Bullseye's skeleton came like 20 years after the character was introduced as someone who could KO DD with a paper plane and whatnot. Well not introduced as such but within a few years
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Bullseye's skeleton came like 20 years after the character was introduced as someone who could KO DD with a paper plane and whatnot. Well not introduced as such but within a few years
[QUOTE=Sharpandpointies;2092060]To take this further, they started off nicely with her. I get they didn't want her bullet-timing, but if her big skill is combat - whereas other Batpeople have all kinds of other skills - she ought to be tops in that. And that's kind of how she was introduced. First scene we see her, she clearly beats all heck out of Grayson with him realizing that her attacks are all kill-shots - attacks that are [I]landing[/I], note - but she's pulling them to make them non-lethal. The implication here is that had she wanted him dead, he'd be dead.
Then after that?
Whether or not she's toying with him or trying to communicate, they show Jason getting the upper hand on her (fight broken up by Grayson). They have her getting whaled on by Orphan (ugh...NuDavid Cain who has none of Old Cain's semi-redeeming features/hilarity, instead being this faceless, spineless robot-thing) who then goes on to getting his ass handed to him by Grayson...off-screen, because Grayson got serious (I feel even the writers couldn't sell this to themselves, hence putting the fight off-screen), they have her getting bonked on the back of the head by one of a group the Batfamily is beating up in large numbers and saved by Bluebird (there are other ways to form a bond between characters, writer), they have Jason Todd of all people claiming to body-read her while she's body-reading him and starting to adjust to her fighting, etc, etc.
Any of these would be fine, but the general picture it paints is 'nothing special, really'.[/QUOTE]
I haven't read the relevant comic(s), but there doesn't really sound like there is anything wrong with the above. Batman and Nightwing are essentially on par with each other. Even discounting the super-even fight they apparently had, I believe the feats even show them to be an even match with Bruce only having the edge in sheer experience/ damage soak. Furthermore, Jason is damn good. After he came back to life, he receive all training from Shiva. Shiva is, more or less, the female Batman equivalent with ambiguous skill references/ talk, which imply she is vaguely better. My point is that Nightwing "holding" back could indeed be dominated by someone of a similar skill level. Besides skill, Dick likely was not hitting with all his strength. In the end, since I'm assuming Cain is short and more like Damian in build than Dick, it makes sense she'd be beaten by him if he went all out. Right now it sounds like she's in the Damian Wayne territory but overall a little more deadly.
Also, it is pretty clear people on the level of these guys are thinking one or two moves ahead and anticipating their opponents moves damn well *better than real-life* anyway. Overall, I'd rather martial artist who on any given day of the week could beat one another with one or two poor missteps. It makes things less ridiculous when the inevitable cross-over happens and someone gets owned...mind you, I am no longer reading any DC comics, but it helps DC with its continuity and Batman being the "Bad-ass" they want him to be...
[QUOTE=Ambaryerno;2092152]This is WHY I find it problematic: Her "body reading" is being elevated to outright telepathy. Comics STILL have a suspension of disbelief, and Cass (and by extension, frankly, the entire Bat Family) strains it to the breaking point.[/quote]
If the entire Bat Family is problematic for you, then obviously the problem extends well-past Cass.
[quote]Taskmaster's abilities are non-mutant or magical, but they ARE explicitly superhuman as a result of direct enhancement. Daredevil is ALSO enhanced and not an ostensibly baseline human, for that matter. Shang-Chi and Bullseye I'll grant you (Bullseye does have an adamantium skeleton, but that's irrelevant to his other abilities). However I don't read much of either of those characters.[/QUOTE]
As I recall, Taskmaster is unenhanced. Is this a new thing? *checks* Yep, seems now he is enhanced. Never used to be that way, I stand corrected.
Daredevil's skills are not entirely due to enhancement - Stick explains to him that he would have gotten to exactly where he was through training, the chemicals just helped him along. Stick also has the same skills, completely through training. And more. And the rest of the Chaste have superhuman powers...through training. And some of Matt's skills are explicitly through training. Elektra's mental powers? Training.
We could continue.
Constantine Drakon. Karate Kid. Batman's own superhuman abilities. Iron Fist pre-dragon killing was still superhuman through training. Richard Dragon has fought using echolocation. Etc.
The list goes on and on.
If you don't like them, you don't like them. That's cool. I'm just saying that equating them to real-world things or stuff everyone can do is fundamentally incorrect, because these are special, unique comic book things people have learned that even other comic book characters can't pull off. And saying that because they don't work that way in the real world...comic books are studded with that kind of thing. It's not exactly unique to Cass.
If you don't like the character, and you don't like her due to XYZ, fair enough. Lotta stuff I don't like, other people like. :)
[QUOTE=Nik Hasta;2092137]Shame, nerfing characters to suit a narrative is always annoying.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, less-than impressive to me as well. I like your ideas, personally, and I'm in that camp. Also, change Shiva from Sexy-Ninja back to her older self.
[QUOTE=Marvel-Studios Rep;2092180]I haven't read the relevant comic(s), but there doesn't really sound like there is anything wrong with the above. Batman and Nightwing are essentially on par with each other. Even discounting the super-even fight they apparently had, I believe the feats even show them to be an even match with Bruce only having the edge in sheer experience/ damage soak.[/quote]
Expect disagreement on this.
[quote]Furthermore, Jason is damn good. After he came back to life, he receive all training from Shiva. Shiva is, more or less, the female Batman equivalent with ambiguous skill references/ talk, which imply she is vaguely better.[/quote]
Except she isn't, in NuDC.
[quote]My point is that Nightwing "holding" back could indeed be dominated by someone of a similar skill level. Besides skill, Dick likely was not hitting with all his strength. In the end, since I'm assuming Cain is short and more like Damian in build than Dick, it makes sense she'd be beaten by him if he went all out.[/quote]
They don't actually make the size distinction much in comics. I guess they could start going there, but it's a new thing.
And it doesn't jibe with the constant 'Deadliest fighter on the planet' billing she gets.
It's irritating when they keep saying that, and then show the opposite.
[quote]Also, it is pretty clear people on the level of these guys are thinking one or two moves ahead and anticipating their opponents moves damn well *better than real-life* anyway.[/quote]
Well, yes.
It's just that it wasn't that way in the past. The nerfing of the body-reading is a very real thing.
[quote]Overall, I'd rather martial artist who on any given day of the week could beat one another with one or two poor missteps. It makes things less ridiculous when the inevitable cross-over happens and someone gets owned...mind you, I am no longer reading any DC comics, but it helps DC with its continuity and Batman being the "Bad-ass" they want him to be...[/QUOTE]
Sure, and that's fine.
For me, it's when everyone is essentially operating on the same level...and then everyone but Cass has all of these wonderful skills on top of what she has...what's the point of having the character around, in a general sense, other than 'take up space in a narrative'?
Right. Deadliest fighter on the planet.
Only she's not.
Everyone else brings something special to the table. And Bruce is 'the total package'. Just...not her.
Daredevil lost his radar powers in the 80s and developed his own "internal radar that every ninja has". I think this was ignored by later writers though
Put another way, regarding the any given day fighting thing....
There was this fantastic team-up between Robin and Cass back when. It started in Robin's mag, ended in Batgirl. Robin ends up in over his head with Shrike, who has been hired by Penguin to kill him. Robin is no slouch, but Shrike picks him apart (Robin gets in some hits, but he's outclassed).
Enter Cass.
Cass then crushes Shrike, effortlessly.
Is this taken as a cut against Robin? Not really. Robin, once recovered, takes charge and does the detective work that Cass cannot do, getting them into the Penguin's hideout. Surprise, it's a trap! They do okay in the fight, but both eventually get taken down. ROBIN then comes up with a plan to get them out, and communicates this to Cass through body language. They both fight their way out, and head off to do some in-character discussion (good stuff, to boot).
Does Robin come off as 'inferior' because he can't fight as well as Cass? Nope! In the bigger fights, he does pretty well himself thanks to the use of gadgets as well as his own not-inconsiderable fighting skill. He runs the detective part of the operation. He comes up with the plan that saves them. <- These things, they are kind of his trademark skills.
But Cass does bring something to the table despite all of this, and that's her superior fighting ability and body-reading skill.
I feel this one was a really good showing for both of them.
Maybe the comic doesn't support this, but in theory Cass could be the best body reader on the planet but still not the best all around fighter. Perhaps the new version isn't as deadly when emotions or something thereabouts effect her. Hence her being the most deadly , but not currently being able to embarrass everyone...
Don't know. But in New 52 at least, Dc seemed fairly content for "Top Dogs" to be uncontested in certain things.
Superman is the strongest hero! Batman is the most skilled! Flash is the fastest! WW has no weakness and weapons of the Gods! Aquaman has the most psychic power relevant to he sea! Shazam is the magic guy! Cyborg is the tech guy! There isn't much of the old ambiguity with regards to multiple people via for the top spot, or grossly out classic the key justice league members...perhaps an idea of editorial...
[QUOTE=Marvel-Studios Rep;2092251]Maybe the comic doesn't support this, but in theory Cass could be the best body reader on the planet but still not the best all around fighter. Perhaps the new version isn't as deadly when emotions or something thereabouts effect her. Hence her being the most deadly , but not currently being able to embarrass everyone...
Don't know. But in New 52 at least, Dc seemed fairly content for "Top Dogs" to be uncontested in certain things.
Superman is the strongest hero! Batman is the most skilled! Flash is the fastest! WW has no weakness and weapons of the Gods! [b]Aquaman has the most psychic power relevant to he sea! [/b]Shazam is the magic guy! Cyborg is the tech guy! There isn't much of the old ambiguity with regards to multiple people via for the top spot, or grossly out classic the key justice league members...perhaps an idea of editorial...[/QUOTE]
I think you're reaching with that one a bit.... ;)
[QUOTE=Marvel-Studios Rep;2092251]Maybe the comic doesn't support this, but in theory Cass could be the best body reader on the planet but still not the best all around fighter. Perhaps the new version isn't as deadly when emotions or something thereabouts effect her. Hence her being the most deadly , but not currently being able to embarrass everyone...[/quote]
I don't view 'being a better fighter' as embarrassing anyone myself, but I get your meaning. It's no more embarrassing, for example, for Cass' character to require assistance from Spoiler or Tim Drake when it comes to detective work or the like. And her planning is atrocious.
[quote]Don't know. But in New 52 at least, Dc seemed fairly content for "Top Dogs" to be uncontested in certain things.
Superman is the strongest hero! Batman is the most skilled! Flash is the fastest! WW has no weakness and weapons of the Gods! Aquaman has the most psychic power relevant to he sea! Shazam is the magic guy! Cyborg is the tech guy! There isn't much of the old ambiguity with regards to multiple people via for the top spot, or grossly out classic the key justice league members...perhaps an idea of editorial...[/QUOTE]
Probably.
I liked it better when Bruce was something like #2 or #3 at everything (with possibly a few #1's). Made him just as scary, because in an unlimited, anything-goes situation he was ahead of everyone else, but at the same time if someone managed to force him into a situation where he was facing a #1 in their area of speciality, he'd be in serious trouble.
Frankly, the guy who is #2 in everything is pretty much as scary as the guy who is #1, with less of the lingering odour of omnicompetence. ^_^
Back in the day, there were all kinds of people who could give Bruce a run in their areas of speciality. Shiva, Dragon, Cass could all best him in straight-up fights (and people like KGBeast would give him a really, really hard time). Stealthwise/spotting stealthy people Cass and Shiva were on his level. There were awesome detectives around (Tim Drake supposedly capable of exceeding him, as an example), and engineers who made stuff that was easily equal if not better than Bruce's.
It's just that he was this dude with an amazing tactical mind who had worked himself up to 'second best in everything (with possibly a couple of firsts)', and that made him special, skill-wise. Not 'special snowflake in every discipline', but 'he's special because of the whole of it all together makes something greater than the sum'.
Well, those are my feelings. Mileage may vary.
With Rebirth, has Cass's story changed at all? I thought I saw that she's running under the name Orphan now, or was that Nu52 stuff?
[QUOTE=The Dork Knight;2092200][B]Datedevil[/B] lost his radar powers in the 80s and developed his own "internal radar that every ninja has". I think this was ignored by later writers though[/QUOTE]
Was this the power to detect dates he could ruin?
Despite rebirth, they've kept her exactly as she was in Nu52. It's like nothing happened at all.
I'm starting to wonder if Batman's continuity is immune to being touched. Nu52? No, all of that Post Crisis stuff happened, just squashed into a smaller package. Oh, and without Cass (apparently).
Rebirth? No, all of that Nu52 stuff happened as well.
as has been said before on numerous other threads: you can't expect realism from fictional medium.
most of the cast from the "grappler baki" series comes to mind. most of the top dog fighters there are "un-enhanced" fighters and yet they do shit that no real world fighter could even dare to replicate.
[QUOTE=Lord Falcon;2092478]Was this the power to detect dates he could ruin?[/QUOTE]
Hehe you never know with DD's love life ...