons are made by Hephaestus in new 52, Justice League cartoon and Wonder Woman 2009 movie.
In the Ironman movie, they showed Stark making the suit.
Batman begins movie showed where Batman got his gadgets
Black Panther showed Wakanda, Vibranium and technology.
Wonder Woman movie showed Amazons living in old ancient building and Caves and fighting with sword and arrows still stuck in 300 BC.
Diana has not invented anything since the Perez era and in the movie, she doesn't see to be that smart other than able to read multiple languages.( plot device on how Amazons know English)
I would love to be wrong about movie Amazons and Diana and they had the invisible technology all the time but I don't trust DC.
Patty Jenkins treat Amazons like some tribals living in Bronze age than a civilisation. We don't have to speculate if Amazons were shown properly like Wakanda or Asgard
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[QUOTE=Geraldofrivia;3887789]Because Amazons are stuck in 300BC. You guys are speculating just like me.[/QUOTE]
Well yeah, we're all speculating but you are presenting the notion that a God gave them their weapons as if it was fact.
[QUOTE=Geraldofrivia;3887789]In the comics their weapons are made by Hephaestus in new 52, Justice League cartoon and Wonder Woman 2009 movie.[/QUOTE]
Those instances had Hephaestus explicitly mentioned as the source for their weapons, though it's been a while and I do not recall him being mentioned as such in the 2009 movie. But in the film, he is not mentioned as being the source of their everyday weaponry. Therefore, claiming he or any God is the for sure the source of their weapons is baseless speculation.
It should also be noted that Marston had their source of the technology being the Magic Sphere, which was gifted to them by Athena and was not an innovation of their own.
[QUOTE=Geraldofrivia;3887789]Wonder Woman movie showed Amazons living in old ancient building and Caves and fighting with sword and arrows still stuck in 300 BC.[/QUOTE]
They are not living in the caves. Their buildings don't look much different than Year One or Earth One. And even in pre-Crisis comics, they used a lot of swords, shields and arrows when fighting while they had invisible planes and purple rays
[QUOTE=Geraldofrivia;3887789]Diana has not invented anything since the Perez era and in the movie, she doesn't see to be that smart other than able to read multiple languages.( plot device on how Amazons know English)[/QUOTE]
She hasn't really invented anything notable since the Purple Ray in her very first appearance, which is way before Perez.
And the multiple languages is a pretty big thing to dismiss in order to claim that she's not very smart. I wouldn't say that at all, especially as it has lead to her current job as Diana Prince. It's a pretty BIG leap to say that not inventing a miraculous plot-driven device means she's not smart. That must mean comics Diana is dumb as a sack of bricks 99% of the time, which I don't think any of us think.
[QUOTE=Geraldofrivia;3887789]Patty Jenkins treat Amazons like some tribals living in Bronze age than a civilisation. We don't have to speculate if Amazons were shown properly like Wakanda or Asgard[/QUOTE]
Sci-fi tech alone does not make a civilization.
As for showing them properly, that again depends on which source material we are dealing with. I prefer Marston's too, but Perez's is just as valid, and the films are grabbing things from different sources.
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[QUOTE=SiegePerilous02;3887988]Well yeah, we're all speculating but you are presenting the notion that a God gave them their weapons as if it was fact.
Those instances had Hephaestus explicitly mentioned as the source for their weapons, though it's been a while and I do not recall him being mentioned as such in the 2009 movie. But in the film, he is not mentioned as being the source of their everyday weaponry. Therefore, claiming he or any God is the for sure the source of their weapons is baseless speculation.
It should also be noted that Marston had their source of the technology being the Magic Sphere, which was gifted to them by Athena and was not an innovation of their own.
They are not living in the caves. Their buildings don't look much different than Year One or Earth One. And even in pre-Crisis comics, they used a lot of swords, shields and arrows when fighting while they had invisible planes and purple rays
She hasn't really invented anything notable since the Purple Ray in her very first appearance, which is way before Perez.
And the multiple languages is a pretty big thing to dismiss in order to claim that she's not very smart. I wouldn't say that at all, especially as it has lead to her current job as Diana Prince. It's a pretty BIG leap to say that not inventing a miraculous plot-driven device means she's not smart. That must mean comics Diana is dumb as a sack of bricks 99% of the time, which I don't think any of us think.
Sci-fi tech alone does not make a civilization.
As for showing them properly, that again depends on which source material we are dealing with. I prefer Marston's too, but Perez's is just as valid, and the films are grabbing things from different sources.[/QUOTE]
You and I saw the same movie, It was kjn who tried to make up the fact that Amazon made their own weapons. Then I suggested it was loaned by Gods because the movie was inspired by Perez.
In 2009 movie Diana's bracelet is made by Hephaestus. The Amazons making weapons is again not told anywhere in the movie. There is Alexa an Amazon who is shown very intelligent and Academic. The invisible jet origin is not explained.
They use caves in 2017, Go and watch behind the scene footage of a Wonder Woman movie. Patty Jenkins explains how Amazons live as one with nature and do not like making a building that much and instead use caves as living spaces. Amazon bathroom and Diana's bedroom looked like they were inside caves
Diana could not crack the encryption on Lex Luthor data and instead have to give it to Batman to crack. If it was Marston's WW she would have cracked encryption in no time( not a great show of intelligence)
True, Dr Strange, Thor, Atlantis and Harry Potter magical civilisation. The Amazons are pretty rudimentary in their magic. Why don't they have pegasus instead of normal horses? There was barely any magical activity in Themyscira in the movie
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[QUOTE=Geraldofrivia;3888835]You and I saw the same movie, It was kjn who tried to make up the fact that Amazon made their own weapons. Then I suggested it was loaned by Gods because the movie was inspired by Perez.[/QUOTE]
kjn was not making up a fact, they were speculating. Your suggestion that they were loaned by the Gods is also just speculation and made up if there is no backing by anything on screen.
Also in the Perez run, the only item Hephaestus is explicitly shown making is the Golden Lasso. We are also explicitly shown the Amazons constructing their own buildings, making their own art, and creating the machinery to keep Doom'd Doorway sealed. We don't need to be told they make their own weapons in this case because why would they be doing all of that on their own, but not the weapons? Especially when no weapon is specified to to be God-made?
[QUOTE=Geraldofrivia;3888835]In 2009 movie Diana's bracelet is made by Hephaestus. The Amazons making weapons is again not told anywhere in the movie. There is Alexa an Amazon who is shown very intelligent and Academic. The invisible jet origin is not explained.[/QUOTE]
Again, Hephaestus making one thing does not necessarily lead to him making everything. Going back to Marston, we've had Gods give the Amazons items along with the Amazons making their own. Athena gave Hippolyta the Magic Sphere and Aphrodite gave her the Magic Girdle, she did not make either of them on her own.
[QUOTE=Geraldofrivia;3888835]They use caves in 2017, Go and watch behind the scene footage of a Wonder Woman movie. Patty Jenkins explains how Amazons live as one with nature and do not like making a building that much and instead use caves as living spaces. Amazon bathroom and Diana's bedroom looked like they were inside caves[/QUOTE]
I don't need to watch the behind the scene footage, I saw the movie and a quick Google search yields screen shots of their cities on the island. That's a lot of buildings, not all of them connected to the caves. Even the ones in caves is architecture built into it, not just straight up living in a cave.
To say they just lived in caves is hyperbole not backed up by what is on screen.
[QUOTE=Geraldofrivia;3888835]Diana could not crack the encryption on Lex Luthor data and instead have to give it to Batman to crack. If it was Marston's WW she would have cracked encryption in no time( not a great show of intelligence)[/QUOTE]
Maybe she could have, but Marston's Diana was never confronted with any such technology and the vast majority of the DCU superheroes rely on Oracle or Cyborg or the Bat-Computer for such things. There's not enough source material to back that up. That is again not a sign of lack of intelligence either. Would you be able to crack the encryption, and would you consider yourself un-intelligent if you couldn't?
[QUOTE=Geraldofrivia;3888835]True, Dr Strange, Thor, Atlantis and Harry Potter magical civilisation. The Amazons are pretty rudimentary in their magic. Why don't they have pegasus instead of normal horses? There was barely any magical activity in Themyscira in the movie[/QUOTE]
How much source material do we have of the Amazons being full blown sorcerers? Even in the Marston run they were not riding around on pegasus. They rode on horses and kangaroos, the latter of which is bizarre but definitely something we have irl.
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[QUOTE=SiegePerilous02;3889942]
How much source material do we have of the Amazons being full blown sorcerers? Even in the Marston run they were not riding around on pegasus. They rode on horses and kangaroos, the latter of which is bizarre but definitely something we have irl.[/QUOTE]
Sorry to butt in on this discussion, but I just wanted to toss my own two cents onto this part of things. Marstons run pretty much avoided Amazons using magic. They were super intelligent with things like schools and even a college being mentioned. They had psychic powers to communicate telepathically with their super strength being based out of mental abilities. But while Wonder Woman went on adventures with leprechauns and fairies, magics never really been a thing connected to the Amazons. They would get things such as magical items like the magic girdle and would salvage parts from it to make the magic lasso, but magic wasn't a thing they did beyond asking for divine intervention on occasion.
Same went for silver age and bronze age. Post crisis would establish a handful of mystics, oracles, and witches among the Amazons but it would be more like a writer would establish this single lone figure being the single sole witch/oracle/mystic of the island, with said individual vanishing the moment another writer touches the book.
The most we have ever seen the Amazons ever using magic is in the recent justice league dark a month ago where Tyrion established the island had a coven of witches living on it.
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It pretty much comes down to classication and outlook here. A friend of my wife who was (and maybe still is) a practicing witch said that to her, magic was basically concentrated prayer, and the Amazons certainly did pray to the Greek gods, even in Marston's run.
But more fundamentally, the Amazons are a culture steeped in myth and the divine. They have direct personal relationships with their gods. They believe in omens, and let those guide their actions as a society. They grew up with dragons, griffons, pegasi, meat-eating horses, and cthonic beings. The items they create are imbued with what to the outside world are magical properties—an invisible plane, thin light sheets of metal that can turn bullets, the purple healing ray. To them, this is just something they learn to do, not something that is viewed as special or impossible. To them, this is art and craft, not magic, and that influences how it is presented to us readers. But to Man's World, it might just as well be magic. And I imagine part of the reason several of the magicians of DC are making wide circles around Wonder Woman is that they know that compared to her, they likely appear as dilettantes, and they might see how she alters reality around her just by being there.
BTW, the witches in Justice League Dark can just as easily be called priestesses of the cult of Hecate—another case of magic being partly a matter of perspective.
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[QUOTE=kjn;3890111]It pretty much comes down to classication and outlook here. A friend of my wife who was (and maybe still is) a practicing witch said that to her, magic was basically concentrated prayer, and the Amazons certainly did pray to the Greek gods, even in Marston's run.
But more fundamentally, the Amazons are a culture steeped in myth and the divine. They have direct personal relationships with their gods. They believe in omens, and let those guide their actions as a society. They grew up with dragons, griffons, pegasi, meat-eating horses, and cthonic beings. The items they create are imbued with what to the outside world are magical properties—an invisible plane, thin light sheets of metal that can turn bullets, the purple healing ray. To them, this is just something they learn to do, not something that is viewed as special or impossible. To them, this is art and craft, not magic, and that influences how it is presented to us readers. But to Man's World, it might just as well be magic. And I imagine part of the reason several of the magicians of DC are making wide circles around Wonder Woman is that they know that compared to her, they likely appear as dilettantes, and they might see how she alters reality around her just by being there.
BTW, the witches in Justice League Dark can just as easily be called priestesses of the cult of Hecate—another case of magic being partly a matter of perspective.[/QUOTE]
Ah, thats what you meant earlier when you referenced Clarkes third law. I suppose thats a good point and it can certainly get fuzzy trying to classify stuff like that. Especially in a comic book universe where street level superheroes use grappling hooks that break the laws of physics and time travel is achievable by moving very quickly.
In retrospect its kinda like Alchemy which is generally considered to be magic but the people actually involved in it treated it very much as a science to be studied, tested, and catalogued.
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[QUOTE=SiegePerilous02;3889942]kjn was not making up a fact, they were speculating. Your suggestion that they were loaned by the Gods is also just speculation and made up if there is no backing by anything on screen.
Also in the Perez run, the only item Hephaestus is explicitly shown making is the Golden Lasso. We are also explicitly shown the Amazons constructing their own buildings, making their own art, and creating the machinery to keep Doom'd Doorway sealed. We don't need to be told they make their own weapons in this case because why would they be doing all of that on their own, but not the weapons? Especially when no weapon is specified to to be God-made?
Again, Hephaestus making one thing does not necessarily lead to him making everything. Going back to Marston, we've had Gods give the Amazons items along with the Amazons making their own. Athena gave Hippolyta the Magic Sphere and Aphrodite gave her the Magic Girdle, she did not make either of them on her own.
I don't need to watch the behind the scene footage, I saw the movie and a quick Google search yields screen shots of their cities on the island. That's a lot of buildings, not all of them connected to the caves. Even the ones in caves is architecture built into it, not just straight up living in a cave.
To say they just lived in caves is hyperbole not backed up by what is on screen.
Maybe she could have, but Marston's Diana was never confronted with any such technology and the vast majority of the DCU superheroes rely on Oracle or Cyborg or the Bat-Computer for such things. There's not enough source material to back that up. That is again not a sign of lack of intelligence either. Would you be able to crack the encryption, and would you consider yourself un-intelligent if you couldn't?
How much source material do we have of the Amazons being full-blown sorcerers? Even in the Marston run, they were not riding around on Pegasus. They rode on horses and kangaroos, the latter of which is bizarre but definitely something we have girl.[/QUOTE]
[B]I said living in old buildings and caves[/B] I never said they lived exclusively in caves.
You are just running around in circles, if I bring technology you will bring the magic based Amazons from Perez, Rebirth and Justice League animated series to defend the movie
If I state there was not much magic in the movie like comics you will jump back Marston WW saying how Amazons don't have magic or sorcerers and instead used Horses
Marston Diana made Invisible Jet, Purple ray( A device that can bring dead people back ) and you don't think that Diana could crack a stupid encryption.
These Amazons are heavily inspired by the new 52 Amazons without the rape, murder and selling male babies part. That is the reason the The Amazons in the movie neither have advanced technology nor advanced magic and is stuck in 300 BC.
I don't think it is going to change in the movies until maybe a new director comes in.
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[QUOTE=Fuzzy Mittens;3890186]Ah, thats what you meant earlier when you referenced Clarkes third law. I suppose thats a good point and it can certainly get fuzzy trying to classify stuff like that. Especially in a comic book universe where street level superheroes use grappling hooks that break the laws of physics and time travel is achievable by moving very quickly.
In retrospect its kinda like Alchemy which is generally considered to be magic but the people actually involved in it treated it very much as a science to be studied, tested, and catalogued.[/QUOTE]
Exactly.
For myself, I personally prefer the more mythic-magical Amazons over the technological ones; to me the former simply seems more fitting and provides a more cohesive society and history. The technological Amazons seems to require something like Marston's attitude of the superiority of women, though if some writer can present such a society and accomplish it in some other way, I certainly wouldn't say no. And Pérez's run certainly resonated with many and gave a rich matter for later stories, to a large degree because he deliberately choose to play up the mythological connections.
I think many of the later issues with Wonder Woman post-crisis arose partly because of the decisions that Pérez made, but he only provided the tools of mythology. Other writers could have chosen to explore and depict Amazon society in other ways in those they did, even within that mythical framework, and try to create an advanced society that is advanced in ways that we do not necessarily recognise. (This latter is an issue that many science fiction authors have engaged with, with differing results. Especially Polish author Stanislaw Lem made it a specialty. Here Marvel chooses the easy and safe way with Wakanda.)
To me, the core of the Amazons doesn't lie in if they are magical or technological. To me the core lies in them being a healthy and supportive all-female society that could raise a person like Diana. That's why I find the Pérez version, the Simone version, the Jimenez version, the Rucka version, or the Jenkins version all able to fit Marston's initial vision. It's also why I vehemently reject Azzarello's version.
