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[QUOTE=Vampire Savior;4568942]I think three characters running around calling themselves The Flash is stupid.[/QUOTE]
Six, but one hasn't been seen in a while.
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[QUOTE=Ascended;4568682]But if the problem is just that Superman is too powerful....then that's just BS. Clark's not even the most powerful guy in the League's speed dial. We've got reality warpers like Firestorm, Fate, Zatanna, etc., and people like Diana, Shazam, and J'onn, who are all *almost* as physically strong, have fewer weaknesses, and almost as much (or more) utility. Tell me, Diana is almost as strong as Clark, has no weaknesses at all, and is a better fighter. How is she not over powered but Clark is? Shazam is almost as strong as Clark (equally strong if you listen to his fans), has no weaknesses, and has access to the ultimate plot device power; magic. J'onn is almost as strong as Clark, has fewer weaknesses (though, I'll admit, fire is a pretty major flaw....but still, it's one weaknesses compared to Clark's 3-5), and has even more powers than Clark himself does. [B]If those guys aren't OP, neither is Superman. And if you think he is....then that's just a personal bias.....likely caused by not reading enough Superman.[/B][/QUOTE]
Preach. Leave him as is, I say. Anything else has typical fandom agenda logic behind it, and is not worth considering.
[QUOTE=Vampire Savior;4568942]I think three characters running around calling themselves The Flash is stupid. The same way three characters regularly flying around calling themselves Superman would be stupid. I can completely understand why Dan DiDio wouldn't want something like that. It's just not a good concept. It might work for a story line, but not for something to have regularly. It works for Green Lantern (barely, if at all) because it's rooted in the concept of the heroes being part of a Corps in which the members are called "Green Lanterns".[/QUOTE]
Also accurate. Which is why, if they are keeping as much DC continuity as possible, it really should be Wally as the Flash and Barry dead. Even with Barry around, it's not surprising that they can't find anything to do with Wally. Because having two "The" Flashes is really stupid.
As is having two Wally Wests who are Iris's nephews and have gone by the name Kid Flash.
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Well, I got into the Flash during the Waid run, where the idea of the Flash family dynasty was really getting ramped up. Barry's memory was a big factor in the book and you had Jay, Bart, Max, Jesse, Johnny (for a little bit), XS, frequent visits from future Flashes like John Fox, all running besides Wally. So I'm not turned off at all by the idea of a small army of speedsters. Nor am I bothered by Wally and Barry sharing the name. The precedent was set as soon as Jay and Barry existed in the same multiverse and publishing cycle, and Wally earned the right to bear the name long ago. I also don't think it does any damage to this IP. Most franchises wouldn't benefit from splitting their name (two Supermen is an awful idea outside of multiverse stuff) but Flash has been making this work in its favor since Barry and Jay shared a cover.
There's room for Barry and Wally both to be Flash in DC.
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[QUOTE=Ascended;4568682]I loved this exchange! You two crack me up! :D
This. I'm a well known Golden Age fan and I've said before that bringing Clark back down to "leap tall buildings" levels could be a lot of fun but if you do, you're completely shifting the thematics behind the character and the DCU itself. Superman's whole deal is that he's supposed to be the strongest guy around, and his story is all about his restraint and how he decides to apply that power and where he decides not to. [/QUOTE]
I was under the impression his whole deal was being the morally sound person around. If his power is his whole deal, then technically the likes of Injustice Superman is as true to the character as anything.
[QUOTE]You de-power him without doing it across the board and it changes *everything* about DC. [/QUOTE]
How? What is changed about the DC with a weaker Superman? How many stories about the DCU as a whole require Superman to be the most powerful? How does it impact stories, if it impacts them at all?
[QUOTE]But if the problem is just that Superman is too powerful....then that's just BS. Clark's not even the most powerful guy in the League's speed dial. We've got reality warpers like Firestorm, Fate, Zatanna, etc., and people like Diana, Shazam, and J'onn, who are all *almost* as physically strong, have fewer weaknesses, and almost as much (or more) utility. Tell me, Diana is almost as strong as Clark, has no weaknesses at all, and is a better fighter. How is she not over powered but Clark is? Shazam is almost as strong as Clark (equally strong if you listen to his fans), has no weaknesses, and has access to the ultimate plot device power; magic. J'onn is almost as strong as Clark, has fewer weaknesses (though, I'll admit, fire is a pretty major flaw....but still, it's one weaknesses compared to Clark's 3-5), and has even more powers than Clark himself does. If those guys aren't OP, neither is Superman. And if you think he is....then that's just a personal bias.....likely caused by not reading enough Superman.[/QUOTE]
Billy can be weakened by preventing him from saying his magic word. Not too long ago, Diana was nearly killed by a sniper’s bullet in Priest’s Justice League, to say nothing of her constantly being jobbed out to Superman enemies like Doomsday and Bizarro. As Batman said in New Frontier, all you have to do to stop J’onn is carry around a box matches. Zatanna also can be neutralized by removing her voice and has the same physiology as a normal human.
I honestly feel like this idea that the DCU is built on Superman being the strongest is more head canon than anything.
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[QUOTE=Agent Z;4569147]I was under the impression his whole deal was being the morally sound person around. If his power is his whole deal, then technically the likes of Injustice Superman is as true to the character as anything.[/QUOTE]
Just like I said in the line you already quoted, it's about the restraint and the things he chooses *not* to do. Yes, that's not his *whole* deal, you'll have to forgive my hyperbole. But a big chunk of Superman is about him holding back, making the mature choice instead of going for the instant gratification, etc. When he's less powerful there's less to hold back.
And there's miles of difference from "his physical power is a major driver of his narrative and core themes" and "He's really been Injustice Man the whole time!" Come on man.
[QUOTE]How? What is changed about the DC with a weaker Superman? How many stories about the DCU as a whole require Superman to be the most powerful? How does it impact stories, if it impacts them at all?[/QUOTE]
Every story where Clark swoops in and stops the impossible-to-stop monster. Every story where someone whispers a prayer and suddenly Superman is there from half a world away. With most of his power gone, you also lose that religion-y element of the character. And yeah, we all hate the over-done, pedestrian attempts to highlight this element, we all hate space jesus Superman, but these are still major themes at play and they inform the character even when we're not being hit over the head with them, and these lean very heavily on his power level.
[QUOTE]Billy can be weakened by preventing him from saying his magic word. Not too long ago, Diana was nearly killed by a sniper’s bullet in Priest’s Justice League, to say nothing of her constantly being jobbed out to Superman enemies like Doomsday and Bizarro. As Batman said in New Frontier, all you have to do to stop J’onn is carry around a box matches. Zatanna also can be neutralized by removing her voice and has the same physiology as a normal human.[/QUOTE]
All you're pointing out is that none of these characters are truly immortal and impervious. We know that. And its not even a viable comparison. How many times has Clark nearly died in recent months? Plenty. Almost every issue he appears in, really. Usually blunt force trauma. And Zee could literally pull a "No more metahumans" on us and change the entire planet (so could Fate). J'onn has read the mind of every single person on earth all at once and could mindwipe everyone back to the stone age. Captain Atom could literally blow the planet in half (so could Firestorm or GL). Hell, Spectre could swallow the earth whole. But it's Superman who is over powered? How does that work?
[QUOTE]I honestly feel like this idea that the DCU is built on Superman being the strongest is more head canon than anything.[/QUOTE]
Well technically it's built on the idea of Clark being the best. And he'd still be the best if he were brought back down to Golden Age levels, he'd just do things very, very differently and that would change the themes you're working with.
And how would it change DC? Man, this entire fictional universe is built around a highly protected hierarchy that governs everything else. No one gets to top the Trinity at the things the Trinity does, then you've got the core League, and their specialties become limitations for everyone below them (no hero gets to be faster than Flash), etc.
So yeah, changing the top hero, who's *always* been known for his strength, and who's power levels influence everyone else's? Yeah, that'd be a big shift.
Dont get me wrong, I adore Golden Age Superman and if DC published a quality title with that kind of Superman in it I'd read it gleefully. But dropping his power level *would* be a big change to how the DCU is structured.
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[QUOTE=Ascended;4569179]Just like I said in the line you already quoted, it's about the restraint and the things he chooses *not* to do. Yes, that's not his *whole* deal, you'll have to forgive my hyperbole. But a big chunk of Superman is about him holding back, making the mature choice instead of going for the instant gratification, etc. [/QUOTE]
That describes a number of DC heroes not just Superman. Restraint is a very common theme among superheroes.
[QUOTE]When he's less powerful there's less to hold back. [/QUOTE]
Then he has less to hold back. It isn’t like you need to be all powerful to do stories about holding back and frankly even this type of tale can get played out since it makes for some dumb moments like him supposedly “holding back” against Darkseid.
[QUOTE]And there's miles of difference from "his physical power is a major driver of his narrative and core themes" and "He's really been Injustice Man the whole time!" Come on man.[/QUOTE]
Injustice Superman has his physical power as a major drive of his narrative and core themes as well. My point is, if you are going to prioritize Superman’s power level above everything else, that is what to expect.
[QUOTE]Every story where Clark swoops in and stops the impossible-to-stop monster. [/QUOTE]
Not unique to him. Everyone from Superman to the Atom has pulled this off.
[QUOTE]Every story where someone whispers a prayer and suddenly Superman is there from half a world away. [/QUOTE]
Seems more like a Superman centric plot that something affecting or requiring the entire DCU.
[QUOTE]With most of his power gone, you also lose that religion-y element of the character. And yeah, we all hate the over-done, pedestrian attempts to highlight this element, we all hate space jesus Superman, but these are still major themes at play and they inform the character even when we're not being hit over the head with them, and these lean very heavily on his power level.[/QUOTE]
Isn’t Superman supposed to hate being compared to a god?
[QUOTE]All you're pointing out is that none of these characters are truly immortal and impervious. We know that. And its not even a viable comparison. How many times has Clark nearly died in recent months? [/QUOTE]
You mean compared to everyone else in total? Because as of recent, Diana nearly got killed by Cheetah in Wilson’s run and has needed other people to come to her rescue throughout it. Batman got chased out of Gotham by Bane. This thing about nearly getting killed on a regular is pretty new for Superman as far as his publishing history goes.
[QUOTE]Plenty. Almost every issue he appears in, really. Usually blunt force trauma.[/QUOTE]
That he typically shrugs off.
[QUOTE] And Zee could literally pull a "No more metahumans" on us and change the entire planet (so could Fate).[/QUOTE]
Zatanna has never been depicted as being that powerful. I don’t think Fate has been either.
[QUOTE] J'onn has read the mind of every single person on earth all at once and could mindwipe everyone back to the stone age. Captain Atom could literally blow the planet in half (so could Firestorm or GL). Hell, Spectre could swallow the earth whole. But it's Superman who is over powered? How does that work? [/QUOTE]
None of them have done things you are claiming (except the mind reading by J’onn). Superman is consistently portrayed as being the most powerful being on the planet with his fans insisting on it and attempts to show others as being more powerful than him get met with a strong amount of hostility. Think I’m exaggerating? Look at what happened when Geoff Johns said DCEU Wonder Woman was as powerful as Superman while still being a more experienced combatant
[url]https://community.cbr.com/showthread.php?81647-Geoff-Johns-quot-Wonder-Woman-has-the-powers-of-Superman-and-is-a-better-fighter-than-him-quot[/url]
Well technically it's built on the idea of Clark being the best. And he'd still be the best if he were brought back down to Golden Age levels, he'd just do things very, very differently and that would change the themes you're working with.
[QUOTE]And how would it change DC? Man, this entire fictional universe is built around a highly protected hierarchy that governs everything else. No one gets to top the Trinity at the things the Trinity does, then you've got the core League, and their specialties become limitations for everyone below them (no one gets to be faster than Flash), etc. [/QUOTE]
The Trinity concept isn’t based on power levels. It’s based on the three characters who have been consistently published by DC since their first appearance. Given you listed a bunch of characters you think are more powerful than Superman, I think it’s safe to say this hierarchy has already been broken if it exists at all.
I can think of one way making him not the best might benefit Superman though. It might mean we no longer have to deal with numerous stories about Superman going evil and the world going to hell because of it.
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[QUOTE=Agent Z;4569147]I was under the impression his whole deal was being the morally sound person around. If his power is his whole deal, then technically the likes of Injustice Superman is as true to the character as anything.
How? What is changed about the DC with a weaker Superman? How many stories about the DCU as a whole require Superman to be the most powerful? How does it impact stories, if it impacts them at all?
Billy can be weakened by preventing him from saying his magic word. Not too long ago, Diana was nearly killed by a sniper’s bullet in Priest’s Justice League, to say nothing of her constantly being jobbed out to Superman enemies like Doomsday and Bizarro. As Batman said in New Frontier, all you have to do to stop J’onn is carry around a box matches. Zatanna also can be neutralized by removing her voice and has the same physiology as a normal human.
I honestly feel like this idea that the DCU is built on Superman being the strongest is more head canon than anything.[/QUOTE]
What is changed about dc is that it got a new batgod who became more popular after beating superman in single fight. Precisely,best moment of superman in last decade had him whistle darkseid to death. Not when he was too weak to fight the joker or mind controlled by ivy. What you want is to remove mystique of the character and selling points. Superman isn't the first superhero in universe anymore. He is not the most inspirational since most guys aren't inspired by superman . So what do you propose as a new selling point?
Fine, you nerf superman. Then what? Superman becomes another guy running around in tights like every one else? How are you going to make that attractive for new audiences? We have new characters with more complex ethos, pathos and more gimmicky vibrant powers. How is this ip going to compete with those ip's in the market, without drastically changing the personality and base philosophy of the character?How are you going to keep the grandeur of superman and still keep him nerfed? these are the things that needs to be answered by the people who advocate for nerfing superman.
Dude, superman started getting more and more powerful from the golden age itself. It is absolutely part of the character.heck!there was this whole rivalry between superman ip and shazam ip.And the best modern tale of the character "all star superman" draws inspiration from silver age where he was the most powerful. Guess, what? It worked better than any post crisis nerf till he suffocates stories. The post crisis and dcau had a big problem. Their superman was too powerful for street level and too weak for cosmic and too unappealing regardless for new audiences (not flashy enough ) . What makes you think this won't lead to that outcome?
No, other characters fans would want their characters to be nerfed. They want the reverse .nerfing the characters like you want has only reduced his popularity. He was most popular in the silver age. Superman's story is about a guy doing amazing feats against insurmountable odds. He had good street level stories in golden age. Because his powerlevel was that . But, they didn't do cosmic stuff with it until he got more powerful. The nerfing you want i doubt would be any good like in post crisis. I repeat, [B]Superman can't have a middle ground with power and be interesting.[/B] he isn't spiderman. Either, you nerf to golden age( powerful guns hurt him) or blow him up to silverage power.there is nothing amazing about a strong guy in tights flying, if everyone else is doing it. And almost everyone else is doing it better and with more style,in this age. This metaphorical chains have never helped the struggling ip. So, should be broken.
[IMG]https://www.supermanhomepage.com/images/breaking-chains/ManOfSteelVol5TP.jpg[/IMG]
As for weakness, superman can be hurt by punching real hard ala doomsday, mongol.. Etc. No need for space rocks or match sticks.that's all that is needed powerful complex enemies.
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[QUOTE=manwhohaseverything;4569212]What is changed about dc is that it got a new batgod who became more popular after beating superman in single fight. Precisely,best moment of superman in last decade had him whistle darkseid to death. Not when he was too weak to fight the joker or mind controlled by ivy. [/QUOTE]
Pretty much every character’s best moment is not when they’re beaten or mind controlled by a villain. What exactly is your point? I’m not asking for Superman to be mind controlled or too weak to fight the likes of the Joker.
[QUOTE]What you want is to remove mystique of the character and selling points. Superman isn't the first superhero in universe anymore. [/QUOTE]
I find it questionable that being the most powerful hero in the DCU is Superman’s selling point.
[QUOTE]He is not the most inspirational since most guys aren't inspired by superman . [/QUOTE]
This was the case even before they made it that he wasn’t the first superhero.
[QUOTE]So what do you propose as a new selling point?[/QUOTE]
See my first reply to Ascended.
Fine, you nerf superman.
I feel you're using a rather narrow-minded view of “nerfing”. I'm not asking for Superman to be powered down back to Golden Age levels.
[QUOTE]Then what? Superman becomes another guy running around in tights like every one else? How are you going to make that attractive for new audiences? We have new characters with more complex ethos, pathos and more gimmicky vibrant powers. How is this ip going to compete with those ip's in the market, without drastically changing the personality and base philosophy of the character?How are you going to keep the grandeur of superman and still keep him nerfed? these are the things that needs to be answered by the people who advocate for nerfing superman. [/QUOTE]
Audiences have been getting a ramped up Superman for decades. His popularity is still struggling despite it. People will bring up something like All Star Superman forgetting that he does very little fighting in that story and that it ended with him dying. It also was allowed to end something the main title isn’t allowed to do.
[QUOTE]The post crisis and dcau had a big problem. Their superman was too powerful for street level and too weak for cosmic and too unappealing regardless for new audiences (not flashy enough ) . What makes you think this won't lead to that outcome?[/QUOTE]
Here’s a thread of post crisis Superman feats.
[url]https://www.reddit.com/r/respectthreads/comments/3ovxvl/respect_superman_complete_postcrisis/[/url]
And as for DCAU, I’m never going to get tired of posting this every time someone complains about him being nerfed.
[video=youtube;Cl_5UwS57X8]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cl_5UwS57X8[/video]
[QUOTE]No, other characters fans would want their characters to be nerfed.[/QUOTE]
Every other characters’ fans don’t have their favorites being called the most powerful beings on the planet. Captain Atom and Martian Manhunter’s names are practically synonymous with “jobber”.
It's rather fascinating to me that for a character who is supposed to be inspirational, the idea of other people matching or surpassing Superman is so controversial.
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[QUOTE=Ascended;4568682]
But if the problem is just that Superman is too powerful....then that's just BS. Clark's not even the most powerful guy in the League's speed dial. We've got reality warpers like Firestorm, Fate, Zatanna, etc., and people like Diana, Shazam, and J'onn, who are all *almost* as physically strong, have fewer weaknesses, and almost as much (or more) utility. Tell me, Diana is almost as strong as Clark, has no weaknesses at all, and is a better fighter. How is she not over powered but Clark is? Shazam is almost as strong as Clark (equally strong if you listen to his fans), has no weaknesses, and has access to the ultimate plot device power; magic. J'onn is almost as strong as Clark, has fewer weaknesses (though, I'll admit, fire is a pretty major flaw....but still, it's one weaknesses compared to Clark's 3-5), and has even more powers than Clark himself does. If those guys aren't OP, neither is Superman. And if you think he is....then that's just a personal bias.....likely caused by not reading enough Superman.[/QUOTE]
No Superhero in the big 2 comics is presented at his highest levels or near peak levels as much as Superman. No hero in the big 2 comic companies is presented as "The guy" as much Superman you can make an argument for BatGod but that is topic for another thread. The feature is the flaw, What makes Superman so Iconic is his presentation as "The best" "The hero of heroes" but it also that presentation that makes these criticism of him appear.
Flash is universal known by every knowledgeable comic fan as one of brokest overpowered characters in comics BUT Flash and other heroes consistently are presented below their powers peak levels. Flash primary gallery of villains has a guy who throws boomerangs and two guys with guns. If you watch the flash show you are require to forget that Flash is stupidly faster than the scenarios or you will lose your mind (For me it was when Flash was hit by a freaking blow dart). We understand that MM, Firestorm,Captain Atom,Flash are powerful as Superman but there presented consistently below their power level so you have less moments to pull from them operating at peak levels and you general get to see them as beatable. Superman is the opposite Superman is shown at peak levels and consistently is shown as "the man",Superman gets the big unforgettable moments in the stories. In the Justice League movie Superman fought the whole league by himself, Superman was the catalyst in beating Doomsday and Steppenwolf. Most big events Superman is shown doing something amazing and it is burnt into fans memory those things.
The OP is not wrong we have example in All Might that Superman would be amazing even if he didn't fly at light speed or could push planets. While All Might is presented as ridiculous powerful in his universe and the top hero like Superman but because his limitations are more in realistic levels. You get a sense of a danger fights and things would hurt him unlike Superman. The problem with Superman isn't he is too powerful,It is that Superman presented as too powerful believable to fight down lower ranking enemies that he has to fight it be a challenge. We will call the Deathstroke test. If Deathstroke had a sword fight with Wonder Woman and he won would it be consider a big deal? Wonder Woman can fight down to lower enemies. If Superman fights Deathstroke or Batman for entire time they are you are thinking "pink mist" "Why in the world isn't superman using his speed" "Why does superman even have to get close can't he use his heat vision or freeze breath" "Why is the guy who fought Darkseid losing to this guy". Fans love superman to be powerful but never think about that he has to be in a story with Harley Quinn and Harley Quinn has escape and well we can forget that Wonder Woman can outspeed her but we can't forget that man who race flash can also catch Harley.
We are use to other Superheroes underperforming, We are use to Superman overperforming.
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[QUOTE=Agent Z;4569242]Pretty much every character’s best moment is not when they’re beaten or mind controlled by a villain. What exactly is your point? I’m not asking for Superman to be mind controlled or too weak to fight the likes of the Joker.
I find it questionable that being the most powerful hero in the DCU is Superman’s selling point.
This was the case even before they made it that he wasn’t the first superhero.
See my first reply to Ascended.
Fine, you nerf superman.
What I find here is that Superman fans have a rather narrow-minded view of “nerfing”. You and ascended have been arguing this point like I want Superman to be powered down back to Golden Age levels when all I’ve argued is for his power set to be depicted as being more manageable.
Audiences have been getting a ramped up Superman for decades. His popularity is still struggling despite it. People will bring up something like All Star Superman forgetting that he does very little fighting in that story and that it ended with him dying. It also was allowed to end something the main title isn’t allowed to do.
Here’s a thread of post crisis Superman feats.
[url]https://www.reddit.com/r/respectthreads/comments/3ovxvl/respect_superman_complete_postcrisis/[/url]
And as for DCAU, I’m never going to get tired of posting this every time someone complains about him being nerfed.
[video=youtube;Cl_5UwS57X8]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cl_5UwS57X8[/video]
Every other characters’ fans don’t have their favorites being called the most powerful beings on the planet. Captain Atom and Martian Manhunter’s names are practically synonymous with “jobber”.
It's rather fascinating to me that for a character who is supposed to be inspirational, the idea of other people matching or surpassing Superman is so controversial.[/QUOTE]
Well, that is what's going to happen. Nerfing will only lead to furthur nerf and superman will become like a wet towel like at the end of post crisis.
My point is superman's are generic. He isn't complex. He is pretty straight forward and people hate that Especially, now. He isn't cool(i mean, batman is freaking ninja) . Superman is also a power fantasy for kids. That's how he was conceived . The reason we run around wearing capes as kids. Cause he can kick ass and overcome his complex obstacles. Take that away you got nothing interesting for kids or adults.
Take allmight, he is the strongest hero. He is as generic and straight forward as superman. No complaints from people. In fact, everyone loves him. Goku is also the strongest zfighter. It is strong selling point. In fact, They pulled down gohan because of that. If these things weren't selling point people will not be fighting over wally being fastest over barry.
Not really, him being the first gave a weight to ip. Even then, other superheroes are modelled after him in the real world. He put the "super" in superheroes.the only reason he wasn't in universe is because these separated ips were not a universe to begin with(jsa). Doomsday clock basically solved that and it worked (jay was inspired by clark) . On the other hand, he at least had the legion that was inspired by him in universe.not to mention nightwing and flamebird. So, an inspiration he always was both in and out of universe to run around in tights.
If your idea of selling point is superman being morally sound person. Then you don't know marketing. There are thousands of morally sound character with better motivations than superman. I am sorry that alone cannot be selling point. Its generic as ever. Its like saying "look guys, here is my pitch for cool superhero that appeals to mass audiences.his speciality is he is good/nice guy." the reaction to that will be "oh! So like every average person. Well, that's boring".
[IMG]https://pm1.narvii.com/5881/5e35aee14ce1b822c2f98edabc44d46bc228d2fa_hq.jpg[/IMG]
Take a look at this. Bakugou is analogue for a standard kids and allmight is the kids power fantasy like superman was/is. You think that kid is interested in allmight cause he is a "nice/good" guy?no.being "nice/good" doesn't draw kids or people in. It can only act as a great sustainer. What drew peoples attention towards isn't that he was "good/nice" but him lifing the car in the first issue of action comics.
I would be for powering down superman to golden age level, Actually. If that is done then only stories should be street level with social significance alone no cosmic. And vice versa if you are going silverage powerlevel , go big and cosmic no street level. What i am against is this middle ground approach which was taken after crisis. Superman can't fight street levelers because that would be too easy. He can't go to space cause that woud be too out of reach and needs oxygen? . It doesn't work for superman like it works for spiderman. Superman is generic when he is stuck in this balanced approach.
Are you kidding me? I didn't even realise superman was that powerful till i began reading comics. The only time he was too op was in jl movie. That was shit. So, i don't buy that for second.All star superman might not have been about fighting. But, it proves that a powerful superman works very well regardless. And there superman analogous characters like one punch man and all might who are also op. Work very well in there universe. And entertaining stories are being told with these powerful characters that dc never does.
The best feats in post crisis continuity are from when superman started getting more precrisis attributes. Not before. That card moment means nothing in dcau when have to sit through all the time where he couldn't catch deadshot and was taken out my messily obstacles. Tim had the same balanced approach. Even in that scene he got taken out right after. i must admit, new gods and cadmus where the only thing that brought anything remotely interesting in superman. But, that was because fights were more focued and character dynamics where fantastic. So, powerlevel was never an issue.
I don't have problems with other characters beating clark and surpassing him. But, i do have problems with clark being ok with it. Sure, he should be a sportsman about it. But, clark shouldn't be ok with being second fiddle. Where is the strong man in that?where is the boxing spirit in that? Strong men are athletes they should be competitive. Any athlete who settles for second best ain't an athlete. Clark is a strong man and a boxer. If clark takes an "L" he should be allowed to train or something to give it back in the second round. All i am saying is that he have some bushido or olymipian spirit . He should never be truly content with staying at same level or someone even his son surpassing him. The problem is modern writing is all about leaving clark in the dust and clark being very content about it. That's blah! For me. If wally/barry beats him in a race clark should not be content about it.
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[QUOTE=Killerbee911;4569293]No Superhero in the big 2 comics is presented at his highest levels or near peak levels as much as Superman. No hero in the big 2 comic companies is presented as "The guy" as much Superman you can make an argument for BatGod but that is topic for another thread. The feature is the flaw, What makes Superman so Iconic is his presentation as "The best" "The hero of heroes" but it also that presentation that makes these criticism of him appear.
Flash is universal known by every knowledgeable comic fan as one of brokest overpowered characters in comics BUT Flash and other heroes consistently are presented below their powers peak levels. Flash primary gallery of villains has a guy who throws boomerangs and two guys with guns. If you watch the flash show you are require to forget that Flash is stupidly faster than the scenarios or you will lose your mind (For me it was when Flash was hit by a freaking blow dart). We understand that MM, Firestorm,Captain Atom,Flash are powerful as Superman but there presented consistently below their power level so you have less moments to pull from them operating at peak levels and you general get to see them as beatable. Superman is the opposite Superman is shown at peak levels and consistently is shown as "the man",Superman gets the big unforgettable moments in the stories. In the Justice League movie Superman fought the whole league by himself, Superman was the catalyst in beating Doomsday and Steppenwolf. Most big events Superman is shown doing something amazing and it is burnt into fans memory those things.
The OP is not wrong we have example in All Might that Superman would be amazing even if he didn't fly at light speed or could push planets. While All Might is presented as ridiculous powerful in his universe and the top hero like Superman but because his limitations are more in realistic levels. You get a sense of a danger fights and things would hurt him unlike Superman. The problem with Superman isn't he is too powerful,It is that Superman presented as too powerful believable to fight down lower ranking enemies that he has to fight it be a challenge. We will call the Deathstroke test. If Deathstroke had a sword fight with Wonder Woman and he won would it be consider a big deal? Wonder Woman can fight down to lower enemies. If Superman fights Deathstroke or Batman for entire time they are you are thinking "pink mist" "Why in the world isn't superman using his speed" "Why does superman even have to get close can't he use his heat vision or freeze breath" "Why is the guy who fought Darkseid losing to this guy". Fans love superman to be powerful but never think about that he has to be in a story with Harley Quinn and Harley Quinn has escape and well we can forget that Wonder Woman can outspeed her but we can't forget that man who race flash can also catch Harley.
We are use to other Superheroes underperforming, We are use to Superman overperforming.[/QUOTE]
Personally the problem isn't Superman, it's Deathstroke, Harley Quinn and the like. It's Wonder Woman or the Flash jobbing to the bad guys by bad writers.
If Superman is that powerful, then don't try to put him in a story where he is challenged by the Joker, Harley Quinn, or Deathstroke for no reason. Ans stop pumping these bad guys up by letting powerful heroes drop to their levels.
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[QUOTE=Agent Z;4569242]
And as for DCAU, I’m never going to get tired of posting this every time someone complains about him being nerfed.
[video=youtube;Cl_5UwS57X8]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cl_5UwS57X8[/video]
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I hate that scene with every fiber of my being.
"Hey sorry about all the damage caused in my 5 minute fight with Metallo, but I figured it was better to just hold back and not put forth any real effort. And luckily Mala and Jax-Ur were just as interested in holding back so I didn't have to really use my full powers there either. I hope doing all these superfeats at like 10% power hasn't caused any serious injuries or deaths."
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[QUOTE=lemonpeace;4543659][IMG]https://i.imgur.com/3USgt2g.gif[/IMG][/QUOTE]
No real contribution to the actual topic but [B]THIS[/B] made my morning.
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Ok a little contibution.
If you're saying what I [B]think[/B] you mean, I'm with you.
It's easier to write more compelling stories where there are clearer limits to characters/ characters are not "overpowered".
Nothing against Supes. Applies to all characters in the same bracket.
That said Irredeemable (Mark Waid) was a compelling story from what I remember...
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[QUOTE=manwhohaseverything;4569300]Well, that is what's going to happen. Nerfing will only lead to furthur nerf and superman will become like a wet towel like at the end of post crisis. [/QUOTE]
You and I must have been reading very different post crisis comics then because I recall him doing stuff like beating a robot made of kryptonite, destroying a ship meant to “sterilize” universes and escaping the pull of a black hole. This is the Superman fans claim was “nerfed”.
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My point is superman's are generic. He isn't complex.
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“Most powerful man in the world” is not complex and is as generic as you get. All Star Superman isn’t even complex either. He’s as straightforward as you get.
[QUOTE]Superman is also a power fantasy for kids. [/QUOTE]
As is virtually every superhero ever. Including the ones far less powerful than Superman. Power levels don’t play into what makes you a fantasy character.
[QUOTE]The reason we run around wearing capes as kids. Cause he can kick ass and overcome his complex obstacles. Take that away you got nothing interesting for kids or adults. [/QUOTE]
I feel like I’m talking to a wall here. Where did I say Superman shouldn’t be allowed to overcome his obstacles?
[QUOTE]Take allmight, he is the strongest hero. He is as generic and straight forward as superman. [/QUOTE]
He’s also not the main protagonist of his story and universe.
[QUOTE] Goku is also the strongest zfighter. It is strong selling point. In fact, They pulled down gohan because of that.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]Yeah and Gohan fans hated it.[/QUOTE]
If these things weren't selling point people will not be fighting over wally being fastest over barry.
People care far more about Wally not being the Flash, not having his family back and being turned into a killer over him not being faster than Barry.
[QUOTE]Not really, him being the first gave a weight to ip. [/QUOTE]
Superman isn’t the first superhero. And I thought we were talking about him being the first in-universe?
If your idea of selling point is superman being morally sound person. Then you don't know marketing. There are thousands of morally sound character with better motivations than superman. I am sorry that alone cannot be selling point. Its generic as ever.
Again, so is being extremely powerful. Hell, you’ve listed a bunch of character that fit that description and claimed they are successful. You know about marketing as much as I do.
[QUOTE]I would be for powering down superman to golden age level, Actually. If that is done then only stories should be street level with social significance alone no cosmic. And vice versa if you are going silverage powerlevel , go big and cosmic no street level. What i am against is this middle ground approach which was taken after crisis. Superman can't fight street levelers because that would be too easy. He can't go to space cause that woud be too out of reach and needs oxygen? . It doesn't work for superman like it works for spiderman. Superman is generic when he is stuck in this balanced approach. [/QUOTE]
You do realize that there are character who have space adventures without needing the ability to breathe in space right?
[QUOTE]Are you kidding me? I didn't even realise superman was that powerful till i began reading comics. The only time he was too op was in jl movie. That was shit. So, i don't buy that for second.All star superman might not have been about fighting. But, it proves that a powerful superman works very well regardless. [/QUOTE]
Yeah, in a limited story with a planned beginning, middle and end.
[QUOTE]And there superman analogous characters like one punch man and all might who are also op. Work very well in there universe. And entertaining stories are being told with these powerful characters that dc never does. [/QUOTE]
All Might has a specific weakness that Superman is often lacking. Compared to DC and Marvel, the supers in MHA are very underpowered. And as for OPM, see again my point about All Star Superman.
[QUOTE]The best feats in post crisis continuity are from when superman started getting more precrisis attributes. Not before. [/QUOTE]
Irrelevant. It doesn’t change the fact that nerfing Superman post crisis didn’t hurt him or even stop them ramping up his power levels.
[QUOTE]I don't have problems with other characters beating clark and surpassing him. But, i do have problems with clark being ok with it. Sure, he should be a sportsman about it. But, clark shouldn't be ok with being second fiddle. Where is the strong man in that?where is the boxing spirit in that? Strong men are athletes they should be competitive. Any athlete who settles for second best ain't an athlete. Clark is a strong man and a boxer. If clark takes an "L" he should be allowed to train or something to give it back in the second round. All i am saying is that he have some bushido or olymipian spirit . He should never be truly content with staying at same level or someone even his son surpassing him. The problem is modern writing is all about leaving clark in the dust and clark being very content about it. That's blah! For me. If wally/barry beats him in a race clark should not be content about it.[/QUOTE]
I don’t think you know Superman as well as you think you do.
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[QUOTE=Jon Clark;4569301]Personally the problem isn't Superman, it's Deathstroke, Harley Quinn and the like. It's Wonder Woman or the Flash jobbing to the bad guys by bad writers.
If Superman is that powerful, then don't try to put him in a story where he is challenged by the Joker, Harley Quinn, or Deathstroke for no reason. Ans stop pumping these bad guys up by letting powerful heroes drop to their levels.[/QUOTE]
Then Superman isn't going to be in many stories even in his own book, I mean remember recently something made Superman mad and Mongul who is freaking powerhouse himself just happen to appear and it was implied that Superman beat him with no sweat. If he is beating Mongul like they aren't many things that can stop him. Now there is nothing wrong with doing a story about a protagonist doesn't lose but it completely different skill set and type of book needed. I haven't come across many writers who can write that book. Now I watch a lot of Anime and read lots of Manga they are two types that really stand out
Type 1.There is the type where protagonist keeps getting stronger and stronger ala Dragonball Z, Bleach ,etc
Type 2. There is the type where protagonist occasionally gets stronger but most of the power ups comes from mastery of their skill ala My Hero Academia,Hunter X Hunter, Demon Slayer
Type 1 gets in trouble because the hero levels himself out range of villains challenging him and quality friendly characters being useful. Also they keep on having to climb ridiculously levels to challenge the hero. And at some point they realize this and they have to walk back some of the power ups. Often the hero gets unexplained power up that mystery disappears after the challenge is over as way to keep them that level. Type 2 doesn't have this those problems because they don't overpower the character, The power up come from deeper understanding of the powers for superman it would be vibrating through a wall or combine heat vision and freeze breath to destroy metal that could be destroy by his strength alone the cooling and heating of the metal weakened because Superman understood Science. Type 2 is the better way imo and often the protagonist isn't the strongest character even though the characters amazingly strong. Type 2 can be challenge by enemies that they faced in the beginning.
Superman has the Type 1 problem, Since he has to be challenged, You have to find something stronger than him. And when he wins his power level is set at that point until he needs to be challenged again. And just gradually gets stronger and stronger. Then writers come along and they want to write their big amazing Superman story and he gets stronger and stronger. Someone walks back his powers and he is weaker for a while then process of him get stronger begins again. Having set hard limitations and clear weakness actually help the stories. Walking back some his Superman powers especially his speed and invulnerability would actual be helpful in the long run. Having a state where people like Deathstroke,Joker or Harley could hurt Superman would be helpful because Superman lives in a shared universe. Just saying it is not just jobbing by bad writers.My love of Superman came back when I started to read My Hero Academia a couple years back and that series clever imo fixes the big issues of Superman. I am not saying Superman should be that exactly but knowing what can clearly challenge hero and what his limits is make for a fun read/watch.
