Examples of Pre-Flashpoint Canon Reasserting Itself in the DC Universe

[QUOTE=Zeeguy91;2391790]But he's already been shown to [I]remember[/I]. That's the status quo of now: Wally remembers his life. The burden is now on the writer and DC to refute that notion by explicitly saying he doesn't remember a specific element.[/quote]

Wally said "It's getting harder to remember" (whilst holding his hands to his head, no less). Because of that line, we can no longer assume that Wally still remembers absolutely everything. Geoff Johns put that line of dialogue in there for a reason.

We know that he remembers being in a relationship with Linda.

Another thing we know is that all the flashbacks in the new Titans series have reflected "Titans Hunt" continuity, rather than the Silver Age depiction that was in continuity up until 2011.

[QUOTE=Zeeguy91;2391790]So, even if its just a logical and 99% certain leap? Every time a story ever characterizes something as "stolen" or "missing," and the heroes are aware of its status as such, its usually a matter of time before its no longer stolen or missing.[/QUOTE]

It's speculation until it's printed, or at the very least until it's officially announced.

[QUOTE=Moon;2391810]Here is the thing: There are two different lives Wally remembers a)pre-Flashpoint b)New 52. Pre-Flashpoint is fading away but he remembers Linda due to his love for her. New 52 is also joggled with if you notice Iris/Barry in Wally's updated origin. So there are things stolen in both lives but Wally has a better grasp on the latter.

Again, Wally not mentioning kids so far, not even mourning them once proves they are gone, and I couldn't be more glad. Pre-Flashpoint isn't coming back as it was, we are going to get a stretched out timeline with new additions resembling the old, like the upcoming Judas Contract for example.[/QUOTE]

Upon much thought and reflection (I have way too much time on my hands), I agree with this. Embracing most of their characters history (most post-crisis, some pre-crisis), giving it a fresh coat of paint and ignoring the stories that they feel should be ignored. That's the DCU moving forward.

[QUOTE=Lee;2391829]Wally said "It's getting harder to remember" (whilst holding his hands to his head, no less). Because of that line, we can no longer assume that Wally still remembers absolutely everything. Geoff Johns put that line of dialogue in there for a reason.

We know that he remembers being in a relationship with Linda.[/QUOTE]

"Its getting harder to remember" does not equal "I can no longer remember." And the point still remains: the burden of proof is on the [B]writer and DC[/B] to emphatically establish that Wally has forgotten those things.

And we know he knows that he was [B][U]married[/U][/B] to Linda. Several flashbacks, not just in the Speed Force, but in Titans show him with Linda, in what are essentially panels ripped from Pre-FP Flash stories. One is a straight up panel from the finale to Terminal Velocity from Waid's run.

[QUOTE]Another thing we know is that all the flashbacks in the new Titans series have reflected "Titans Hunt" continuity, rather than the Silver Age depiction that was in continuity up until 2011.[/QUOTE]

You need to reread the DCU: Rebirth one-shot. Its very clearly the Silver Age depiction that Wally remembers. Wally's never been shown to only remember the New 52 "Titans Hunt" incarnation. That's what the other Titans remember because they don't have the awareness of someone messing with the timeline that Wally does.

[QUOTE]It's speculation until it's printed, or at the very least until it's officially announced.[/QUOTE]

DC has already published a story that directly states "time was stolen." The logical conclusion to that story and the one that DC has pointed to at every opportunity is that that time will be restored.

[QUOTE=Zeeguy91;2391828]I don't think that's been proven, especially when we see flashbacks to [I]his pre-Flashpoint life[/I] in Titans.[/QUOTE]
Except

1) His TT flashbacks are COMPLETELY different to pre-flashpoint in Titans series. He also mentions Titans fighting against Kadabra before, which never happened.
2) He's aged up like Dick. He was 15-16 when he became Kid Flash. That alone changes things.


[QUOTE]It really doesn't. His constant bringing up of the 10 years missing from the timeline and his alerting both Barry and the Titans to those 10 years essentially proves that he knows his "New 52 life" isn't his "real" life. You see, even though the Titans and Barry now remember their New 52 Wally, they also know that they had 10 years of memories stolen from them (i.e. their pre-Flashpoint lives). Why? Because Wally [B][U]told[/U][/B] them. Because Wally knows that their post-Flashpoint memories are not ALL THERE IS to their lives. That there's more: the Pre-Flashpoint memories.

And Wally's shown determination to reclaim those 10 years (as seen in Titans and in Flash #9) is likely because he knows what he's lost...his children.[/QUOTE]

No offense but you are grasping straws dude. You will end up with disappointment if you are really ambitious about this. Those 10 years won't be copy pasted from pre-flashpoint, they will change, like COIE and Zero Hour touches. If that was the case, we wouldn't have been getting Judas Contract reboot as they would have just reclaimed NTT as canon anyway. Things have changed fundamentally, DC will just add in what's liked and ignore what isn't, period.

[QUOTE=Zeeguy91;2391845]"Its getting harder to remember" does not equal "I can no longer remember."[/quote]

Would you prefer it if I said "It's unclear which things Wally remembers clearly and which things Wally has difficulty remembering"?

If Geoff Johns' intent was for Wally to still remember everything he did in the Speed Force, I don't think he'd have written that line.

[QUOTE=Zeeguy91;2391845]You need to reread the DCU: Rebirth one-shot. Its very clearly the Silver Age depiction that Wally remembers.[/quote]

Whilst he was in the Speed Force. We're talking about what he does and doesn't remember since returning.

The romance with Lilith for example is something that fits in the current Titans Hunt/Rebirth continuity, but was never shown to have happened prior to Flashpoint.

[QUOTE=Zeeguy91;2391845]DC has already published a story that directly states "time was stolen." The logical conclusion to that story and the one that DC has pointed to at every opportunity is that that time will be restored.[/QUOTE]

Maybe. Maybe not. We won't know until the storyline reaches its conclusion.

This is probably another good time to point out that part of the plot of Infinite Crisis was that the heroes learned that there was a multiverse before. And while it did result in a new multiverse, it did NOT result in that old multiverse being returned.

Thus having the heroes learn that a previous timeline existed does not mean that said timeline is automatically going to be returned.

[QUOTE=Moon;2391917]Except

1) His TT flashbacks are COMPLETELY different to pre-flashpoint in Titans series. He also mentions Titans fighting against Kadabra before, which never happened.
2) He's aged up like Dick. He was 15-16 when he became Kid Flash. That alone changes things.[/QUOTE]

[B][U]EXCEPT[/U][/B]

1) They really don't. In Titans #1, Wally has a series of flashbacks. One of which is of him running alongside Barry as Kid Flash. BOTH Wally and Barry are in their pre-Flashpoint looks. Barry is even sans the ugly ass chinstrap. Another flashback shows him holding Linda as the Flash and, again, [B]both of them look exactly as they did before Flashpoint.[/B] Also, how can the latter memory even be possible, when he wasn't even married to Linda in the Post-Flashpoint timeline??? Again, it can't be. Its a memory from Pre-Flashpoint.

Furthermore, he [I]doesn't[/I] say that the Titans ever fought Kadabra. [B]WALLY[/B] said that [B]HE[/B] fought Kadabra in the past. In #3, Dick asks him if he and Kadabra have a history and Wally says that they do. And, again, Wally and Kadabra DID have a history before Flashpoint. Kadabra actually kidnapped Linda Park on the day of her and Wally's wedding.

2) No he wasn't. Nowhere has that been established. They have not stated [I]what age[/I] Wally was when he became Kid Flash. That flashback that [B]Barry[/B] has in DCU: Rebirth does not establish Wally's age. And, hell, even Barry's flashback has Wally wearing the exact same "mini Flash" Kid Flash costume that he first wore back in the Silver Age. Plus, they've actually walked back on that particular change with Dick. In Detective Comics, he says that he's was Robin as a [I]kid[/I], not as a 17-year-old. My guess is their re-retconning it to be the age he was Pre-Flashpoint.

[QUOTE][B]No offense but you are grasping straws dude.[/B] You will end up with disappointment if you are really ambitious about this. Those 10 years won't be copy pasted from pre-flashpoint, they will change, like COIE and Zero Hour touches. If that was the case, we wouldn't have been getting Judas Contract reboot as they would have just reclaimed NTT as canon anyway. Things have changed fundamentally, DC will just add in what's liked and ignore what isn't, period.[/QUOTE]

I appreciate your trying to taper my expectations, but I'm really not reaching here. I'm going off of what's been printed on the comic page. Of course I anticipate changes, but those changes will be changes to the Pre-Flashpoint timeline. It will be soft retcons at best. Its not going to be some alternate timeline that just "looks" like the Pre-Flashpoint reality. It will be the Pre-Flashpoint DCU, but only with a few small tweaks here and there. The major beats of the characters' continuity, though, will match what Wally remembered when he was in the Speed Force. Like, why is this such a hard concept for New 52 supporters to grasp? Wally and Superman remember the reality that was (exactly as it was before Flashpoint) and DC will use Rebirth as a way to put that reality back more or less.

Will there be some differences? Maybe. But they will be negligible retcons. Like how Marvel retcons their continuity, but its still the same Marvel continuity that's been there since the 60s.

I mean, even from a business standpoint, its what makes the most sense. What makes the most sense? To drag out wildly unpopular changes from a time in DC's history that was critically panned and hated by fans or to return to the continuity that fans actually [I]liked[/I]?

[QUOTE=Lee;2391960]Would you prefer it if I said "It's unclear which things Wally remembers clearly and which things Wally has difficulty remembering"?

If Geoff Johns' intent was for Wally to still remember everything he did in the Speed Force, I don't think he'd have written that line.[/QUOTE]

Its a throwaway line that's there to inject a sense of urgency. It doesn't mean that those lost memories will not be reclaimed with Rebirth. That's very unlikely, especially since almost every single change wrought by the New 52 was so wildly unpopular for DC.

[QUOTE]Whilst he was in the Speed Force. We're talking about what he does and doesn't remember since returning.[/QUOTE]

What makes you think that, after Rebirth runs its course, the timeline [I]won't[/I] line up mostly with what Wally remembered from the Speed Force. I'd wager that it will, given the vitriol that, like 95% of fans have toward the New 52 era.

[QUOTE]The romance with Lilith for example is something that fits in the current Titans Hunt/Rebirth continuity, but was never shown to have happened prior to Flashpoint.[/QUOTE]

Again, that's something that shows up in the [I][B]other Titans'[/B][/I] flashbacks. That's what Lilith remembers. Might it be something Wally remembers? Probably. But, Wally [I]also[/I] remembers his marriage to Linda and Barry's death during COIE and becoming Flash and his kids and his Pre-Flashpoint Flash family. None of that happened in the Titans Hunt/Rebirth continuity. That's all Pre-Flashpoint. So, again, after Rebirth runs its course, its about 90% certainty that [I]those[/I] things will be brought back.

Might it be true that they keep some of the Titans Hunt stuff too? Yeah. But that will not make it a separate timeline from before Flashpoint. It'll be nothing more than a "between the pages" retcon that is common in comics. For example, in Hulk: Gray, Jeph Loeb retconned it so Hulk and Iron Man met [I]before[/I] Avengers #1, even though 40+ years of comics had established that Avengers #1 was their first meeting.** Another example was the Fraction retcon to Dr. Doom's origin, which had Ben Grimm tampering with the machine that scarred Victor (and it not being on Doom's supposedly faulty design). Did those examples create a separate Marvel Universe that just "resembled" the original? No. It was just a retcon that established a fact that readers previously "didn't know."

They can just say the same thing for the Lilith/Wally relationship: it was something that the readers "didn't know" was happening between the pages of 70s Titans comics.

**Loeb explained it that Iron Man's involvement in Hulk's origin was something they wanted kept off the books, so they just swept it under the rug. So when Hulk and Iron Man met (again) in Avengers #1, it was recorded as their first meeting.

[QUOTE]Maybe. Maybe not. We won't know until the storyline reaches its conclusion.[/QUOTE]

Every time something is said to be stolen in a comic book story and a "villain" is chosen as responsible for the theft (as Dr. Manhattan has been), then its like 90% certain that the thing stolen will be restored.

[QUOTE=GlennSimpson;2392107]This is probably another good time to point out that part of the plot of Infinite Crisis was that the heroes learned that there was a multiverse before. And while it did result in a new multiverse, it did NOT result in that old multiverse being returned.

Thus having the heroes learn that a previous timeline existed does not mean that said timeline is automatically going to be returned.[/QUOTE]

...AND they also brought back the Silver Age into continuity. The Silver Age origins of the JLA? Back in canon after Infinite Crisis (see Meltzer's JLA run). The Silver Age adventures of the Doom Patrol? Back in canon. During Infinite Crisis, Beast Boy and the Doom Patrol regained their memories, including Rita and Steve's memories of adopting Gar and of the Doom Patrol's deaths on Oolong Island. That's what continuity [I][B]is[/B][/I]: the memories of past experiences.

Anyway, guys. This is the exact stuff I didn't want cluttering up this thread. If you want to talk about THIS stuff, head to the "Rebirth Universe" thread that the Nuke started. This thread is to catalogue the Pre-Flashpoint stuff they are recanonizing. And they are recanonizing A LOT of Pre-Flashpoint stuff. Just pick up any DC comic post-Rebirth. Pretty much anything that was changed in New 52 is being undone in favor of stuff that was published before Flashpoint. I'd expect a lot more to be done by the time Rebirth is over.

[QUOTE=Zeeguy91;2392329]What makes you think that, after Rebirth runs its course, the timeline [I]won't[/I] line up mostly with what Wally remembered from the Speed Force. I'd wager that it will, given the vitriol that, like 95% of fans have toward the New 52 era.[/quote]

I'm not discussing how things may or may not turn out 18 months from now. I'm discussing how things currently stand.

[QUOTE=Lee;2392361]I'm not discussing how things may or may not turn out 18 months from now. I'm discussing how things currently stand.[/QUOTE]

Well, how things currently stand is that DC is recanonizing a lot of Pre-Flashpoint stuff and that's not even counting the 10 years that have been established as stolen from the DC Universe. Pretty much all of the origins and developments that were rewritten in the New 52 are now being reverted back to how they were before Flashpoint more or less.

And what do you think is in those 10 years? DC isn't going to publish a "lost 10 years" title with [I]new[/I] stories that happened in that lost time. They're going to establish that the Pre-Flashpoint stories that were absent from the New 52 are in those 10 years.

So, once those 10 years are restored, the DCU be essentially what it was before Flashpoint. Some of the changes from Rebirth may remain, but they'll be retconned as things that [I]happened in the Pre-Flashpoint DCU[/I]. For example, what I was saying in my above post about the Lilith/Wally thing.

Anyway, let's just leave it at that. Again, this is not what this thread is for. If you want to talk about this, go to the "Rebirth Universe" thread.

Hi everyone,

Glad to see this thread started by Zeeguy...I happen to be in his camp as far as the theory that the whole New 52 Universe was, in reality, just a twisted continuation of the pre-Flash Point universe. That being said, I respect the thoughts and ruminations of other fans out here who feel otherwise. I think it's great that we are even having this debate (though it should really be running on another thread as we are getting off point from the original message header) as it really denotes something that I felt was sorely missing from the New 52 comics: PASSION! I'm enjoying the mystery of Rebirth and I have a hunch a lot of other folks are, too.

[QUOTE=Stingo;2393186]Hi everyone,

Glad to see this thread started by Zeeguy...I happen to be in his camp as far as the theory that the whole New 52 Universe was, in reality, just a twisted continuation of the pre-Flash Point universe. That being said, I respect the thoughts and ruminations of other fans out here who feel otherwise. I think it's great that we are even having this debate (though it should really be running on another thread as we are getting off point from the original message header) as it really denotes something that I felt was sorely missing from the New 52 comics: PASSION! I'm enjoying the mystery of Rebirth and I have a hunch a lot of other folks are, too.[/QUOTE]

I don't think the question is whether or not the New52 was a "twisted continuation" of the pre-Flashpoint. The only question is whether a) what it was before matters at all and b) whether there is any intention on DC's part to "untwist" it completely. To both of which I think not.

Question: is COIE or its equivalent a part of those ten missing years?

[color=red]Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)[/color]