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[QUOTE=PCN24454;4637577]I feel like modern combat are more s parody of comics rather than comics themselves. It’s getting really annoying.
Lookups. Really?
Yet another case of making the Marvel Universe unbearably small.[/QUOTE]
I honestly don't know what you want from Spider-Man books. From your other posts, it doesn't sound like you enjoy any era of Spider-Man.
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[QUOTE=PCN24454;4637568]Basically, my problem is Mary Jane has reached Mary Sue status and there’s no better proof than random characters talking about how awesome you are in spite of not really being close.[/QUOTE]
I could show how MJ defeated Electro recently, but I don't thing that would change anything.
About the Mary Sue thing, JMS made MJ a so interesting characters by exploring her insecurities and weaknesses. If she was a Mary Sue, she would never have any of this.
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[QUOTE=PCN24454;4637528]Who said I didn’t like romance?
There are lots of great romance stories between Spider-Man and [B]a lot of characters[/B]. They don’t have to be named MJ.
I honestly didn’t care about all this until people started sanctifying her. She’s seriously not required.[/QUOTE]
Dude, I never said she was. I actually agree with you that MJ is not the be all end all of the Spider-Man Mythos, or even Spidey's love interests. What I was saying is that Slott didn't seem interested in giving Spider-Man a true love interest when writing his run but rather setting up big events. On the other hand, Slott proved he can write a good love story when he paired Otto with Anna Maria during Superior.
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[QUOTE=Hugo Strange;4637623]I could show how MJ defeated Electro recently, but I don't thing that would change anything.
About the Mary Sue thing, JMS made MJ a so interesting characters by exploring her insecurities and weaknesses. If she was a Mary Sue, she would never have any of this.[/QUOTE]
What [B]makes[/B] a Mary Sue is that they steal spotlight away from other characters. The fact that an otherwise normal woman was able to defeat a supervillain is only further evidence!
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[QUOTE=Celgress;4637637]Dude, I never said she was. I actually agree with you that MJ is not the be all end all of the Spider-Man Mythos, or even Spidey's love interests. What I was saying is that Slott didn't seem interested in giving Spider-Man a true love interest when writing his run but rather setting up big events. On the other hand, Slott proved he can write a good love story when he paired Otto with Anna Maria during Superior.[/QUOTE]
I honestly didn’t really like Slott’s run after Spider-Island. It felt like he more or less discarded every plot line that he’d been planning beforehand. It wasn’t unreadable but not as consistent as his earlier story arcs.
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[QUOTE=PCN24454;4637647]What [B]makes[/B] a Mary Sue is that they steal spotlight away from other characters. The fact that an otherwise normal woman was able to defeat a supervillain is only further evidence![/QUOTE]
I do hate when MJ defeats a supervillain. If they want to go in that direction give her powers I say.
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[QUOTE=Celgress;4637658]I do hate when MJ defeats a supervillain. If they want to go in that direction give her powers I say.[/QUOTE]
As much as I wish we saw more of “MJ-as-Spider-Woman” in Ultimate Spider-Man (cartoon of course), I prefer her without powers because she doesn’t need superpowers to be important or rather, she doesn’t need to be fighting supervillains.
She never asked to be a superhero and she doesn’t have to be.
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[QUOTE=PCN24454;4637647]What [B]makes[/B] a Mary Sue is that they steal spotlight away from other characters.[/quote]
A Mary Sue is a character whose aspects are more talked about and described than apparent...told rather than shown. That's never the case with MJ. How she's described and how she appears is consistent.
Mary Sue applies to Stan Lee's Gwen Stacy who characters spent a lot of time talking up and so on but we never see her do all that much. Gwen Stacy literally stole spotlight away from other characters in that Stan had to drive MJ out of the books to give her a choice and then later Gwen drove Aunt May out of the books. Carlie Cooper in the BND era is another example of that. She had widely inconsistent personality and character design, which changed from issue to issue and artist by artist (there's one issue, I think the ASM tie-in about Johnny's death with Ty Templeton where she looks identical to MJ), and every character talked up about how special she was and so on.
And in any case, the greater focus on Mary Jane in JMS is more than justified. She had spent two years out of the books when she "died" in an asinine plot point and then there was editorially mandated separation. So of course you have to build up and refresh and reintroduce her and feature her more prominently than before.
That context, of which you are either ignorant, indifferent or actively disingenuous of, alone disproves this Mary Sue nonsense.
Mary Jane has been written out of the books multiple times by editors and writers and everytime she came back her popularity increased. She is the Spider-Man supporting character with most appearances. She earned her popularity fair and square in opposition to the thumbs on the scales. That alone disproves any of this Sue nonsense. Sues owe their status to the thumbs on the scale not in opposition to it.
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[QUOTE=PCN24454;4637662]....She never asked to be a superhero and she doesn’t have to be.[/QUOTE]
Many characters don't "ask" to be superheroes it just sort of happens through a confluence of circumstances beyond their control. I can only think of a few exceptions who actively sought out the superhero lifestyle (for lack of a better term) such as Batman or arguably Superman.
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[QUOTE=Revolutionary_Jack;4637674]A Mary Sue is a character whose aspects are more talked about and described than apparent...told rather than shown. That's never the case with MJ. How she's described and how she appears is consistent.
Mary Sue applies to Stan Lee's Gwen Stacy who characters spent a lot of time talking up and so on but we never see her do all that much. Gwen Stacy literally stole spotlight away from other characters in that Stan had to drive MJ out of the books to give her a choice and then later Gwen drove Aunt May out of the books. Carlie Cooper in the BND era is another example of that. She had widely inconsistent personality and character design, which changed from issue to issue and artist by artist (there's one issue, I think the ASM tie-in about Johnny's death with Ty Templeton where she looks identical to MJ), and every character talked up about how special she was and so on.
And in any case, the greater focus on Mary Jane in JMS is more than justified. She had spent two years out of the books when she "died" in an asinine plot point and then there was editorially mandated separation. So of course you have to build up and refresh and reintroduce her and feature her more prominently than before.
That context, of which you are either ignorant, indifferent or actively disingenuous of, alone disproves this Mary Sue nonsense.
Mary Jane has been written out of the books multiple times by editors and writers and everytime she came back her popularity increased. She is the Spider-Man supporting character with most appearances. She earned her popularity fair and square in opposition to the thumbs on the scales. That alone disproves any of this Sue nonsense. Sues owe their status to the thumbs on the scale not in opposition to it.[/QUOTE]
Yeah...
You never liked Gwen in the first place rendering literally anything you can claim moot and useless.
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[QUOTE=WebSlingWonder;4637617]I honestly don't know what you want from Spider-Man books. From your other posts, it doesn't sound like you enjoy any era of Spider-Man.[/QUOTE]
I literally only talked about the Spencer and JMS runs.
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[QUOTE=PCN24454;4637692]...[/QUOTE]
Okay let me repost that without the objectionable parts. So you can respond to this...
[I]A Mary Sue is a character whose aspects are more talked about and described than apparent...told rather than shown. That's never the case with MJ. How she's described and how she appears is consistent.
And in any case, the greater focus on Mary Jane in JMS is more than justified. She had spent two years out of the books when she "died" in an asinine plot point and then there was editorially mandated separation. So of course you have to build up and refresh and reintroduce her and feature her more prominently than before.
That context, of which you are either ignorant, indifferent or actively disingenuous of, alone disproves this Mary Sue nonsense.
Mary Jane has been written out of the books multiple times by editors and writers and everytime she came back her popularity increased. She is the Spider-Man supporting character with most appearances. She earned her popularity fair and square in opposition to the thumbs on the scales. That alone disproves any of this Sue nonsense. Sues owe their status to the thumbs on the scale not in opposition to it.[/I]
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[QUOTE=Revolutionary_Jack;4637738]Okay let me repost that without the objectionable parts. So you can respond to this...
[I]A Mary Sue is a character whose aspects are more talked about and described than apparent...told rather than shown. That's never the case with MJ. How she's described and how she appears is consistent.
And in any case, the greater focus on Mary Jane in JMS is more than justified. She had spent two years out of the books when she "died" in an asinine plot point and then there was editorially mandated separation. So of course you have to build up and refresh and reintroduce her and feature her more prominently than before.
That context, of which you are either ignorant, indifferent or actively disingenuous of, alone disproves this Mary Sue nonsense.
Mary Jane has been written out of the books multiple times by editors and writers and everytime she came back her popularity increased. She is the Spider-Man supporting character with most appearances. She earned her popularity fair and square in opposition to the thumbs on the scales. That alone disproves any of this Sue nonsense. Sues owe their status to the thumbs on the scale not in opposition to it.[/I][/QUOTE]
If being a Mary Sue was simply being talked well about then Peter would be a Mary Sue as well.
She’s not a Captain America character or an Avengers one (I dislike how she was made an Iron Man one), yet she has alternate covers for all of those books during the November(?) solicitations. It’s absolutely maddening how much she’s being pushed right now as though no other Spider character exists.
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[QUOTE=PCN24454;4638430]If being a Mary Sue was simply being talked well about...[/quote]
It's when characterization consists in other characters falling on themselves to talk up a character in opposition to what the character does and the character's effect on readers. That's a long sentence, and I apologize for that, but Mary Sue because it tends to be thrown around as an insult willy-nilly needs a hard definition as opposed to a simple one.
[quote]She’s not a Captain America character or an Avengers one (I dislike how she was made an Iron Man one), yet she has alternate covers for all of those books during the November(?) solicitations.[/quote]
Variant covers are demanded by comic book sellers and distributors because the character is popular and there's a market for it. That means she's actually popular with readers...so not a Mary Sue.
[quote]It’s absolutely maddening how much she’s being pushed right now as though no other Spider character exists.[/QUOTE]
Venom has an ongoing (and is the star of an entire event comic, Absolute Carnage).
Black Cat has an ongoing.
Miles Morales has an ongoing.
Superior Octopus has an ongoing (which will end this month presumably).
Mary Jane merely has a miniseries (that if successful might or might not become one) who knows. It's also 616 MJ's first miniseries. I might remind you that before Scarlet Spider, Kaine and others also had ongoing.
I have no idea why you feel that MJ is being promoted at the expense of other characters. But bear in mind, those are just feelings. Feelings can be deceptive. You can feel something in strong opposition to reality. You might feel that MJ is being pushed at expense of other characters...but reality is here to inform you that this is simply not true.
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[QUOTE=WebSlingWonder;4637570]In Spencer's run, he introduced a group called the Lookups. Supporting cast members of different heroes who want to open up and talk about their experiences with other heroes. It's a way to cope.[/QUOTE]Yeah, Ganke is a member too. Of course neither MJ nor Ganke know that the hero linked to each other is the other Spider-Man.