Shouldn't Billy Batson be in his early twenties/ late teens by now?

Captain Marvel/Shazam integrated into the DC Universe in 1987 in a miniseries by Roy Thomas. I have not had the luxury to read this miniseries, but I assume that Billy Batson was around 10 to 13 when that occured. Flash forward to the "A Lonely Place of Dying" storyline in the Batman and New Teen Titans books and you see the first appearance of Tim Drake who was also in a similar age range.

Roughly thirty years later and a lot has changed for the character of Tim Drake. Pre Flashpoint during Fabien Nicieza's Red Robin run Drake was college age. If Tim Drake and Billy Batson are similar ages then shouldn't Pre-Flashpoint Billy Batson also be college age? This kinda defeats the purpose of the character.

Obviously in New Fifty Two-Rebirth continuity, Tim Drake got slightly de-aged, but Billy Batson being in his late teens still is incredibly awkward considering the entire appeal of the Captain Marvel-Billy Batson dynamic is the contrast between the childishness of Batson and the adult characteristics of the Captain persona.

What's the explanation for this? What's the solution to this? How can you explain Captain Marvel being around when Wally West started his tenure as the Flash when he's basically been portrayed as a little kid all his history?

It's been 20+ years since I read it, but I think this was actually explained in The Power of Shazam series from the 90s. Apparently, there's something magical about Fawcett City that makes time move more slowly there, which is why Billy Batson didn't grow up as fast. Of course, having AN ENTIRE CITY where kids take decades to grow up seems a little weird. I don't remember exactly what the details were - maybe it just affected him, Mary, and Freddie more than most kids because of their magical ties to Shazam. But it was also used to explain why the city seemed very old fashioned compared to the rest of the country.

Shouldn't most people come to terms with fact that age is just a number for these characters by now? Seriously, who cares!!!

Pre Flashpoint as Red Robin Tim was only 17.

When Billy dated Stargirl in JSA (iirc before One Year Later) both were 16, like Tim was at that time. So at least untill that point he was Tims age.

[QUOTE=Fromper;4466008]It's been 20+ years since I read it, but I think this was actually explained in The Power of Shazam series from the 90s. Apparently, there's something magical about Fawcett City that makes time move more slowly there, which is why Billy Batson didn't grow up as fast. Of course, having AN ENTIRE CITY where kids take decades to grow up seems a little weird. I don't remember exactly what the details were - maybe it just affected him, Mary, and Freddie more than most kids because of their magical ties to Shazam. But it was also used to explain why the city seemed very old fashioned compared to the rest of the country.[/QUOTE]

Actually it was only used to explain why Fawcett seemed a little out of time. The Wizard had put some kind of spell in effect to keep the city closer to a 1940's feel. The series didn't last long enough for anyone to wonder why Billy didn't age- in comic time maybe a year went by from the Graphic Novel til the last issue. After that Marvels were infrequent guest stars rather than characters appearing monthly- so Billy's age wasn't an issue. If he appeared this month after a 3 year real time absence you didn't know how much comic time passed and when he appeared again next year the same thing.

No, because it's comics.

Applying real world logic to any part of The SHAZAM-verse is like walking a cat on a leash.

Aren't both Billy and Tim around 16 at present? New 52 Billy started at 15 and Tim got a scholarship to college because he's a genius but he still counts as high schooler.

As for Post Crisis, when Batman found Billy after their battle in Superman/Batman Public Enemies, he said he's around Robin's age, which at that time was Tim, so they're still the around same age, at least at that point.

[QUOTE=Aahz;4466041]Pre Flashpoint as Red Robin Tim was only 17.

When Billy dated Stargirl in JSA (iirc before One Year Later) both were 16, like Tim was at that time. So at least until that point he was Tims age.[/QUOTE]

Okay yeah, so they only have one year difference at most.

Shazam: A New Beginning was more or less retconned out of continuity with Ordway's Power of Shazam GN.

I think DC has decided pretty much to ignore anything written for them by Roy Thomas . . .

When you have an early-mid-30 something Batman playing father figure to a 20 something Robin, age is absolutely meaningless.

[QUOTE=manwhohaseverything;4466035]Shouldn't most people come to terms with fact that age is just a number for these characters by now? Seriously, who cares!!![/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Jekyll;4466122]No, because it's comics.[/QUOTE]

The true answers are here!

There should be something like the Peter Principle for comic books. The Peter Principle--for those that don't know--is when a person is promoted to their level of incompetence. They were perfectly good at one job, but because they were so good, they kept getting promoted and now they've reached a level where they're totally unfit.

There's something like this in comics, where characters keep developing (often for the sake of "realism") until they get to a point where the character has advanced beyond the point where he was most interesting. This is probably why we so often get reboots, so the writers can give themselves a do-over. Since the hook of the Billy Batson/Captain Marvel wish fulfillment is that a kid gets to become a grown-up, with amazing powers--it makes no sense to keep pushing up Billy's age, in the interest of being realistic. Eventually you end up with a grown man who becomes another grown man--and that's not really any different than most super-hero stories.

I find it interesting that now people think of Spider-Man as being about a young high school kid who gets super-powers and the conflct between his life as a kid and his life as a super-hero. It always seemed to me that Stan Lee and Steve Ditko brushed past that part of Peter Parker's life and he grew up in a hurry. He might have been in his late teens or early twenties, but he was certainly a man and his powers made him an adult all the time. Now, it's like those few stories about Peter as an awkward high school kid are the feature.

[QUOTE=Jim Kelly;4466621]There should be something like the Peter Principle for comic books. The Peter Principle--for those that don't know--is when a person is promoted to their level of incompetence. They were perfectly good at one job, but because they were so good, they kept getting promoted and now they've reached a level where they're totally unfit.

There's something like this in comics, where characters keep developing (often for the sake of "realism") until they get to a point where the character has advanced beyond the point where he was most interesting. This is probably why we so often get reboots, so the writers can give themselves a do-over. Since the hook of the Billy Batson/Captain Marvel wish fulfillment is that a kid gets to become a grown-up, with amazing powers--it makes no sense to keep pushing up Billy's age, in the interest of being realistic. Eventually you end up with a grown man who becomes another grown man--and that's not really any different than most super-hero stories.

I find it interesting that now people think of Spider-Man as being about a young high school kid who gets super-powers and the conflct between his life as a kid and his life as a super-hero. It always seemed to me that Stan Lee and Steve Ditko brushed past that part of Peter Parker's life and he grew up in a hurry. He might have been in his late teens or early twenties, but he was certainly a man and his powers made him an adult all the time. Now, it's like those few stories about Peter as an awkward high school kid are the feature.[/QUOTE]

I don’t know how I feel about about this. While I like the characters when they were young, I also hate it when characters stagnate in time. It’s so annoying.

[QUOTE=MajorHoy;4466414]I think DC has decided pretty much to ignore anything written for them by Roy Thomas . . .[/QUOTE]

That's a shame; Roy wrote some great stuff.

[COLOR=RED]Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)[/color]

[QUOTE=Jim Kelly;4466621]I find it interesting that now people think of Spider-Man as being about a young high school kid who gets super-powers and the conflct between his life as a kid and his life as a super-hero. It always seemed to me that Stan Lee and Steve Ditko brushed past that part of Peter Parker's life and he grew up in a hurry. He might have been in his late teens or early twenties, but he was certainly a man and his powers made him an adult all the time. Now, it's like those few stories about Peter as an awkward high school kid are the feature.[/QUOTE]

Peter was certainly a high school kid when he originally debuted, but he graduated high school by the end of the Sixties and was a college graduate by the late Seventies and his popularity only [I]increased[/I] from there. Which is why the "Tim Drake has to stay 16-18" argument irritates me because Spidey proved decades ago (as did Dick FWIW) that with [I]good writing[/I] this is not the case (and bad writing [I]never[/I] helps).

[QUOTE=Shamrock Holmes;4469226]Peter was certainly a high school kid when he originally debuted, but he graduated high school by the end of the Sixties and was a college graduate by the late Seventies and his popularity only [I]increased[/I] from there. Which is why the "Tim Drake has to stay 16-18" argument irritates me because Spidey proved decades ago (as did Dick FWIW) that with [I]good writing[/I] this is not the case (and bad writing [I]never[/I] helps).[/QUOTE]

I definitely agree about Tim. And I'd say all the fab five Titans had some good stories as grown ups. Though Dick and Donna more in the pre-COIE era than the others (who were still allowed to grow up). I think it's even weirder with Tim since he's not in highschool anymore. Why not just keep him 5 years older than Damian of New52 (at least I thought that was the gap) and make him 18? It's not like he's the one aging Bruce.

I'd like to see what can be done with Billy, and, of course, he was similarly aged to Tim preboot, and Tim should be older, but they compressed all the younger Bats' ages ridiculously.

The one thing for Billy though, is that his original shtick was the kid/grown-hero bit. Especially later when he was much turns-into-hero instead of hero-replaces-him. Of course, early on, he pretty much functioned as an adult. He did not attend school, held down a job, rented a room, etc. Later, this was less the case. Time change, and maintaining grades was a thing (I remember him discussing with Courtney), as were other kid-like things. Animated versions (at least some) de-aged him a bit (he was originally 12 when he became Captain Marvel and aged similar to real-time for a couple years) to hype that difference. But eventually, if they don't keep rebooting, he has to grow up. And he needs to be developed enough that there's still something interesting about him then.

It doesn't matter.

Billy Batson has to stay youthful because that is what the whole concept/character hinges on.

[QUOTE=Flash Gordon;4470281]It doesn't matter.

Billy Batson has to stay youthful because that is what the whole concept/character hinges on.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, it kind of defeats the point if Billy is getting up to the same age as when he transforms.

[QUOTE=Timothy Hunter;4465979]Captain Marvel/Shazam integrated into the DC Universe in 1987 in a miniseries by Roy Thomas. I have not had the luxury to read this miniseries, but I assume that Billy Batson was around 10 to 13 when that occured. Flash forward to the "A Lonely Place of Dying" storyline in the Batman and New Teen Titans books and you see the first appearance of Tim Drake who was also in a similar age range.

Roughly thirty years later and a lot has changed for the character of Tim Drake. Pre Flashpoint during Fabien Nicieza's Red Robin run Drake was college age. If Tim Drake and Billy Batson are similar ages then shouldn't Pre-Flashpoint Billy Batson also be college age? This kinda defeats the purpose of the character.

Obviously in New Fifty Two-Rebirth continuity, Tim Drake got slightly de-aged, but Billy Batson being in his late teens still is incredibly awkward considering the entire appeal of the Captain Marvel-Billy Batson dynamic is the contrast between the childishness of Batson and the adult characteristics of the Captain persona.

What's the explanation for this? What's the solution to this? How can you explain Captain Marvel being around when Wally West started his tenure as the Flash when he's basically been portrayed as a little kid all his history?[/QUOTE]

Billy Batson was depicted as being in his early twenties during the "Future's End" series (2014-15), and was depicted as being 19 years old as recent as Young Justice: Outsiders (Season 3). However, with the reboot of the DCU (52, Nu-52, Rebirth, etc), Billy is back at being 16 years old now, as seen in the recent SHAZAM! series. And as some have already commented, the concept of SHAZAM! works better as a "kid power-fantasy", where a boy (teenager or otherwise) can say a magic word and become a "Superman". Personally, such a series featuring such a character would work only as a kid power fantasy, and would end with Billy grown up, and ready to become the new guardian/wizard of the Rock of Eternity while appointing someone else as his "champion" (which happened in "Trials of SHAZAM!", when Billy became the new guardian/wizard, while Freddy Freeman became his champion).

However, the more hardcore fans wouldn't like such a progression, so Billy must remain a child, and must remain champion of the guardian/wizard of the Rock of Eternity. Go figure.

[QUOTE=Frontier;4471900]Yeah, it kind of defeats the point if Billy is getting up to the same age as when he transforms.[/QUOTE]

Which means that either Billy is "promoted" at some point (see: Trials of SHAZAM!) while anointing another kid to be the new champion, stays forever young and becomes a magical creature (see: New Frontier), or he retires and relinquishes his role to another kid. Those are the choices in order to keep the "kid power fantasy" consistent.

[quote]Yeah, it kind of defeats the point if Billy is getting up to the same age as when he transforms.[/quote]I wouldn't mind it. Worked for Freddy.

[QUOTE=Frontier;4471900]Yeah, it kind of defeats the point if Billy is getting up to the same age as when he transforms.[/QUOTE]

As Mary pretty much is now, considering she's about to turn 18. She's the oldest of the gang though.

As for the continuity, everything Shazam related pre-New 52 is no longer canon - that's the reason he's still a teenager. Billy is 16, and has actually aged a year since getting his powers. I do wonder though, that father that showed up... could he also be called Billy Batson? Perhaps he's the pre-Flashpoint version, grown up and depowered. That would also explain Billy and Mary no longer being twins, and Freddy's different hair colour.

I was under the impression that Ordway explained away Billy's prolonged time as a youth by explaining that Fawcett City had been enchanted by Iblis The Invincible in the Golden Age so that it existed in a kind of perpetual time warp that kept everything and everyone the way it was in the 1940s & 50s.

That worked better for me than the Bronze Age suspendium explanation in which seemingly everyone connected to the Captain Marvel mythos was stuck in suspended animation for decades until they were freed by DC gaining the rights to publish their Shazam comics.

[QUOTE=Bored at 3:00AM;4473188]. . . they were freed by DC gaining the rights to publish their Shazam comics.[/QUOTE]

As that's the true explanation, it's the one that makes the most sense.

[QUOTE=dswynne;4472716]Which means that either Billy is "promoted" at some point (see: Trials of SHAZAM!) while anointing another kid to be the new champion, stays forever young and becomes a magical creature (see: New Frontier), or he retires and relinquishes his role to another kid. Those are the choices in order to keep the "kid power fantasy" consistent.[/QUOTE]

Or, they ignore all that and just tell fun stories for everyone to enjoy.

Set it all on THUNDERWORLD, if you have to.