For fans who have seen THE LAST JEDI only: opinion on Luke Skywalker

[QUOTE=the nomad;4130052]Luke's Portrayal in the Last Jedi, I think will always be a blight in the Star Wars lore going forward.


Strictly speaking from the movies that we've seen before TFA and LAST JEDI. Luke has never really struck me as a quitter, so the idea/notion of him quitting the force does not sit well with me at all. Sure he can stumble and have self-doubt and what not but out right quitting and Isolating himself, does not stick with his character. Even in the Force Awakens, when it said that Luke has Vanished, I've always found that odd.


The reasoning behind his vanishing is as equally terrible as the portrayal of him quitting (And drinking green space cow milk). Someone like Han Solo or Lando I could see quitting something or running back to something comfortable which incidentally is exactly what Han did and no one really questioned it because he's a smuggler....and what do smugglers do they run.

But Luke, who we've see go from farm boy, to Hero, to Padawan, to full fledged Jedi Knight. We've seen his arc and a natural continuation of that arc would be some sort of teacher figure and the best the writers come up with is failed, cynical hermit. Yeah no thank you.[/QUOTE]

Ben and Yoda failed then ran to build up the next generation.

Luke failed then ran. Gave up but now he sees hope when he should have in the first place. Remains to be seen what he does next.

There were some rumors leading up to TLJ's release that there was some reason to Luke's exile, that his search for the first Jedi temple was so he could seek some kind of advantage or weapon against Snoke. (Although some of the rumors seemed to be a bit too Harry Potterish-that Luke was looking for artifacts that were the key to defeating Snoke, like Voldemort's Horcruxes). Still, would have been an interesting alternate explanation.

[QUOTE=MASTER-OF-SUPRISE;4126909]I'm not going to claim Kylo is innocent during this trilogy. Granted he's not as evil as Vader. He has his fair share of crimes during this trilogy. That does not negate Luke's responsibility in this. I find nothing heroic about his actions in that scene. Luke's word that Ben had already turned before the tent scene is now a lot more questionable.[/QUOTE]


Okay my basic argument is this. Did Luke attack Kylo? He stopped himself before that. He considered killing Kylo. Yes. He took out his sword on a sleeping Kylo Ren. Yes. But he checked himself.

And my secondary argument is that Luke was right. The immediate thing that Kylo did afterwards is to destroy, kill and form his own gang. That does not sound like something that an innocent person would do. Luke sensed that. And thus he wanted to nip it in the bud for a 'few moments'.

Furthermore, he immediately regretted that.

[QUOTE=Sacred Knight;4127036]Its a little more than speculation. You don't travel down the path of the dark side without actually doing dark deeds along the way. He had been turned, that was how it was described. Honestly its more speculation on my part to assume he wasn't fully gone than it is to assume he had done bad things. I mean, you're not turned without doing some bad deeds. I just don't see how it would work that way. Say for example that Snoke's means of contacting Ben were through telepathy, and the extent of Ben's turning was that Snoke was just putting ideas in his head. That alone, without him putting the ideas into practice in any way shape or form, wouldn't constitute a turning to the dark side. Anakin was having dark ideas being put in his head by Palpatine on the sly for years and at one point did a tangible dark deed in regards to the slaughtering of the Sand People, yet he never was classified as turned until the firm decision was made during the Sidious/Mace confrontation. So considering Ben is described as already turned here, the stronger indicator is that by the time Luke had his dark thought of snuffing out Ben, Ben had been doing some bad stuff and had already embracing the dark side of his own volition.

I reiterate though that I would greatly agree with any criticism levied toward the idea that the narration didn't do enough to make this stuff clearer. For example, if he turned, why was he still at the Academy? Its not without a potential logical answer, that Luke was grasping at straws trying to save his nephew despite knowing at this point that Ben was basically a mole, while likewise Ben was still there to be eyes and ears for Snoke, but its never even brought up. This is all stuff that once again fans will have to get from a book. Which hey is nice, but movies are supposed to stand on their own and supply the necessary info. It should not be required to get key info from a book or a comic.[/QUOTE]

The problem is we have to take Luke at his word which at this point isn't worth much when he has hidden key information before. Who's to say he isn't omitting more details. He's too unreliable of a narrator. I do agree that people shouldn't have to get information of a book. It's like having story elements for a game be DLC. Which has happened before and was BS then too.

[QUOTE=Soubhagya;4132643]Okay my basic argument is this. Did Luke attack Kylo? He stopped himself before that. He considered killing Kylo. Yes. He took out his sword on a sleeping Kylo Ren. Yes. But he checked himself.

And my secondary argument is that Luke was right. The immediate thing that Kylo did afterwards is to destroy, kill and form his own gang. That does not sound like something that an innocent person would do. Luke sensed that. And thus he wanted to nip it in the bud for a 'few moments'.

Furthermore, he immediately regretted that.[/QUOTE]

Here's my counter argument for each of those. Saying he regretted it is like saying it's okay to put a gun to a sleeping mans head if you regret it later. It's not okay this isn't like the Vader thing where you can lose focus in the heat of battle.

Counter argument number 2. Was Luke right or jumping to conclusions? From my perspective it seems the latter is more likely. Sure it could be how you describe but it could also be that Kylo killed them in self defense. Now this next part is speculation but it is possible that they didn't believe Kylo's story then attacked. My point is we don't have any impartial word on what happened.

Also is it just me or does anyone else see Kylo's fate as a catch 22 situation for the story?

At this point Luke's word is at least worth more than Kylo's. And those are the only narrators of this course of events. Unless a third party were to have been witness to events, Luke's word wins by default.

But in either case I hope IX sheds complete light on this. If it doesn't and its left to a novel or comic to flesh it out I'll be more than a little bit annoyed.

[QUOTE=BeastieRunner;4130998]Ben and Yoda failed then ran to build up the next generation.

Luke failed then ran. Gave up but now he sees hope when he should have in the first place. Remains to be seen what he does next.[/QUOTE]


So basically Monkey see, Monkey do, yeah bc that's original and exactly what everyone wants to see from one of the most beloved characters ever created. And of course no one want's to see super Saiyan God Jedi Luke Skywalker swinging the lightsaber killing all those in his path. Nah. But I can tell you that no one wants to see decrepit, space cow milking, cantankerous Luke Skywalker either.

The ball was dropped with this movie.

I love cranky Luke.

I never cared for him in the Legends continuity, except in Children of the Jedi.

I never saw him as the one going and training new Jedi. I saw him broken after RotJ. All that effort to save his father and he dies anyway. Yes, Vader "turned" but he never "atoned." I saw a Luke at the end of RotJ that was losing his will to fight. He surrendered, twice, and had Vader not turned on the Emperor, was going to die at peace. He fought back before but I think with Ben, Luke had fought back one too many times and decided to run and die an old man. He carried the shame of being Vader's son, guilt for ruining Leia's life, and guilt for not being able to save Ben Solo. The fact that he never destroyed the old texts after shutting himself off from the Force tells me he was one day hoping somebody was going to come and fix the Jedi. But it clearly wasn't him. Luke was broken and hoping to die in peace. Which he finally got but only through sacrifice.

I really never saw a possible outcome of those combined traumas being Jedi Master Luke. I always saw it as either, a) Luke goes dark but somebody new or his sister brings him back or b) Luke tries to find new Jedi but ends up just hiding till somebody new brings him out.

And I know I'm not alone in that thought.

Luke is finally interesting, not the deus ex machina of Star Wars.

[QUOTE=BeastieRunner;4138677]I love cranky Luke.

I never cared for him in the Legends continuity, except in Children of the Jedi.

I never saw him as the one going and training new Jedi. I saw him broken after RotJ. All that effort to save his father and he dies anyway. Yes, Vader "turned" but he never "atoned." I saw a Luke at the end of RotJ that was losing his will to fight. He surrendered, twice, and had Vader not turned on the Emperor, was going to die at peace. He fought back before but I think with Ben, Luke had fought back one too many times and decided to run and die an old man. He carried the shame of being Vader's son, guilt for ruining Leia's life, and guilt for not being able to save Ben Solo. The fact that he never destroyed the old texts after shutting himself off from the Force tells me he was one day hoping somebody was going to come and fix the Jedi. But it clearly wasn't him. Luke was broken and hoping to die in peace. Which he finally got but only through sacrifice.

I really never saw a possible outcome of those combined traumas being Jedi Master Luke. I always saw it as either, a) Luke goes dark but somebody new or his sister brings him back or b) Luke tries to find new Jedi but ends up just hiding till somebody new brings him out.

And I know I'm not alone in that thought.

Luke is finally interesting, not the deus ex machina of Star Wars.[/QUOTE]


Dude. Cranky Luke was terrible.

Some of those legend stories were pretty good, might wanna try again.

Umm, you might also wanna go back and re-watch Return of the Jedi. Luke was not depressed or broken. He was happy that his father did atone/return to the light by killing the Emperor. That was point of that scene where he told Luke to take the Mask off. He was shedding the identity of Vader...to look upon his son with his own eyes instead of the eyes of the monster he became.

Luke was smiling too at the end where he saw his father as a force ghost rejoined with Obi Wan, and Yoda. Speaking of Yoda, Yoda even told him to pass on what he had learned so it was always intended for him to restart the Jedi Order. There was no guilt.

The ppl in charge of this new trilogy were trying to edgy and cool which nowadays means make everything dark and everything broody....just because, no good reason, just because. And I know that Star Wars can get dark at times but usually it's done well.


I always saw Luke re-starting the order by training a few Jedi and surprise......none of them turning dark or going over to the Sith. The Galaxy is in need of believing in hope and the Jedi....under Luke's guidance restoring that hope over the course of three movies.


And Deus Ex Machina? Did you not see the Last Jedi. Luke appearing and giving the Rebellion enough time to escape. If they were really trying to do something different then the rebellion would have died like they were supposed to in that cave. But no, Luke appeared and stalled just long enough for Rey to lift like a thousand rocks (Which she hasn't even had training on how to do ) and escape in the Millenium Falcon. Ugh....this movie.

^To be fair, in Legends, Luke did lose a lot of students to the dark side...although some made it back (Kyp Durron) others didn't ( The New Rebellion, Luke's role in the "Dark Forces" games etc) and then of course there's Ben/Kylo's counterpart, Jacen/Darth Caedus.

In fact, Luke had a number of students go nuts in the last Legends book series, and was actually exiled for it (although it eventually turned out to be some dark side monster or something)...although it wasn't a self-exile, and Luke used the opportunity to do some research.

Although Luke's appearance was also a distraction, there's a hint in TLJ's ending scene that his stand would also carry deeper meaning and inspiration, as the Canto Bight kids are recreating that scene with the figures.

"Spark that will burn the first order down" etc.

[QUOTE=the nomad;4139579]Dude. Cranky Luke was terrible.

Some of those legend stories were pretty good, might wanna try again.

Umm, you might also wanna go back and re-watch Return of the Jedi. Luke was not depressed or broken. He was happy that his father did atone/return to the light by killing the Emperor. That was point of that scene where he told Luke to take the Mask off. He was shedding the identity of Vader...to look upon his son with his own eyes instead of the eyes of the monster he became.

Luke was smiling too at the end where he saw his father as a force ghost rejoined with Obi Wan, and Yoda. Speaking of Yoda, Yoda even told him to pass on what he had learned so it was always intended for him to restart the Jedi Order. There was no guilt.

The ppl in charge of this new trilogy were trying to edgy and cool which nowadays means make everything dark and everything broody....just because, no good reason, just because. And I know that Star Wars can get dark at times but usually it's done well.


I always saw Luke re-starting the order by training a few Jedi and surprise......none of them turning dark or going over to the Sith. The Galaxy is in need of believing in hope and the Jedi....under Luke's guidance restoring that hope over the course of three movies.


And Deus Ex Machina? Did you not see the Last Jedi. Luke appearing and giving the Rebellion enough time to escape. If they were really trying to do something different then the rebellion would have died like they were supposed to in that cave. But no, Luke appeared and stalled just long enough for Rey to lift like a thousand rocks (Which she hasn't even had training on how to do ) and escape in the Millenium Falcon. Ugh....this movie.[/QUOTE]

I'm totally down for this debate. I'd appreciate it if you actually read what I wrote, though. ;)

I said I saw Luke broken after RotJ, not during it. I don't really see an outcome that makes sense other than what we have on film now. Leia was exiled from the New Republic for being outed as Vader's daughter and Ben turning dark was the final straw that broke Luke. The EU wasn't a thing when I first watched RotJ, so my mind's eye saw a very dark time ahead for the galaxy. Not 3 movies of Luke making a Jedi Academy with nobody turning to the dark side. That would be boring. Or another rehash of the OT which a lot of the EU books were. It would also fly in the face of Yoda and Ben's lessons to Luke. Restoring the Jedi Order was never the answer. Restoring balance is. And Yoda was still waiting on Luke to learn that in TLJ. Luke rebooting the Jedi always has been doomed to fail. It didn't work before and Luke's no better. Star Wars needs something new and TLJ finally gives us that.

And Vader never atoned. He didn't go around making all the wrongs he committed, right. He chucked Palpy down a shaft and told Luke he was right. He may have turned good in the end, but he never atoned for his mistakes. Maybe with Luke but not the other trillion people he wronged.

On DEX: I doubt the claim would be made if Luke showed up, fought Kylo, and did all the stuff Rey did in the TLJ. Because Luke's been SW's walking DEX since the first film. It's nice to see it be somebody else for a change. We had 3 films of Luke saving the day all the time, it's somebody else's turn.

On Legends: I take it back, other than Children of the Jedi, the only other Luke I enjoyed was Dark Empire. The EU solidified my love for all things Wedge. And the best parts of Legends always had nothing to do with the main cast. Coran, Wedge, Cole, "Ice Heart," Thrawn, Callista, Republic Commando, expanding the Mando culture, etc.

[QUOTE=BeastieRunner;4143343]I'm totally down for this debate. I'd appreciate it if you actually read what I wrote, though. ;)

I said I saw Luke broken after RotJ, not during it. I don't really see an outcome that makes sense other than what we have on film now. Leia was exiled from the New Republic for being outed as Vader's daughter and Ben turning dark was the final straw that broke Luke. The EU wasn't a thing when I first watched RotJ, so my mind's eye saw a very dark time ahead for the galaxy. Not 3 movies of Luke making a Jedi Academy with nobody turning to the dark side. That would be boring. Or another rehash of the OT which a lot of the EU books were. It would also fly in the face of Yoda and Ben's lessons to Luke. Restoring the Jedi Order was never the answer. Restoring balance is. And Yoda was still waiting on Luke to learn that in TLJ. Luke rebooting the Jedi always has been doomed to fail. It didn't work before and Luke's no better. Star Wars needs something new and TLJ finally gives us that.

And Vader never atoned. He didn't go around making all the wrongs he committed, right. He chucked Palpy down a shaft and told Luke he was right. He may have turned good in the end, but he never atoned for his mistakes. Maybe with Luke but not the other trillion people he wronged.

On DEX: I doubt the claim would be made if Luke showed up, fought Kylo, and did all the stuff Rey did in the TLJ. Because Luke's been SW's walking DEX since the first film. It's nice to see it be somebody else for a change. We had 3 films of Luke saving the day all the time, it's somebody else's turn.

On Legends: I take it back, other than Children of the Jedi, the only other Luke I enjoyed was Dark Empire. The EU solidified my love for all things Wedge. And the best parts of Legends always had nothing to do with the main cast. Coran, Wedge, Cole, "Ice Heart," Thrawn, Callista, Republic Commando, expanding the Mando culture, etc.[/QUOTE]


I did read what you wrote. It still didn't make sense to me. :D

I kinda think you're splitting hairs, b/c During the end/after the credits role of Return of the Jedi I think it's safe to surmise that going forward he was not broken. He was Happy and content. He had his friends (Hand and Chewie, Lando, Wedge), His family (Leia) and the Force (Finally a Full Fledged after confronting and saving his father and the Last of the Jedi). He also got to see his father free of the evil and hate that had consumed him.

And there are at least 10 different ways the story could've gone in place of the questionable ideas that not only Rian Johnson but JJ abrams put forth. Also there was no where in the movies that explicitly stated that Leia was outed as Vader's daughter but even so she was also the daughter of Bail Organna who was beloved by the Republic and Rebellion.

I guess I'm a bit more on the optimistic side because I saw difficult times ahead but a very bright future. And just so you know Spending a whole movie looking for Luke is boring and Luke being locked away on an island doing nothing but being a hermit is boring too. So I mean it looks like no matter which way you slice boring is on the menu.
And Luke training Jedi would not be a rehash of the OT bc we never saw the nuts and bolts involved in raising an academy from the ground up. Or exactly show how recruiting someone with force abilities would work. Spending real time with characters and showing how the force can affect ppl different ways would make for an interesting story.

And if Luke would not have trained a whole academy in the 30 years after ROTJ, at least he could have trained one true and loyal apprentice. Yoda did explicitly state pass on what you have learned. It was never Luke's role to restore balance it was always Vader's mission (The prophecy). Luke's mission was shape the future for what came next at least that's what I believe.

The Last Jedi does not give us anything new.

Vader did atone by making the ultimate sacrifice, He gave up his life to kill the evil he helped to empower. Of course it would be impossible to for him to go door to door and tell ppl how sorry he is for what he has done. I hope that's not what you were expecting? In the end, he did the right thing and he restored balance.

Luke didn't have to be a Deus Ex-Machina in the Last Jedi, but the way the whole story was set up he was destined to be that way. If had been integrated into the story in the beginning then it could have potentially allowed some one else the time to shine.

Actually we only have one movie where Luke Shows up and saves the day, and that's a New Hope, but he did have some help from Han and Chewie. Empire he was soundly defeated by Vader and had to saved by Leia. Return of the Jedi, Vader killed the Emperor, again Luke had to be saved. Soooooo, there could be an argument for him not being a Deus Ex-Machina until the Last Jedi where it was done poorly.

Yeah Legends had some good stories.

I still feel really ambivalent about[B] The Last Jedi[/B]'s characterization of Luke. I feel like it's brilliantly executed. Mark Hamill gives one of his finest performances, arguably Oscar-worthy (especially given the character's 40 year baggage and Mark's creative disagreements about the script).

But I don't buy into the idea that Luke would truly think it best to stand by and do nothing while the space-Nazis take control of the galaxy.

I do think Luke is more interesting when he's somewhat broken, but there's A LOT of middle ground between the Legends version (essentially a superhero) and him being a complete wreck. In a perfect world, we'd see a Luke who's cynical and witty, but still fully involved in the fight against tyranny. Luke didn't have the baggage with the Jedi that the film seemed to imply, since he wasn't trained in the traditional way and achieved his greatest victory by turning Vader against Yoda and Obi-Wan's advice. Luke was the ideal figure to re-shape the Jedi Order in a way that dealt openly and honestly with their failures.

All that said, the climatic battle is Luke Skywalker's finest moment. One of my favorite scenes in the franchise.

Thanks for the read nomad. :) I think you're right about splitting hairs. One of the best parts of Star Wars to me has been these debates with fellow fans. A lot of what you said and I said is based on interpretation, which tells me the much maligned RotJ is a better film than most people give credit for.

I've always found Luke kind of boring. Cranky, broken Luke was a breath of fresh air to me. But Han and Wedge are my favorite characters in SW (with Poe and Snap quickly joining them), so perhaps I'm just not down with the Force users. I've really only ever like OT Yoda and Mace. PT Yoda seemed a bit off to me at times till RotS.

And I totally get and understand why superhero Luke is more well regarded and expected. That just would not float my boat.

[QUOTE=Buried Alien;3321652]This poll is for fans who have seen STAR WARS VIII: THE LAST JEDI.

How has this film affected your view of Luke Skywalker?

[Color=red]Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)[/color][/QUOTE]

Anything I or anyone else says here is from a certain point of view: our own.

Whether or not Luke Skywalker could degenerate into what we saw at the start of TLJ during the 30 years since we last saw him is purely a judgement call. I thought it worked but I can see why there are people, including Mark Hamill, who didn't find it believable.

It didn't change my view of Luke at all because he was what he was in the original trilogy and he was a very different character by TLJ. Some people would say he was a different character with the same name and others that he changed over 30 years. To me it's a bit of both.

[QUOTE=MASTER-OF-SUPRISE;4133187]The problem is we have to take Luke at his word which at this point isn't worth much when he has hidden key information before. Who's to say he isn't omitting more details. He's too unreliable of a narrator. I do agree that people shouldn't have to get information of a book. It's like having story elements for a game be DLC. Which has happened before and was BS then too. '[/QUOTE]

So, that's where you are coming from. Luke is an unreliable narrator. I don't know what to say. Its only speculation. I think he spoke the truth.

[Quote]
Here's my counter argument for each of those. Saying he regretted it is like saying it's okay to put a gun to a sleeping mans head if you regret it later. It's not okay this isn't like the Vader thing where you can lose focus in the heat of battle. [/Quote]

Forget the regret. Did he actually pull the trigger? Did he actually do it? I remember him stopping himself.

Luke is a changed man. Hero of the last war which destroyed almost everything. He tried to rebuild the galaxy. And here comes someone who will (or possibly will) do the same thing. It was almost like an impulse. An instinct. Before better sense prevailed.

Its not that Luke was planning to kill Kylo. It was fear. Which anyone can feel. Remember he lost control against Vader not exactly in the heat of the battle. But when Vader mentioned/threatened Leia. Fear often leads to anger.


[QUOTE]
Counter argument number 2. Was Luke right or jumping to conclusions? From my perspective it seems the latter is more likely. Sure it could be how you describe but it could also be that Kylo killed them in self defense. Now this next part is speculation but it is possible that they didn't believe Kylo's story then attacked. My point is we don't have any impartial word on what happened.

Also is it just me or does anyone else see Kylo's fate as a catch 22 situation for the story?[/QUOTE]

My point is that Luke was jumping to conclusions. But being a good man he stopped.

I think there's some weight to the catch 22 argument for Kylo. Even then Kylo's actions after that situation is of a 'wrong person' not of a 'wronged person'. If we take the argument that Luke's action was the trigger to his turn to the dark side, he still took the dark side.

Luke is somehow both right and wrong. He was right that Kylo would be scourge of the universe. But he was wrong in that he is in some part responsible for Kylo's turn.