Seems like The Legion and The Titans enjoyed their greatest success in the 1980s. It's been a rollercoaster for both of them ever since.
Is that a factor of the Silver Age kids audience coming of age with them? If not, what?
Printable View
Seems like The Legion and The Titans enjoyed their greatest success in the 1980s. It's been a rollercoaster for both of them ever since.
Is that a factor of the Silver Age kids audience coming of age with them? If not, what?
That may be part of it. They both had 1 amazing creator as well though. Keith Giffen was and is an amazing writer of everything but dialog apparently, and George Perez is on a lot of peoples top 10 artist lists.
Another factor was Legion of Superheroes and New Teen Titans were both B List books that could get away with stories that Superman Batman and Wonder Woman could not. Marv Wolfman upped the sex quite a bit in those books just as Chris Clairmont did in X-Men. That was a big factor in the success as well.
[QUOTE=Tony;5080758]That may be part of it. They both had 1 amazing creator as well though. Keith Giffen was and is an amazing writer of everything but dialog apparently, and George Perez is on a lot of peoples top 10 artist lists.
Another factor was Legion of Superheroes and New Teen Titans were both B List books that could get away with stories that Superman Batman and Wonder Woman could not. Marv Wolfman upped the sex quite a bit in those books just as Chris Clairmont did in X-Men. That was a big factor in the success as well.[/QUOTE]
Really good points; I agree.
Something that I think applies towards your B list book observation is, as a wrestling fan, there are those who are most exciting when they’re -chasing- a world championship, but once they get to the top spot, they aren’t nearly as compelling.
For NTT especially, I remember they kind of leveled off w. the debut of Tales of The New Teen Titans and became less and less a must read for me and other fans I knew back then.
There was nothing inherently -wrong- w. the book, it just didn’t have the...oomph? of the earlier stuff.
I don't think that we can just say that they were creatures of their time and that that's why they're not popular anymore. If that were true, the X-Men would have probably gone the same way. However, they haven't.
[QUOTE=Green Goblin of Sector 2814;5080791]I don't think that we can just say that they were creatures of their time and that that's why they're not popular anymore. If that were true, the X-Men would have probably gone the same way. However, they haven't.[/QUOTE]
A good point. What do you think made the difference?
I think it's worth mentioning that the Legion also enjoyed success two decades earlier in the 1960s. Comichron's site has some paid circulation figures for most years in that decade and DC's highest ranking team title from 1965 though 1969 was Adventure Comics featuring Superboy & the Legion. All of the Super-family titles performed very well back then. Even with that level of success the Legion was relegated to back-up status in Action and then to limbo for a few years in the early 70s.
[QUOTE=DrNewGod;5080798]A good point. What do you think made the difference?[/QUOTE]
The X-Men had longer stretches of quality. Claremont had plenty of ups and downs after Cockrum and Byrne left, but he still did some of his best stuff without them and he stayed on for a total of 17 years. Whereas NTT lost steam as soon as Perez left as co-creator. There is also the fact that the X-Men have had many "seismic shifts": NTT #1 is basically the equivalent of Giant Size X-Men #1, but it doesn't have any equivalents to Jim Lee's overhaul, New X-Men or the current HoX/PoX. And it desperately needs stuff like that, as even the X-Men have fallen into ruts in between those shifts.
It may be easier for the X-Men because they are inherently a little more independent than the Titans, a franchise in which the five main leads are spin offs of bigger name characters and will never completely stand on their own despite at times being great characters. That's why I think it's always important, beyond those five, to have the Titans be wholly original characters without ties to other corners. Stuff like the cartoon and the live action show prove that there is an audience for them, but those also rehash the stories from the comics to present them to a new audience. The comics haven't been able to tell new stuff with them in a while
[QUOTE=DrNewGod;5080798]A good point. What do you think made the difference?[/QUOTE]
I think Chris is a better writer than Marv
The X-Men had the persecution allegory that the NTT didn't
Being Sidekicks in a universe where the real heroes don't age out and retire puts a glass ceiling on them, on top of which other writers want to make their pet sidekicks up and be the focus. It's why we have 5 Robins, several Wondergirls, and Superboys, and Bruce Clark and Diana still fill the pages of Superman Batman and Wonder Woman. It's a problem unique to DC and pretty out of hand at this point.
You tell all these stories showing growth, never get to be the top dog, no longer the new kid, and one after another of replacements for you get the focus for the young guns. Unable to go up to the top they just sort of got pushed aside into limbo. It's why DC was so foolish to allow writers to make so many knockoffs that just split the fan base. When DC does a reboot they take the gutless way out and try to say all this cool stuff happened even though it's all brand new.
[QUOTE=jamgut;5080799]I think it's worth mentioning that the Legion also enjoyed success two decades earlier in the 1960s. Comichron's site has some paid circulation figures for most years in that decade and DC's highest ranking team title from 1965 though 1969 was Adventure Comics featuring Superboy & the Legion. All of the Super-family titles performed very well back then. Even with that level of success the Legion was relegated to back-up status in Action and then to limbo for a few years in the early 70s.[/QUOTE]
This is true, I think they stayed big much longer, but when they finally fell they never recovered. Somewhere in the middle of the Baxter series they took a nosedive in sales.
[QUOTE=Tony;5080823]I think Chris is a better writer than Marv
The X-Men had the persecution allegory that the NTT didn't
Being Sidekicks in a universe where the real heroes don't age out and retire puts a glass ceiling on them, on top of which other writers want to make their pet sidekicks up and be the focus. It's why we have 5 Robins, several Wondergirls, and Superboys, and Bruce Clark and Diana still fill the pages of Superman Batman and Wonder Woman. It's a problem unique to DC and pretty out of hand at this point.
You tell all these stories showing growth, never get to be the top dog, no longer the new kid, and one after another of replacements for you get the focus for the young guns. Unable to go up to the top they just sort of got pushed aside into limbo. It's why DC was so foolish to allow writers to make so many knockoffs that just split the fan base. When DC does a reboot they take the gutless way out and try to say all this cool stuff happened even though it's all brand new.[/QUOTE]
Honestly, I don't think the sideckick thing affected NTT so much. NTT falls in popularity happened before the multiple generation of sidekicks aspect was a thing.
Not even the "real heroes don't grow, so sidekicks can't either" should be a problem. Wally left the team (and become Flash), while Donna lost any connection to Wonder Woman. So, the only regular ex sidekick in the group was Dick and DC can always reduce the difference of age with Batman (they already do that).
NTT members were 20s when the comic started, I think the could become an independent adult group and even a top dog if the popularity was mantained (although the Teen part would likely dissapear).
As someone who is going back and collecting the pre-Crisis [I]Titans[/I] run, I can tell you it hasn't aged well. There are all kinds of dated references that stand out today. Wolfman was not the writer then that he is today. Could they update them for today and make it work? Sure. Have they? Not really. I don't see the [I]NTT[/I] lineup catching on today like it did then. And you have characters like Conner and Tim that people would wonder why they aren't on the team. Dick and Donna are of a specific generation that were considered the first sidekicks. We've had at least two since then. They can't really be the Teen Titans anymore unless you are starting from scratch.
As for the Legion, IDK how you could make that work. Technology insures that the "future" of a thousand years from now is always changing. I'm kind of of the opinion it might be time to drop them. Go back and look at the Legion from the 1960s and the Legion of today and tell me that things haven't changed.
@Konja7
Their are a lot of factors mentioned but I think the biggest was the creative talent on the book. Perez was the main driving force and Wolfman wasn't good enough on his own that's true. I still think a coming of age story where you never fully realize your potential is a problem the NTT will always face. When Dick became Batman it was wonderful but could never last.
If you ask random people who is Robin most will say Dick Grayson, a handful will say another name or a bunch of names but only a small minority who actually read comics, almost no one will know the other characters real names even with the cartoon that really only reached 1 generation. It's a branding thing to my mind. I think the Nightwing thing was supposed to be temporary and wiped out in Crisis. With all the reboots we have had you could have reset the ages of the sidekicks a dozen times and stayed on brand, changing Dick and Donna with the times any way you wanted. You could argue the big 4 (Superman Batman Wonder Woman and Robin) have to stay the same but speedy could be a woman and Wondergirl could be black no one would even notice other than a handful of comic readers. They just refuse to walk away from all the other characters like Tim and the other half dozen Robins. I do think it's a part of the problem, to never really grow up but no longer be the fresh new thing.
[QUOTE=superduperman;5080890]
As for the Legion, IDK how you could make that work. Technology insures that the "future" of a thousand years from now is always changing. I'm kind of of the opinion it might be time to drop them. Go back and look at the Legion from the 1960s and the Legion of today and tell me that things haven't changed.[/QUOTE]
I'm in the middle of the first Omnibus (just got the third and rereading it all) they are fun stories once you get past the first archives worth that were really just Superman Superboy and Supergirl stories. The real problem is the technology will never change enough or correctly. I'd rather enjoy it for what it was through the 5YL run as it's own thing. For me the Legion ends with Giffen. I'd be thrilled if he came back with the same level of technology though. We are probably gonna be living Cyberpunk in the next hundred years provided we survive the cancer that is social media. I don't mind the technology being less than accurate for a thousand years in the future.
I think it was actually explained well with the war destroying so much, not just history records but technology and science so while advanced just not that advanced. People are already experimenting on humans with integrated technology. I'll never join that bunch so Legion being dumbed down is fine for me. I just object to the creative team choices.
[QUOTE=superduperman;5080890]As someone who is going back and collecting the pre-Crisis [I]Titans[/I] run, I can tell you it hasn't aged well. There are all kinds of dated references that stand out today. Wolfman was not the writer then that he is today. Could they update them for today and make it work? Sure. Have they? Not really. I don't see the [I]NTT[/I] lineup catching on today like it did then. And you have characters like Conner and Tim that people would wonder why they aren't on the team. Dick and Donna are of a specific generation that were considered the first sidekicks. We've had at least two since then. They can't really be the Teen Titans anymore unless you are starting from scratch.
As for the Legion, IDK how you could make that work. Technology insures that the "future" of a thousand years from now is always changing. I'm kind of of the opinion it might be time to drop them. Go back and look at the Legion from the 1960s and the Legion of today and tell me that things haven't changed.[/QUOTE]
The NTT lineup have found success in other media. Their lack of success in recent comics is down to execution not the characters themselves.
[QUOTE=DrNewGod;5080798]A good point. What do you think made the difference?[/QUOTE]
Wolfman's weird obsession with trying to justify Deathstroke turned off a lot of people. It also didn't help that the quality of stories declined after Perez left.
[QUOTE=superduperman;5080890]As someone who is going back and collecting the pre-Crisis [I]Titans[/I] run, I can tell you it hasn't aged well. There are all kinds of dated references that stand out today. Wolfman was not the writer then that he is today. Could they update them for today and make it work? Sure. Have they? Not really. I don't see the [I]NTT[/I] lineup catching on today like it did then. And you have characters like Conner and Tim that people would wonder why they aren't on the team. Dick and Donna are of a specific generation that were considered the first sidekicks. We've had at least two since then. They can't really be the Teen Titans anymore unless you are starting from scratch.
As for the Legion, IDK how you could make that work. Technology insures that the "future" of a thousand years from now is always changing. I'm kind of of the opinion it might be time to drop them. Go back and look at the Legion from the 1960s and the Legion of today and tell me that things haven't changed.[/QUOTE]
The NTT lineup would catch on today if DC actually bothered to put in an effort and retool their characters( most of them have been so damaged and derailed by writers, an overhaul is absolutely necessary).
[QUOTE=king81992;5080923]Wolfman's weird obsession with trying to justify Deathstroke turned off a lot of people. It also didn't help that the quality of stories declined after Perez left.[/QUOTE]
To be fair, Rose is the only character Wolfman introduced in that era that proved to have any staying power.
No. The enduring success of the Teen Titans/Teen Titans Go cartoon as well as the decent popularity of the Titans TV show prove otherwise.
[QUOTE=DurararaFTW;5080973]To be fair, Rose is the only character Wolfman introduced in that era that proved to have any staying power.[/QUOTE]
I don't think it helps that after Byrne left, Claremont still created or brought in characters like Rogue, Rachel, Psylocke, Gambit, Jubilee and the New Mutants.
In comparison, post-Perez Wolfman gave us...Danny Chase, Azrael, Kole (to be killed off), Pantha and Wildebeest and the Team Titans. They don't compare favorably to the chemistry of the Fab Five + NTT crew or what the X-Men were introducing.
I was looking at some Gabriel Picolo art (link below) and realized how easy it would be for a writer to modernize these characters, yet no one seems willing to do so. The other option is to let these characters graduate and have an impact on the larger DCU, but no one is willing to do that either.
[url]https://rearfront.com/artist-revamped-teen-titans-modern-touch/[/url]
[QUOTE=SiegePerilous02;5081010]I don't think it helps that after Byrne left, Claremont still created or brought in characters like Rogue, Rachel, Psylocke, Gambit, Jubilee and the New Mutants.
In comparison, post-Perez Wolfman gave us...Danny Chase, Azrael, Kole (to be killed off), Pantha and Wildebeest and the Team Titans. They don't compare favorably to the chemistry of the Fab Five + NTT crew or what the X-Men were introducing.[/QUOTE]
After the NTT era I don’t think any of the new additions stuck, besides Rose Wilson. They had to bring in the 4 Young Justice members to invigorate the franchise, though if you look at the most popular members added around that time (Damian, Blue Beetle, Static, Me Martian), they all came from outside the TT books, a part from Megan.
Another problem is that they added way too many sidekicks to the franchise. The Fab 5 had the likes of Cyborg, Starfire, Raven, Beast Boy, Bumblebee, Terra...etc to balance things out. Who balances out the YJ4, Robin and Miss Martian? Blue Beetle and Static are popular but that’s still only two non sidekicks. They are probably the only non sidekicks in the lineup too and that’s a problem! Solstice and Bunker didn’t seem to stick.
Don’t even get me started on the current lineup with even more sidekicks
I think [I]Crisis On Infinite Earths[/I], as great as it was, hurt both of those books.
Donna Troy has never been the same since. Her origin constantly changes and she has no identity.
And by removing Superboy as the inspiration of the Legion, it never did fully recover. Superboy, and to a lesser extent Supergirl, were a major part of Legion history that they can't fill with anyone else IMO.
[QUOTE=Samm;5081060]After the NTT era I don’t think any of the new additions stuck, besides Rose Wilson. They had to bring in the 4 Young Justice members to invigorate the franchise, though if you look at the most popular members added around that time (Damian, Blue Beetle, Static, Me Martian), they all came from outside the TT books, a part from Megan.
Another problem is that they added way too many sidekicks to the franchise. The Fab 5 had the likes of Cyborg, Starfire, Raven, Beast Boy, Bumblebee, Terra...etc to balance things out. Who balances out the YJ4, Robin and Miss Martian? Blue Beetle and Static are popular but that’s still only two non sidekicks. They are probably the only non sidekicks in the lineup too and that’s a problem! Solstice and Bunker didn’t seem to stick.
Don’t even get me started on the current lineup with even more sidekicks[/QUOTE]
The only other non sidekick character who gained traction during Tim's time was Kid Devil and they killed him off. The era before New 52 was awful, too many characters joined the team, most of them for killed off and those who didn't die for derailed.
To be fair the current TT lineup only has three sidekicks. Everyone else is new. The problem with the current lineup has nothing to do with the amount of sidekicks though.
[QUOTE=caj;5081123]I think [I]Crisis On Infinite Earths[/I], as great as it was, hurt both of those books.
Donna Troy has never been the same since. Her origin constantly changes and she has no identity.
And by removing Superboy as the inspiration of the Legion, it never did fully recover. Superboy, and to a lesser extent Supergirl, were a major part of Legion history that they can't fill with anyone else IMO.[/QUOTE]
Donna is the easiest character to fix, all DC has to do is say she's Wonder Woman's adopted sister and STICK TO THAT ORIGIN!!! Sometimes simplicity is the best solution.
[QUOTE=caj;5081123]I think [I]Crisis On Infinite Earths[/I], as great as it was, hurt both of those books.
Donna Troy has never been the same since. Her origin constantly changes and she has no identity.
And by removing Superboy as the inspiration of the Legion, it never did fully recover. Superboy, and to a lesser extent Supergirl, were a major part of Legion history that they can't fill with anyone else IMO.[/QUOTE]
Is definetly true for the Legion, but i don't think that if affected NTT that much, Wolfman and Perez gaver a new origin that worked well enougth, but for some reason Byrne couldn't leave it alone and has to do something more. The problems with that title had more to do with Wolfman's decreasing quality and Perez leaving.
[QUOTE=Samm;5081060]After the NTT era I don’t think any of the new additions stuck, besides Rose Wilson. They had to bring in the 4 Young Justice members to invigorate the franchise, though if you look at the most popular members added around that time (Damian, Blue Beetle, Static, Me Martian), they all came from outside the TT books, a part from Megan.
Another problem is that they added way too many sidekicks to the franchise. The Fab 5 had the likes of Cyborg, Starfire, Raven, Beast Boy, Bumblebee, Terra...etc to balance things out. Who balances out the YJ4, Robin and Miss Martian? Blue Beetle and Static are popular but that’s still only two non sidekicks. They are probably the only non sidekicks in the lineup too and that’s a problem! Solstice and Bunker didn’t seem to stick.
Don’t even get me started on the current lineup with even more sidekicks[/QUOTE]
Bart Allen was on the Titans with Rose before Young Justice existed, Wolfman just didn't create him.
[QUOTE=Tony;5080823]Being Sidekicks in a universe where the real heroes don't age out and retire puts a glass ceiling on them, on top of which other writers want to make their pet sidekicks up and be the focus. It's why we have 5 Robins, several Wondergirls, and Superboys, and Bruce Clark and Diana still fill the pages of Superman Batman and Wonder Woman. It's a problem unique to DC and pretty out of hand at this point.
[/QUOTE]
There's only two Wonder Girls. Donna and Cassie. Damian's generation doesn't have one, which is why DCeased de-aged Cassie and had her join the Super Sons in the new Trinity.
I was thinking of the John Byrne and Geoff Johns versions of Cassie as 2 different ones, my old brain at work.
[QUOTE=SiegePerilous02;5080820]There is also the fact that the X-Men have had many "seismic shifts": NTT #1 is basically the equivalent of Giant Size X-Men #1, but it doesn't have any equivalents to Jim Lee's overhaul, New X-Men or the current HoX/PoX. And it desperately needs stuff like that, as even the X-Men have fallen into ruts in between those shifts.[/QUOTE]
I would consider the Geoff Johns relaunch in the early 2000s an equivalent.
I agree with a lot of the posts already made. I liken it to Geoff Johns on Green Lantern, or to a lesser extent maybe Simonson’s Thor or Mark Waid’s Flash, where a long-running series gains huge traction and dominates the comic world for a brief period of time. When the chief creative force behind that acclaim leaves, the series eventually (and in some cases quickly) plods back to the mean.
That’s not so say these series haven’t had great runs before or after said rock star status, the confluence of events have just never come together like they did when those particular runs were darlings of the industry.
There are very few superheroes and superhero teams that are consistently popular from decade to decade. Most characters are flashes in the pan, never rising above bit players in the shared universe. A slightly more prestigious group are the characters that rollacoster between extreme heights of popularity (useally when a star writer gets on the book) and extreme lows. To me their are really only three or so franchises in the whole superhero genre that are consistant sellers.
Batman, Superman, Spiderman. Most of the other big characters that you can name are really in the rollercoaster category.
[QUOTE=Twice-named;5081616]I would consider the Geoff Johns relaunch in the early 2000s an equivalent.[/QUOTE]
Eh, I wouldn't agree. It didn't really have any lasting impact for the franchise, not in the way that Jim Lee and Grant Morrison did for the X-Men and Hickman likely will as well. It didn't shake anything up besides swapping in new versions of Robin, Wonder Girl and Kid Flash to be like the NTT days, and added Superboy.
I think the Legion was really hurt by that second Waid reboot, even though in terms of content it's initially pretty solid. Superman and a lot of other characters managed to survive a reboot, and so did the Legion, but rebooting them again so soon after D&A left - what a waste. The rest of DC wouldn't get a hard reboot for another six years after that point. Not to mention that the New 52 was kind of a mess for them - weren't there like three different irreconcilable versions of the team running around at the same time? Which is probably not an insurmountable issue, but it's hard, I'd suggest, for building a brand that's historically not done well with retcons and reboots, in terms of sort of swimming in them.
[QUOTE=SiegePerilous02;5081727]Eh, I wouldn't agree. It didn't really have any lasting impact for the franchise, not in the way that Jim Lee and Grant Morrison did for the X-Men and Hickman likely will as well. It didn't shake anything up besides swapping in new versions of Robin, Wonder Girl and Kid Flash to be like the NTT days, and added Superboy.[/QUOTE]
It made Blue Beetle, Static, Damian Wayne and Miss Martian members though so that counts for something.
I mean, you have to consider that the New Teen Titans specifically are the most popular Titans in no small part due to the cartoon that was released in the mid-aughts. Those are the Titans that people have attachments to now, and those kids are also the fans that are beginning to break into writing.
We're due for the NTT Titans, at the very least, getting their due.
[QUOTE=SiegePerilous02;5081727]Eh, I wouldn't agree. It didn't really have any lasting impact for the franchise, not in the way that Jim Lee and Grant Morrison did for the X-Men and Hickman likely will as well. It didn't shake anything up besides swapping in new versions of Robin, Wonder Girl and Kid Flash to be like the NTT days, and added Superboy.[/QUOTE]
It brought the franchise back to life. It made the franchise the most popular it’d been since the NTT’s heyday. Though, like NTT, it waned over time.
[QUOTE=DrNewGod;5080744]Seems like The Legion and The Titans enjoyed their greatest success in the 1980s. It's been a rollercoaster for both of them ever since.
Is that a factor of the Silver Age kids audience coming of age with them? If not, what?[/QUOTE]
Legion of Super Heroes - too many timeline reboots
Titans/Teen Titans - A lack of consistency with the roster everytime it was rebooted. (Revolving door of new squads)
[quote]This is true, I think they stayed big much longer, but when they finally fell they never recovered. Somewhere in the middle of the Baxter series they took a nosedive in sales.
[/quote]
The NTT went through an unheard of period of team stability which I think hurt the book. The characters were too popular--there was no danger and it felt like the cast had the same roster for like 10 years. (With Danny Chase coming and going and Nightwing being taken by the Bat Books for awhile)
If something like "Titans Hunt" had come along when Marv was going through his writer's block, I think the series could have retained popularity.
[QUOTE=Samm;5081768]It made Blue Beetle, Static, Damian Wayne and Miss Martian members though so that counts for something.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Twice-named;5081814]It brought the franchise back to life. It made the franchise the most popular it’d been since the NTT’s heyday. Though, like NTT, it waned over time.[/QUOTE]
There is these things, but that also contributes a bit to the problem. The confusion as to what the Titans should be. NTT was about building the Titans up to be peers of the JL, the sidekicks were limited to Dick, Wally and Donna (with Roy and Garth popping in from time to time), and gradually moving them away from their former sidekick roles to adult identities.
Putting the likes of the YJ4, Miss Martian and Damian in the group and increasing the JL associations reinforces the belief that it should primarily be a training ground for sidekicks/teen heroes, thus making it look bad that Dick's generation haven't moved on from it yet. If they are the equivalent of the X-Men, Cyclops generally isn't graduating to the Avengers while Cyclops Boy takes over his spot in the X-Men. Even the New Mutants had their own identities that they could retain if they graduated to full fledged X-Men.
The Titans have more in common with Marvel's New Warriors anyway.